10 years later, how do you evaluate LeBron's 2013 Playoffs?

ardee · Post #1 » by **ardee** » Wed May 24, 2023 10:11 am

That year has gotten a lot of flak at times for his relatively less eye-popping raw numbers in the Playoffs compared to his other top seasons (2009, 2012, 2016-18), and I myself have always eliminated it from contention as his peak year.

The more I think about it though, the more it feels like once you apply proper context it wasn't really the extreme underperformance people think it is. Sure, it didn't reach the ridiculous standards of his regular season that year, but it feels good enough that 2013 could still definitely be called his peak.

Breaking it down (keep in mind his DEFENSE was spectacular throughout, we're mainly judging offense here since that is what gets criticized):

1st round vs Bucks (12th ranked defense): Pretty much murdered them. 25/8/7 on 68% TS in a four game sweep with an average MOV of +14.8. Can't really pick nits with this one, with how much of a blowout every game was he just didn't need to do more.

2nd round vs Bulls (6th ranked defense): This was a relative under-performance, yes. 24/7/8 on 57% TS being guarded by Jimmy Butler. Says a lot about what this guy is right? Backdoor sweep, average MOV for the wins at 15.8 and for the series at 11.2. Again, it's only really BAD by his own RS standards, and again, the margins of victory definitely impacted how much production was needed from him (once again, he was also guarded by Jimmy Butler).

3rd round vs Pacers (1st ranked defense): I think this is actually one of the most underrated series' of his career. He averaged 29-7-5 on 60% TS against a -6.1 defense, being guarded by no less than Paul George. He also SHUT DOWN George on the other end for multiple games, taking his defense to a new level. This was without a doubt his best series that year and maybe top 8 in his career.

Finals vs Spurs (3rd ranked defense): This was a mixed series for him. The Spurs started out guarding him well and formed a wall around the paint, forcing him to rely on his jumper while being guarded by Kawhi. For the first 3 games, it didn't work out, he was 17/12/7 on 44% TS. Then for the last 4, he began to find his jumper, finishing the series with 32/10/7 (with 3 spg) on 58% TS. Game 7 was in particular was a historic performance: 37/12/4 on 70% TS (again, vs this elite Spurs defense).

To compare: here's how Jordan performed against the 1993 Knicks: first 3 games: 28/6/6 on 46% TS. Last 3 games: 36/6/8 on 58% TS.

Curry in 2016 vs the Thunder: first 4 games: 24/6/6 on 58% TS (1-3 record), last 3 games: 33/7/8 on 65% TS (3-0 record).

The way I see it: great players tend to get credit if they struggle at first vs a historic defense as long as they figure it out and still manage to win the series. Very few people remember that Jordan was down 0-2 in that Knicks series or that Steph was down 1-3, because they got their **** together and won in the end.

I feel like LeBron gets an unfair standard applied to him here, because that's the same thing that happened to him. He was absolutely dominant in the last 4 games being guarded by an all-time level wing defender.

Not to mention during ALL this LeBron's second option was completely crippled and a lot of the time he had basically no offensive support.

I think here's the greater context for this run: he had 2.5 GOAT level series' (Bucks, Pacers and the back half of the Spurs), 1 decent series (Bulls) and 0.5 meh series (first half of the Spurs).

To me, that makes for a damn good run still and honestly his 6th best run at worst (I think only 2009, 2012, 2016-18 can be argued as better). And none of those seasons was he better in the RS than 2013 except for 2009.

LukaTheGOAT · Post #2 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Wed May 24, 2023 12:26 pm

A lot of what people remember about a PS run, is often the final series. It leaves a lasting impression. The fact that the favored Heat got pushed to 7, and Lebron's overall numbers didn't look great, do stick in people's minds.

What sticks out to me moreso, is that Lebron perhaps didn't pick the best spots to attack at times with Wade on the court, or was to willing to defer.

Looking at the numbers with Wade off, Lebron does still look like a GOAT floor-raiser.

LeBron with Wade off the floor during the 2013 Playoffs (282 minute sample):

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST/75
• 8.6 REB/75
• 1.8 STL/75
• 1.2 BLK/75 (0.9 blocks at the RIM)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (best all-time)

It is not so much that Lebron isn't still an all-time offensive player while functioning more as an off-ball wing. He still is terrific. It's just Lebron with the ball in his hands can arguably take a team to heights we have never seen before. Lebron's scoring is Jordan-level of volume, and this was seen not only in 09, 10, and his Miami days, but also his Cleveland days without Kyrie. Lebron tends to he more willing to defer than Jordan probably is with another all-star talent. However, Lebron shines brightest probably when he takes things in his own hands.

