Who was better in the Finals: 1st threepeat Pippen or threepeat Kobe?

[Ein Sof]

Context:

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons. TS% was 51.1. 2x all-defensive 1st team and 1x 2nd team.

Kobe Bryant averaged 22.0 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 14 games in the NBA Finals between the 1999-00 and 2002-03 seasons. TS% was 50.8. 2x all-defensive 2nd team.

Discuss.

[migya]

Pippen fairly easily. His defense on Magic in 91 is the best performance by either.

[Ian Scuffling]

Yeah, not a contest. Pippen.

[rk2023]

Context:

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons. TS% was 51.1. 2x all-defensive 1st team and 1x 2nd team.

Kobe Bryant averaged 22.0 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 14 games in the NBA Finals between the 1999-00 and 2002-03 seasons. TS% was 50.8. 2x all-defensive 2nd team.

Discuss.

Respectfully towards Pippen, Kobe was better in aggregate in my opinion - though the 2000 finals makes this somewhat closer a comparison. I don't see as listing the raw / game box scores as well as accolades as "context" here amidst making a direct comparison. Where I do agree is that Pippen is the vastly better defender here, even compared to 2000 Kobe - his apex on the defensive side of play.

For some context,

1. Opponent Data:

Spoiler:

Bulls:
1991 Lakers - 105.0 DRTG (5th), 85.8 Series Pace
1992 Blazers -104.2 DRTG (3rd), 92.3 Series Pace
1993 Suns - 106.7 DRTG (9th), 89.7 Series Pace

Lakers:
2000 Pacers - 103.6 DRTG (13th), 91.5 Series Pace
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRTG (5th), 89.6 Series Pace
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRTG (1st), 90.9 Series Pace

While the Bulls faced stringer competition in relative terms (higher SRS - as a proxy of such), LA played the three finals against better defenses in aggregate and in a more defensive slanted era than the early 1990s - even with using RS defensive ratings being somewhat a flawed approach. Aside from 1991, the pacers of both series were similar. This would have some impact towards box stats, where adjusting them (as well as True Shooting) for opponent would make a comparison less 'apples-to-oranges'.

2. Kobe's Stats:

Spoiler:

It is worth noting that across these three finals, the stats are heavily skewed by 2000 and one game out of a total of 14. Game two of the 2000 finals is where the cheap-shot from Jalen Rose took Kobe out. His stats in that game were 2 points in 9 total minutes. Without that, his scoring average in that particular finals goes up from 15.6 to 19 points. The efficiency in this series is nothing to write home about, but a decent share of explaining such result(s) can be attributed towards playing on one ankle. Same logic when removing that game from all of 2000 through 2002, and the per game average for points goes from 22 to 23.5.

The 50.1% True Shooting in the 2001 finals isn't exactly some efficacious showing either, but it's not close to as detrimental as some may make it out to be. Game 1 (the illustrious showing from Iverson and PHL) was horrendous for Kobe standards, as he put up a 15/3/5 with 6 TOV, 33.4% TS amidst a triumphant 76ers win. After that, Kobe was pretty solid - averaging 27/9/6 on 53.9% TS against a pretty stellar defense... all while the Lakers went on to backdoor sweep with an average MOV of 10. In 2002, Kobe was pretty efficacious with 27/5.8/5.3 on 62.3%TS against the #1 defense in the league.

For sake of comparison and understanding how these box stats were arrived at, I am aware that both of them to some extent benefitted from being the 2nd options on offense - but I think the gap in offense in Kobe's favor outweighs the defensive gap in Pippen's favor when solely looking at the respective three finals series they played in.

[OhayoKD]

Context:

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons. TS% was 51.1. 2x all-defensive 1st team and 1x 2nd team.

Kobe Bryant averaged 22.0 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 14 games in the NBA Finals between the 1999-00 and 2002-03 seasons. TS% was 50.8. 2x all-defensive 2nd team.

Discuss.

Respectfully towards Pippen, Kobe was better in aggregate in my opinion - though the 2000 finals makes this somewhat closer a comparison. I don't see as listing the raw / game box scores as well as accolades as "context" here amidst making a direct comparison. Where I do agree is that Pippen is the vastly better defender here, even compared to 2000 Kobe - his apex on the defensive side of play.