This is a trend that held up throughout his time in Miami too. For example,

LeBron James w/o Wade on court in the playoffs from 2012-14 (707 minutes):

•) 36.5 IA points per 75
•) 6.7 IA assists per 75
•) 59.0 TS% (+5.7 rTS%)

tone wone · Post #3 » by **tone wone** » Wed May 24, 2023 9:07 pm

That Pacers series is probably better than any series in 2015 and 2020. It's crazy impressive. It's not flawless...those 2 turnovers late in game 2 were pretty bad and losing homecourt is probably why that series went 7 which bled into them losing game 1 against SA.

Scoring bias and 2 unexpected game 7s really hurt the perception of that run. It's sandwiched between a 2012 run that felt heroic and a 2014 run that saw him score with such ease. 2013 felt labored and disappointing by comparison.

Overall, his finishing was way down the postseason which is what drags his scoring numbers down.

Ultimately, they did win a title and he had a great close to game 6 and a fantastic game 7 so while it doesn't garner the praise other runs get, its still great.

Now 2011, that's the season that gets completely dismissed. It's the most interesting year of career but gets reduced to Finals slander.

ShotCreator · Post #4 » by **ShotCreator** » Wed May 24, 2023 9:11 pm

He was fine. Gas tank and therefore defense was diminished from the year before.

His offense was really strong. Not a regular level of offensive ability. I would say 13 LeBron is as good as later prime Curry year offensively. A 21 Curry. A peak Harden. First MVP Jokic. Just really really high level offense. Rare offense.

But he was 270 pounds trying to guard the perimeter. 13 LeBron was just dead if you put a screen in his way. His mobility was iffy with certain movements. Full court sprint? Sure. A drop step, a hop step, any pivot move to create space and finish? Ridiculously explosive.

Guarding a closeout? Reaction to a shifty ballhandler? And like I said, fighting through screens? Noooo.

Paul George who wasn't even all-star level yet, had a very good comfortable series getting defended by LeBron. Just taking him off the dribble getting good separation. He was in hell against NY and ATL in previous rounds.

Just a decent defender overall IMHO. I want to note his reactions and awareness on help defense was extremely sharp against SA in the finals Especially the last few games.

I don't see how anyone could possibly think 13 LeBron's run wasn't fantastic. I only made this post because if anything it's overrated a tad to me. I'm not sure he has any under the radar runs that were just really good and it's not recognized. Maybe people don't understand the gravity of his 2012 defense and motor. I don't honestly know the weight difference.

Because I do feel 2013 LeBron seemed just stronger, at least offensively. I don't know the diet, injuries, etc. But he was much lighter on his feet in 2012. Closing out and changing directions was much more seamless. And he seemed to have much better endurance.

2012 LeBron had the confidence to guard Durant very closely, peak Tony Allen and CP3 close and not be beaten off the dribble.

Meanwhile a version of Paul George that's just a decent NBA starter gets highlight reel dunks and pulls up over him without issue? That's a big gap in ability.

2012 LeBron was something else. Very high level and he did it for 100 games on both ends.

eminence · Post #5 » by **eminence** » Wed May 24, 2023 9:14 pm

I had not heard many of these criticisms, wasn't around these parts at the time, I have LeBrons 2013 as a very top tier season.

70sFan · Post #6 » by **70sFan** » Wed May 24, 2023 9:34 pm

It's among the best seasons in James career, meaning it's one of the best seasons ever. Personally, I have 2012 ahead of if, but they are close.

ardee · Post #7 » by **ardee** » Wed May 24, 2023 10:01 pm

ShotCreator wrote:He was fine. Gas tank and therefore defense was diminished from the year before.

His offense was really strong. Not a regular level of offensive ability. I would say 13 LeBron is as good as later prime Curry year offensively. A 21 Curry. A peak Harden. First MVP Jokic. Just really really high level offense. Rare offense.

But he was 270 pounds trying to guard the perimeter. 13 LeBron was just dead if you put a screen in his way. His mobility was iffy with certain movements. Full court sprint? Sure. A drop step, a hop step, any pivot move to create space and finish? Ridiculously explosive.

Guarding a closeout? Reaction to a shifty ballhandler? And like I said, fighting through screens? Noooo.

Paul George who wasn't even all-star level yet, had a very good comfortable series getting defended by LeBron. Just taking him off the dribble getting good separation. He was in hell against NY and ATL in previous rounds.

Just a decent defender overall IMHO. I want to note his reactions and awareness on help defense was extremely sharp against SA in the finals Especially the last few games.

I don't see how anyone could possibly think 13 LeBron's run wasn't fantastic. I only made this post because if anything it's overrated a tad to me. I'm not sure he has any under the radar runs that were just really good and it's not recognized. Maybe people don't understand the gravity of his 2012 defense and motor. I don't honestly know the weight difference.

Because I do feel 2013 LeBron seemed just stronger, at least offensively. I don't know the diet, injuries, etc. But he was much lighter on his feet in 2012. Closing out and changing directions was much more seamless. And he seemed to have much better endurance.

2012 LeBron had the confidence to guard Durant very closely, peak Tony Allen and CP3 close and not be beaten off the dribble.

Meanwhile a version of Paul George that's just a decent NBA starter gets highlight reel dunks and pulls up over him without issue? That's a big gap in ability.

2012 LeBron was something else. Very high level and he did it for 100 games on both ends.

Regarding your point about PG, from memory LeBron guarded him full time for 2 games: game 3 and game 7. He went 3-10 and 2-9 in those two games.

He was probably better defensively in '12 but remember again he didn't have the same offensive load he did in '13 because Wade as actually relatively healthy for the business end of the 2012 run.

OhayoKD · Post #8 » by **OhayoKD** » Thu May 25, 2023 6:50 am

tone wone wrote:That Pacers series is probably better than any series in 2015 and 2020. It's crazy impressive. It's not flawless...those 2 turnovers late in game 2 were pretty bad and losing homecourt is probably why that series went 7 which bled into them losing game 1 against SA.

Scoring bias and 2 unexpected game 7s really hurt the perception of that run. It's sandwiched between a 2012 run that felt heroic and a 2014 run that saw him score with such ease. 2013 felt labored and disappointing by comparison.

Overall, his finishing was way down the postseason which is what drags his scoring numbers down.

Ultimately, they did win a title and he had a great close to game 6 and a fantastic game 7 so while it doesn't garner the praise other runs get, its still great.

Now 2011, that's the season that gets completely dismissed. It's the most interesting year of career but gets reduced to Finals slander.

There's also the Spurs load-managing. In truth they were a 89/90 pistons level opponent when they played their starters. Beating them at all is extremely impressive, especially considering the state of wade's legs.

NbaAllDay · Post #9 » by **NbaAllDay** » Thu May 25, 2023 8:08 am

Something to consider.
Avg pace in 2013 playoffs was around 95. Miami 97.
2016 - avg 100, Cavs 105.

Scoring was just low in general. The playoffs felt like very defensive focused afair because the 3 point rates wernt what the were going to be within the next 2 years.

Looking back, the offense took a notable hit with Wade's diminished play, and Bosh being a little more one dimensional. That team was not the Super team people make out that 4 yesr run to be, and it was clear Lebron saw additional coverage because of the additional offensive load he took on.

He was also there D quarterback and couldn't take the plays off like he could afford on O in previous years.

People underestimate how many massive games he had to have through 2012 and 2013 just to advance.

His team was arguably a better fit when he moved to Cleveland so

TLDR he had a bigger load post 2012 and his raw stata don't reflect his impact imo.

kayess · Post #10 » by **kayess** » Thu May 25, 2023 4:44 pm

tone wone wrote:Scoring bias and 2 unexpected game 7s really hurt the perception of that run. It's sandwiched between a 2012 run that felt heroic and a 2014 run that saw him score with such ease. 2013 felt labored and disappointing by comparison.

It "suffers" even more now when you look at what he was able to do in 2016, 2018. And it makes you wonder - after a season of being an excellent jump shooter why was he suddenly so hesitant up until late in the series? Just baffling. I still don't know, tbh - was he just in his own head, overthinking what he needed to do to beat the Spurs coverage? Did he get '07F flashbacks?

In many ways it was truly in-between: when he was on, it felt like a precursor to 2014's absolutely wet jumper; and when he was off, he always had the absolute grit and "garbageman do everything" mode from 2012.

I remember thinking this was peak LeBron and then 2016 and 2018 happened (and the tons of arguments around - his O and D just never peaked at the same time and 2013 was the closest yadda yadda). I would probably now take a handful years (mostly years he either had a better command of the game and/or a better jumpshot) over him, but it's still funny how it's kinda gotten lost in the sea of all-time LeBron seasons.