For some context,

1. Opponent Data:

Spoiler:

Bulls:
1991 Lakers - 105.0 DRTG (5th), 85.8 Series Pace
1992 Blazers -104.2 DRTG (3rd), 92.3 Series Pace
1993 Suns - 106.7 DRTG (9th), 89.7 Series Pace

Lakers:
2000 Pacers - 103.6 DRTG (13th), 91.5 Series Pace
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRTG (5th), 89.6 Series Pace
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRTG (1st), 90.9 Series Pace

While the Bulls faced stringer competition in relative terms (higher SRS - as a proxy of such), LA played the three finals against better defenses in aggregate and in a more defensive slanted era than the early 1990s - even with using RS defensive ratings being somewhat a flawed approach. Aside from 1991, the pacers of both series were similar. This would have some impact towards box stats, where adjusting them (as well as True Shooting) for opponent would make a comparison less 'apples-to-oranges'.

2. Kobe's Stats:

Spoiler:

It is worth noting that across these three finals, the stats are heavily skewed by 2000 and one game out of a total of 14. Game two of the 2000 finals is where the cheap-shot from Jalen Rose took Kobe out. His stats in that game were 2 points in 9 total minutes. Without that, his scoring average in that particular finals goes up from 15.6 to 19 points. The efficiency in this series is nothing to write home about, but a decent share of explaining such result(s) can be attributed towards playing on one ankle. Same logic when removing that game from all of 2000 through 2002, and the per game average for points goes from 22 to 23.5.

The 50.1% True Shooting in the 2001 finals isn't exactly some efficacious showing either, but it's not close to as detrimental as some may make it out to be. Game 1 (the illustrious showing from Iverson and PHL) was horrendous for Kobe standards, as he put up a 15/3/5 with 6 TOV, 33.4% TS amidst a triumphant 76ers win. After that, Kobe was pretty solid - averaging 27/9/6 on 53.9% TS against a pretty stellar defense... all while the Lakers went on to backdoor sweep with an average MOV of 10. In 2002, Kobe was pretty efficacious with 27/5.8/5.3 on 62.3%TS against the #1 defense in the league.

For sake of comparison and understanding how these box stats were arrived at, I am aware that both of them to some extent benefitted from being the 2nd options on offense - but I think the gap in offense in Kobe's favor outweighs the defensive gap in Pippen's favor when solely looking at the respective three finals series they played in.

The context is nice, but none of this actually leads to "kobe offense outweighed pippen's defense"

[rk2023]

Context:

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons. TS% was 51.1. 2x all-defensive 1st team and 1x 2nd team.

Kobe Bryant averaged 22.0 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 14 games in the NBA Finals between the 1999-00 and 2002-03 seasons. TS% was 50.8. 2x all-defensive 2nd team.

Discuss.

Respectfully towards Pippen, Kobe was better in aggregate in my opinion - though the 2000 finals makes this somewhat closer a comparison. I don't see as listing the raw / game box scores as well as accolades as "context" here amidst making a direct comparison. Where I do agree is that Pippen is the vastly better defender here, even compared to 2000 Kobe - his apex on the defensive side of play.

For some context,

1. Opponent Data:

Spoiler:

Bulls:
1991 Lakers - 105.0 DRTG (5th), 85.8 Series Pace
1992 Blazers -104.2 DRTG (3rd), 92.3 Series Pace
1993 Suns - 106.7 DRTG (9th), 89.7 Series Pace

Lakers:
2000 Pacers - 103.6 DRTG (13th), 91.5 Series Pace
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRTG (5th), 89.6 Series Pace
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRTG (1st), 90.9 Series Pace

While the Bulls faced stringer competition in relative terms (higher SRS - as a proxy of such), LA played the three finals against better defenses in aggregate and in a more defensive slanted era than the early 1990s - even with using RS defensive ratings being somewhat a flawed approach. Aside from 1991, the pacers of both series were similar. This would have some impact towards box stats, where adjusting them (as well as True Shooting) for opponent would make a comparison less 'apples-to-oranges'.

2. Kobe's Stats:

Spoiler:

It is worth noting that across these three finals, the stats are heavily skewed by 2000 and one game out of a total of 14. Game two of the 2000 finals is where the cheap-shot from Jalen Rose took Kobe out. His stats in that game were 2 points in 9 total minutes. Without that, his scoring average in that particular finals goes up from 15.6 to 19 points. The efficiency in this series is nothing to write home about, but a decent share of explaining such result(s) can be attributed towards playing on one ankle. Same logic when removing that game from all of 2000 through 2002, and the per game average for points goes from 22 to 23.5.

The 50.1% True Shooting in the 2001 finals isn't exactly some efficacious showing either, but it's not close to as detrimental as some may make it out to be. Game 1 (the illustrious showing from Iverson and PHL) was horrendous for Kobe standards, as he put up a 15/3/5 with 6 TOV, 33.4% TS amidst a triumphant 76ers win. After that, Kobe was pretty solid - averaging 27/9/6 on 53.9% TS against a pretty stellar defense... all while the Lakers went on to backdoor sweep with an average MOV of 10. In 2002, Kobe was pretty efficacious with 27/5.8/5.3 on 62.3%TS against the #1 defense in the league.