No-more-rings · Post #11 » by **No-more-rings** » Thu May 25, 2023 5:09 pm

I think a lot of what you say is about right, I disagree a little on some things but sure it was still a great playoff run just not a goat level one like some of his others. It’s still hard for me to look past how much trouble he had scoring against 21 year old Kawhi and the Spurs wall they put up. The Spurs were also great, but not an historical juggernaut. Yeah he got hot and figured them out in game 7 but we were awfully close to them not even making it to a game 7. The context and all that matters, but it’s just hard to look past how much he was struggling through 6 games, and some of the games he was looking like 2011 Lebron. It’s hard to imagine that happening to a slew of other Lebron years.

OhayoKD · Post #12 » by **OhayoKD** » Thu May 25, 2023 6:49 pm

No-more-rings wrote:I think a lot of what you say is about right, I disagree a little on some things but sure it was still a great playoff run just not a goat level one like some of his others. It’s still hard for me to look past how much trouble he had scoring against 21 year old Kawhi and the Spurs wall they put up. The Spurs were also great, but not an historical juggernaut. Yeah he got hot and figured them out in game 7 but we were awfully close to them not even making it to a game 7. The context and all that matters, but it’s just hard to look past how much he was struggling through 6 games, and some of the games he was looking like 2011 Lebron. It’s hard to imagine that happening to a slew of other Lebron years.

They kinda were though

Sansterre wrote:Playoff Offensive Rating: +4.58 (60th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.25 (26th)
Playoff SRS: +13.07 (25th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +4.11 (21st)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.45 (45th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.78 (55th)

They load-managed during the regular season...

homecourtloss wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:let's be frank, now we're all dying to know how far from 2013 MIA Sansterre has placed 2013 SAS

Homecourtloss wrote:Duncan, 69 games, 30 minutes per game
Parker, 66 games, 33 minutes per game
Manu, 60 games, 23 minutes per game (27 mpg in playoffs)
Kawhi, 58 games, 31 minutes per game
Green, 80 games, 28 minutes per game
Splitter, 81 games, 25 minutes per game
Diaw, 75 games, 23 minutes per game

With this many missed games and so few minutes played, to post a +6.7 SRS, top 7 offense, top 3 defense is pretty wild. This was always a +8 SRS, 65 win type team masquerading as a 58 win, +6.7 SRS team.

...but they were an all-time buzzsaw when it was time to win:

Round 1: Los Angeles Lakers (+1.5), won 4-0, by +18.7 points per game (+20.2 SRS eq)
Round 2: Golden State Warriors (+4.1), won 4-2, by +3.8 points per game (+7.9 SRS eq)
Round 3: Memphis Grizzlies (+8.3), won 4-0, by +11.0 points per game (+19.3 SRS eq)
Round 4: Miami Heat (+9.2), lost 3-4, by +0.7 points per game (+9.9 SRS eq)

(Note how 2013 Miami/Lebron tanks their SRS?)

We can extend our sample with 2014:

Playoff Offensive Rating: +7.67 (22nd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -6.82 (31st)
Playoff SRS: +14.53 (9th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +4.32 (17th)
Shooting Advantage: +5.2%, Possession Advantage: -0.2 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +4.32 (5th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -0.17 (89th)

Round 1: Dallas Mavericks (+2.9), won 4-3, by +2.0 points per game (+4.9 SRS eq)
Round 2: Portland Trail Blazers (+4.6), won 4-1, by +13.4 points per game (+18.0 SRS eq)
Round 3: Oklahoma City Thunder (+7.5), won 4-2, by +10.5 pints per game (+18.0 SRS eq)
Round 4: Miami Heat (+6.4), won 4-1, by +14.0 points per game (+20.4 SRS eq)[/quote]
(Lebron/Miami help them here

)

For a comparison, let's check out the Bad Boy Pistons:

Playoff Offensive Rating: +1.74 (85th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -8.80 (11th)
Playoff SRS: +10.48 (52nd), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.20 (37th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.91 (29th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -0.14 (89th)

Round 1: Indiana Pacers (-0.2), won 3-0, by +12.3 points per game (+12.1 SRS eq)
Round 2: New York Knicks (+1.3), won 4-1, by +11.4 points per game (+12.7 SRS eq)
Round 3: Chicago Bulls (+5.5), won 4-3, by +3.0 points per game (+8.5 SRS eq)
Round 4: Portland Trail Blazers (+5.0), won 4-1, by +5.0 points per game (10.0 SRS eq)

(1990)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +5.71 (47th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -6.24 (34th)
Playoff SRS: +13.16 (24th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +4.10 (22nd)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.94 (27th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -0.31 (86th)

Playoff Heliocentrism: 25.0% (79th of 84 teams) - Isiah
Playoff Wingmen: 30.0% (73rd) - two of Dumars/Laimbeer/Salley
Playoff Depth: 45.0% (3rd)

Round 1: Boston Celtics (+1.3), won 3-0, by +10.7 points per game (+12.0 SRS eq)
Round 2: Milwaukee Bucks (+4.6), won 4-0, by +11.8 points per game (+16.4 SRS eq)
Round 3: Chicago Bulls (+5.1), won 4-2, by +4.2 points per game (+9.3 SRS eq)
Round 4: Los Angeles Lakers (+9.8), won 4-0, by +6.7 points per game (+16.5 SRS eq)

(1989)

Now, tbf, both the Pistons and Spurs see their srs boosted by injury(Magic misses most of the 89 finals, ibaka misses 14 wcf), nonetheless, the Spurs were by any reasonable standard, a juggernaut when Miami played them. In terms of playoff performance, they were probably on the same level as the 16 Warriors(if you want a number, the Warriors were +9.9 vs an OKC team whose record undersold them due KD missing time).

21 year old Kawhi and "the spurs wall" added up to a -7.25 playoff defense. Moreover wade had broken down with injuries(was getting his knees filled during the previous playoffs) turning what was supposed to be a superteam into a side that was averagish without Lebron:

From 12-14 Miami posted a net-rating of -3.5 in games without Lebron(7.5 with). In the title-winning years Miami were a +8.4 team with Lebron and a -2.5 team without. That actually looks like a 30ish win team rather than a 40ish won but presumably missed time and opponent quality shift the lebron-less heat towards neutrality with SRS.

Switching from WOWY, to lineup-ratings, the Heat were +11.04 with Lebron/Wade lineups, +2.7 with with Wade, no Lebron lineups, 10.87 with Lebron/Bosh lineups, -1.19 with Bosh, no Lebron lineups, +10.28 with the big-three, and -4.48 with the big-three minus Lebron. The heat were also +2.77 in lineups with Lebron and without Wade or bosh. Overall, Lebron lineups scored at +9.62 while Lebron-less lineups scored at +0.75

In the title-winning years, the Heat were -3.25 with just Wade and Bosh and +12 with all three, +5.88 with Lebron and no wade or bosh, and +0.48 without any of the big three. Overall, for 12 and 13, Lebron lineups scored at 11.96 while Lebron-less lineups were -0.36.

All considered, beating the Spurs at all is quite the accomplishment, and we probably are putting too much weight on scoring. Lebron still created more than anyone else on both teams, he had the best turnover economy despite making the most shot attempts, the most plays, and handling the ball more than anyone else, he directed his team on both ends, and was the best or 2nd best defender on either team.

That may not be the best by the standard of Lebron, but it absolutely holds up against anyone else(russell excepted)

ShotCreator wrote:He was fine. Gas tank and therefore defense was diminished from the year before.

His offense was really strong. Not a regular level of offensive ability. I would say 13 LeBron is as good as later prime Curry year offensively. A 21 Curry. A peak Harden. First MVP Jokic. Just really really high level offense. Rare offense.

But he was 270 pounds trying to guard the perimeter. 13 LeBron was just dead if you put a screen in his way. His mobility was iffy with certain movements. Full court sprint? Sure. A drop step, a hop step, any pivot move to create space and finish? Ridiculously explosive.

Guarding a closeout? Reaction to a shifty ballhandler? And like I said, fighting through screens? Noooo.

Paul George who wasn't even all-star level yet, had a very good comfortable series getting defended by LeBron. Just taking him off the dribble getting good separation. He was in hell against NY and ATL in previous rounds.

Just a decent defender overall IMHO. I want to note his reactions and awareness on help defense was extremely sharp against SA in the finals Especially the last few games..

Lebron being a limited man/poa defender does not mean he was merely "decent". As we saw in 15-17, even when he's "coasting" on the perimeter, his combination of help, communication, and paint-deterrence(thats the big one) leaves him as an all-time non-big as far as defensive influence goes.