For sake of comparison and understanding how these box stats were arrived at, I am aware that both of them to some extent benefitted from being the 2nd options on offense - but I think the gap in offense in Kobe's favor outweighs the defensive gap in Pippen's favor when solely looking at the respective three finals series they played in.

The context is nice, but none of this actually leads to "kobe offense outweighed pippen's defense"

I stated that's my opinion, If you or anyone else would like to refute it.. I welcome such rhetoric.

[OhayoKD]

Respectfully towards Pippen, Kobe was better in aggregate in my opinion - though the 2000 finals makes this somewhat closer a comparison. I don't see as listing the raw / game box scores as well as accolades as "context" here amidst making a direct comparison. Where I do agree is that Pippen is the vastly better defender here, even compared to 2000 Kobe - his apex on the defensive side of play.

For some context,

1. Opponent Data:

Spoiler:

Bulls:
1991 Lakers - 105.0 DRTG (5th), 85.8 Series Pace
1992 Blazers -104.2 DRTG (3rd), 92.3 Series Pace
1993 Suns - 106.7 DRTG (9th), 89.7 Series Pace

Lakers:
2000 Pacers - 103.6 DRTG (13th), 91.5 Series Pace
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRTG (5th), 89.6 Series Pace
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRTG (1st), 90.9 Series Pace

While the Bulls faced stringer competition in relative terms (higher SRS - as a proxy of such), LA played the three finals against better defenses in aggregate and in a more defensive slanted era than the early 1990s - even with using RS defensive ratings being somewhat a flawed approach. Aside from 1991, the pacers of both series were similar. This would have some impact towards box stats, where adjusting them (as well as True Shooting) for opponent would make a comparison less 'apples-to-oranges'.

2. Kobe's Stats:

Spoiler:

It is worth noting that across these three finals, the stats are heavily skewed by 2000 and one game out of a total of 14. Game two of the 2000 finals is where the cheap-shot from Jalen Rose took Kobe out. His stats in that game were 2 points in 9 total minutes. Without that, his scoring average in that particular finals goes up from 15.6 to 19 points. The efficiency in this series is nothing to write home about, but a decent share of explaining such result(s) can be attributed towards playing on one ankle. Same logic when removing that game from all of 2000 through 2002, and the per game average for points goes from 22 to 23.5.

The 50.1% True Shooting in the 2001 finals isn't exactly some efficacious showing either, but it's not close to as detrimental as some may make it out to be. Game 1 (the illustrious showing from Iverson and PHL) was horrendous for Kobe standards, as he put up a 15/3/5 with 6 TOV, 33.4% TS amidst a triumphant 76ers win. After that, Kobe was pretty solid - averaging 27/9/6 on 53.9% TS against a pretty stellar defense... all while the Lakers went on to backdoor sweep with an average MOV of 10. In 2002, Kobe was pretty efficacious with 27/5.8/5.3 on 62.3%TS against the #1 defense in the league.

For sake of comparison and understanding how these box stats were arrived at, I am aware that both of them to some extent benefitted from being the 2nd options on offense - but I think the gap in offense in Kobe's favor outweighs the defensive gap in Pippen's favor when solely looking at the respective three finals series they played in.

The context is nice, but none of this actually leads to "kobe offense outweighed pippen's defense"

I stated that's my opinion, If you or anyone else would like to refute it.. I welcome such rhetoric.

What am I refuting here? Pippen's argument would be similar box+better defense = better finals. As you acknowledge it was Pippen who faced tougher competition. If Kobe's defensive competition was stronger, that would mean the offensive competition was weaker(Notably the 91 finals swung with Pippen becoming a certain Magic Johnson's primary defender.)

Also seems disingenuous to me to filter out games for Kobe but not do the same for scott

[Cavsfansince84]

Ya I'd have to give this to Pippen. Kobe I would say had one very good finals(02), one ok one(01) and then one terrible one(00). In the scope of overall playoffs it probably shifts to Kobe but in just finals I think its definitely Pippen.

[TheGOATRises007]

I think people should go back and watch the '91 finals if they think Pippen was guarding Magic for the majority of the series after game 1.

It's a myth that's blown up a lot. Jordan was guarding him for the majority of the series. There's been numerous threads on reddit that even debunk the myth that Pippen was Magic's primary defender for that series. If there was a tracker of primary man defender, I'm pretty sure Jordan would have 75% of it on Magic and Pippen 25%.

That series swung with the Bulls just being a much better team than the Lakers and crushing them after game 1.