He's always been relatively weak against close-outs since he gained 20 pounds from his early cleveland days, it hasn't really inhibited his ability to anchor decent to elite rs or po defenses, right through the age of 32. Guarding up isn't what drives defensive value. Lebron being able to function as a primary paint-protector is far more important than how he handles screens and close-outs

No-more-rings · Post #13 » by **No-more-rings** » Thu May 25, 2023 10:30 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
Sansterre wrote:Playoff Offensive Rating: +4.58 (60th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.25 (26th)
Playoff SRS: +13.07 (25th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +4.11 (21st)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.45 (45th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.78 (55th)

They load-managed during the regular season...
homecourtloss wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:let's be frank, now we're all dying to know how far from 2013 MIA Sansterre has placed 2013 SAS

Homecourtloss wrote:Duncan, 69 games, 30 minutes per game
Parker, 66 games, 33 minutes per game
Manu, 60 games, 23 minutes per game (27 mpg in playoffs)
Kawhi, 58 games, 31 minutes per game
Green, 80 games, 28 minutes per game
Splitter, 81 games, 25 minutes per game
Diaw, 75 games, 23 minutes per game

With this many missed games and so few minutes played, to post a +6.7 SRS, top 7 offense, top 3 defense is pretty wild. This was always a +8 SRS, 65 win type team masquerading as a 58 win, +6.7 SRS team.

...but they were an all-time buzzsaw when it was time to win:
Round 1: Los Angeles Lakers (+1.5), won 4-0, by +18.7 points per game (+20.2 SRS eq)
Round 2: Golden State Warriors (+4.1), won 4-2, by +3.8 points per game (+7.9 SRS eq)
Round 3: Memphis Grizzlies (+8.3), won 4-0, by +11.0 points per game (+19.3 SRS eq)
Round 4: Miami Heat (+9.2), lost 3-4, by +0.7 points per game (+9.9 SRS eq)

(Note how 2013 Miami/Lebron tanks their SRS?)

I mean, yeah ok, they were great but I wouldn't get hung up so much on labels and get away from what I'm trying to say. Lebron has faced better teams and has performed better against those teams. We're in a comparison against his other runs, so how some of the other teams he faced matters a lot too.

Also I don't even know how the above were calculated. I understand somewhat of what SRS trys to measure but not familiar with the formula, so the Spurs having a +9.9 SRS against an opponent that they scored equally with seems questionable.

OhayoKD wrote:We can extend our sample with 2014:
Playoff Offensive Rating: +7.67 (22nd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -6.82 (31st)
Playoff SRS: +14.53 (9th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +4.32 (17th)
Shooting Advantage: +5.2%, Possession Advantage: -0.2 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +4.32 (5th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -0.17 (89th)

Round 1: Dallas Mavericks (+2.9), won 4-3, by +2.0 points per game (+4.9 SRS eq)
Round 2: Portland Trail Blazers (+4.6), won 4-1, by +13.4 points per game (+18.0 SRS eq)
Round 3: Oklahoma City Thunder (+7.5), won 4-2, by +10.5 pints per game (+18.0 SRS eq)
Round 4: Miami Heat (+6.4), won 4-1, by +14.0 points per game (+20.4 SRS eq)
(Lebron/Miami help them here )

This is the point though. Lebron performed much better against the arguably a better version of the Spurs the very next season. It was far from his best.

OhayoKD wrote:21 year old Kawhi and "the spurs wall" added up to a -7.25 playoff defense.

That's great, but not really historic.

OhayoKD wrote: Moreover wade had broken down with injuries(was getting his knees filled during the previous playoffs) turning what was supposed to be a superteam into a side that was averagish without Lebron:

The team would've won easier with Wade being healthy yes that's true. The thing is people use this to try to undermine Wade's importance not really realizing it helps show how important he was. It's the classic example of wanting to blame Wade for all the struggles they have and then give all credit to Lebron when they perform well. It's the classic Lebron stan tactic. That way they can never be wrong.

The series would've been over in 5 if Wade didn't play like the best on the floor in game 4. Lebron had one of the worst half series of his career prior to that along with struggles in games 5 and a lot of game 6.

That's not to say that Lebron was clearly the best player in the series, but just that it wasn't this super heroic series from him where he did it all alone against the big bad Spurs.

OhayoKD wrote:All considered, beating the Spurs at all is quite the accomplishment, and we probably are putting too much weight on scoring.

Um, no. Lebron often has a lot of his value come from scoring, we can't just choose to brush that aside because we have an agenda to fullfill.

You're the same one that would be quick to praise him for scoring 40, if someone tried to critque other parts of a particular game. We have to look at all facets of his performance, otherwise we aren't being objective.

OhayoKD wrote:That may not be the best by the standard of Lebron, but it absolutely holds up against anyone else(russell excepted)

Ok this is just ridiculous now. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt until you made it more and more clear you are too in favor of Lebron to be objective.

There's no way a series with that amount of inconsistency from game to game can be considered "up there with anyone but himself". We saw him have significant struggles offensively in 4.5/7 games basically, with game 3 being one of the absolute worst playoff games of his entire prime. If you don't believe it, then I'd really advise you go back and watch some of those games, because it's likely you probably never did anyway.

And if you think his offense didn't see struggles..the Heat had a +6.9 ORTG against the Spurs, compare that to a +12.1 just the series before against Indiana. While they had a +1 D performance against the Spurs, that's not really an historic team performance on either end of the floor by the Heat. You may be able to make it seem that way if you want to cherry pick how they did in 8 games against the Lakers(trash team) and Grizzlies then go ahead I guess.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #14 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Thu May 25, 2023 11:39 pm

I think part of the 2013 finals could be seen within the context of LeBron wearing down under the weight of a 76 game rs+ semi grueling ps run in which both Wade and Bosh were also hurt or wearing down. I think the burden of playing in that many consecutive finals is generally not factored into that era enough tbh. Which is why I think 2020 is also underrated(given the amount of rest he had finally gotten after 2019 and during 2020). Part of that is him carrying around a bit too much weight which I think contributed to it.

OhayoKD · Post #15 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri May 26, 2023 12:34 am

No-more-rings wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:

They load-managed during the regular season...

...but they were an all-time buzzsaw when it was time to win:

(Note how 2013 Miami/Lebron tanks their SRS?)

I mean, yeah ok, they were great but I wouldn't get hung up so much on labels and get away from what I'm trying to say. Lebron has faced better teams and has performed better against those teams. We're in a comparison against his other runs, so how some of the other teams he faced matters a lot too.

Also I don't even know how the above were calculated. I understand somewhat of what SRS trys to measure but not familiar with the formula, so the Spurs having a +9.9 SRS against an opponent that they scored equally with seems questionable.

Full-season srs + point-differential = SRS EQ, San weighs the playoffs at 65% and the rs at 35% when assigning a team's SRS. Injuries do inflate both the pistons and the spurs ratings a bit(no magic in the finals, pistons scale off bulls vs cleveland where cleveland's best players are all injured, 14 spurs run into ibaka-less okc and in 13 scale off westbrook-less okc), but the pistons are generally considered an all-time team, and the Spurs were on that level however you handle the approach(regular season SRS actually favors the Spurs).

This is the point though. Lebron performed much better against the arguably a better version of the Spurs the very next season. It was far from his best.

Then scale 14 up.

That's great, but not really historic.

[/quote]
That's the 26th highest mark covering 50+ years. "Historic" seems fair.

The team would've won easier with Wade being healthy yes that's true. The thing is people use this to try to undermine Wade's importance not really realizing it helps show how important he was. It's the classic example of wanting to blame Wade for all the struggles they have and then give all credit to Lebron when they perform well. It's the classic Lebron stan tactic. That way they can never be wrong.

Is your assertion that Lebron made Miami average when he was off the court(or entirely not in the game)? Why reply if you're going to derail with tangents about "lebron-stans"

The series would've been over in 5 if Wade didn't play like the best on the floor in game 4. Lebron had one of the worst half series of his career prior to that along with struggles in games 5 and a lot of game 6.

That's not to say that Lebron was clearly the best player in the series, but just that it wasn't this super heroic series from him where he did it all alone against the big bad Spurs.

You are referencing the game 4 where Lebron scored 33 on 60+ trueshooting while quarterbacking his team's offense and defense? Good for Wade, no idea what this has to do with me saying the team was averagish without him. Miami were a top-heavy roster whose top fell-off. I posted the lineups with wade and bosh and the games with wade and bosh. Those lineusp were average and it's not a matter of rotations since things got worse in full games.

Um, no. Lebron often has a lot of his value come from scoring, we can't just choose to brush that aside because we have an agenda to fullfill.

You just brushed aside everything that isn't scoring, just like you've brushed aside him consistently looking as or more valuable than anyone post-russell per non-box. Are you planning to downgrade 2000 Shaq and 91 Jordan for not running their own offenses? How about them being "not close"(your words, not mine) defensively.

Do not project your blindspots onto me. I said "we should put less weight" after you only talked about his scoring. Lebron has repeatedly demonstrated top-tier impact while his scoring has fallen off. It's not my fault the players you gravitate towards have not.

You're the same one that would be quick to praise him for scoring 40, if someone tried to critque other parts of a particular game. We have to look at all facets of his performance, otherwise we aren't being objective.