As for the question: Pippen is more consistent while Kobe peaks higher and has bigger lows.

[OhayoKD]

I think people should go back and watch the '91 finals if they think Pippen was guarding Magic for the majority of the series after game 1.

It's a myth that's blown up a lot. Jordan was guarding him for the majority of the series. There's been numerous threads on reddit that even debunk the myth that Pippen was Magic's primary defender for that series. If there was a tracker of primary man defender, I'm pretty sure Jordan would have 75% of it on Magic and Pippen 25%.

That series swung with the Bulls just being a much better team than the Lakers and crushing them after game 1.

As for the question: Pippen is more consistent while Kobe peaks higher and has bigger lows.

You should tell magic that

In seirousness, Pippen absolutely took over as the "primary" in game 2(if you don't trust my recollection there are a bunch of game reports that corraboratin). It's plausible that was a game-specifc response to Jordan being in foul-trouble, but either way the Bulls switched to trapping him more after just going man to man in 1. As worthy was hobbled, forcing Magic to pass worked pretty well and whoever was the "primary", Pippen's size was the centerpiece, much like with Gasol and Giannis(not to mention Scottie being their primary defensive coordinator).

[TheGOATRises007]

I think people should go back and watch the '91 finals if they think Pippen was guarding Magic for the majority of the series after game 1.

It's a myth that's blown up a lot. Jordan was guarding him for the majority of the series. There's been numerous threads on reddit that even debunk the myth that Pippen was Magic's primary defender for that series. If there was a tracker of primary man defender, I'm pretty sure Jordan would have 75% of it on Magic and Pippen 25%.

That series swung with the Bulls just being a much better team than the Lakers and crushing them after game 1.

As for the question: Pippen is more consistent while Kobe peaks higher and has bigger lows.

You should tell magic that

In seirousness, Pippen absolutely took over as the "primary" in game 2(if you don't trust my recollection there are a bunch of game reports that corraboratin). It's plausible that was a game-specifc response to Jordan being in foul-trouble, but either way the Bulls switched to trapping him more after just going man to man in 1. As worthy was hobbled, forcing Magic to pass worked pretty well and whoever was the "primary", Pippen's size was the centerpiece, much like with Gasol and Giannis(not to mention Scottie being their primary defensive coordinator).

He was only the 'primary' defender in game 2.

All the other games, MJ was still the 'primary' defender.

[Ein Sof]

Kobe's offense doesn't even outweigh Pippen's offense. Let alone his defense.

[TheGOATRises007]

Kobe's offense doesn't even outweigh Pippen's offense. Let alone his defense.

What's the argument for Pippen being better offensively during the 3-peat?

[Kobeshow]

The thread title is written in a very specific way to make Kobe look bad: as he was "Jalen Rosed", he left the court in Game 2 of the 2000 Finals after 2 minutes, his stats from that series are skewed. He missed Game 3 because of injury, but still basically won the Series for the Lakers with a legendary Game 4 performance in Indianapolis with Shaq in foul trouble

But Pippen never could dream about doing this, let alone at 22 years old...

The Western Conference Finals were the real "Finals" for the Lakers 2000-2002, everyone knows it

[Ein Sof]

The thread title is written in a very specific way to make Kobe look bad: as he was "Jalen Rosed", he left the court in Game 2 of the 2000 Finals after 2 minutes, his stats from that series are skewed. He missed Game 3 because of injury, but still basically won the Series for the Lakers with a legendary Game 4 performance in Indianapolis with Shaq in foul trouble

But Pippen never could dream about doing this, let alone at 22 years old...

The Western Conference Finals were the real "Finals" for the Lakers 2000-2002, everyone knows it

Oh, I see. How many FMVPs did he get in the Western Conference Finals?

[One_and_Done]

You talk about the OP skewing the discussion by selecting the finals, but the Spurs had a trash wing/guard rotation in 01, so selecting that series is overly favourable the other direction. Just use holistic playoff stats from the 3 years.

[OhayoKD]

The thread title is written in a very specific way to make Kobe look bad: as he was "Jalen Rosed", he left the court in Game 2 of the 2000 Finals after 2 minutes, his stats from that series are skewed. He missed Game 3 because of injury, but still basically won the Series for the Lakers with a legendary Game 4 performance in Indianapolis with Shaq in foul trouble

But Pippen never could dream about doing this, let alone at 22 years old...

The Western Conference Finals were the real "Finals" for the Lakers 2000-2002, everyone knows it

not in 2000

[D.Brasco]

They should be compared on a year by year basis, as Kobe was still in his development but improving fast:

1991 Pippen-2000 Kobe

1992 Pippen-2001 Kobe

1993 Pippen-2002 Kobe