Am I the same one? I'd like to see receipts.

Ok this is just ridiculous now. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt until you made it more and more clear you are too in favor of Lebron to be objective.

"Objective" is when we conveniently forget that Lebron is a much better defender and is asked to do more offensively(there's more than taking shots and completing the final pass) so we can pretend players who have never shown comparable influence are on the level because you like their slashlines.

There's no way a series with that amount of inconsistency from game to game can be considered "up there with anyone but himself". We saw him have significant struggles offensively in 4.5/7 games basically, with game 3 being one of the absolute worst playoff games of his entire prime. If you don't believe it, then I'd really advise you go back and watch some of those games, because it's likely you probably never did anyway.

Uhuh.

And if you think his offense didn't see struggles..the Heat had a +6.9 ORTG against the Spurs, compare that to a +12.1 just the series before against Indiana. While they had a +1 D performance against the Spurs, that's not really an historic team performance on either end of the floor by the Heat. You may be able to make it seem that way if you want to cherry pick how they did in 8 games against the Lakers(trash team) and Grizzlies then go ahead I guess.

[/quote][/quote]
A +6.9 offense vs a -7 playoff defense is excellent. Anchoring a +1 d vs a playoff +4 offense is also excellent(historic for a non-big). As noted, similar context was present for Detroit and the 13/14(could extend to 12) Spurs posted a better regular season srs than both the Pistons(89/90) and the Trailblazers(00/01). Wonder why you don't knock those going 7. Are you sure you're "looking at all facets of his performance"? (That question is rhetorical, we both know you're not).

ronnymac2 · Post #16 » by **ronnymac2** » Fri May 26, 2023 4:41 am

ronnymac2 wrote:Game 1 in 2013 is also underrated. If Bosh hits that jumper,everybody is looking at LBJ's 18/18/11 statline as being the perfect illustration of how LeBron can affect the game at an elite level in so many ways, even against the Spurs. Instead, it's looked at as an 18/18/10 statline that makes you question why LBJ couldn't score more points.

I think James had a great first two games of that 2013 Finals, and a great last two games, too. Played well in Game 4 (Wade was the man in that game). GM 3 he struggled mightily. Don't remember game 5 much. It's one of the more underrated Finals in recent memory.

I recently learned that this forum has a working Search function and found this post from 2016. I think I still agree. Maybe Game 6 wasn't great though. Maybe a great end by LBJ.

His foul draw vs. Chicago was insane. Everything vs. Indy was all-time great. Shooting and foul draw vs. SAS went down, but he made up for it with TOV% and oREB%.

2013 is LBJ's peak year. It's the year you take when you want to contend with the Dreams, Diesels, and Airs in best peak comparisons. LBJ shot 40 percent from 3, finished like Shaq at the rim, could manage a game like '06 Billups, and provided all-time great defense at SF/PF. Super-charged motor. He's basically the perfect player. Remember, this was back when defense was still allowed to be played and teams didn't fill their rosters with interchangeable mediocrities whose sole job was to chuck 25-footers.

ardee · Post #17 » by **ardee** » Fri May 26, 2023 5:00 am

OhayoKD wrote:

This is the point though. Lebron performed much better against the arguably a better version of the Spurs the very next season. It was far from his best.

Then scale 14 up.

Couple things to note here:

1. LeBron's SCORING was better in 2014, sure. But I think his impact in other areas of the game was better in 2013, particularly defense (in fact on that end I don't think it's close).

Game 2 in 2013 is probably one of the best examples of all time of a GOAT player leaving a huge mark on a game without scoring a ton. He was extremely dominant defensively that game (3 steals, 3 blocks, and that's only what shows up on the box score) and created a ton of open 3s for his teammates, many of which were hockey assists.

2. It is honestly even arguable if there was much difference between the 2013 and 2014 Spurs. They were better in the first 3 rounds in 2013, and then faced a much more broken down Heat team in the Finals which obviously actually boosted their SRS. But they only lost 2 games before the Finals in 2013 and lost 6 in 2014. Duncan and Parker were better in 2013, Manu and Kawhi were better in 2014.

I think it's close to a wash, and obviously am fine with 2014 being the feted team but I do believe it's down to the fact that the Heat were just a lot more broken down that year.

OhayoKD · Post #18 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri May 26, 2023 5:21 am

ronnymac2 wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:Game 1 in 2013 is also underrated. If Bosh hits that jumper,everybody is looking at LBJ's 18/18/11 statline as being the perfect illustration of how LeBron can affect the game at an elite level in so many ways, even against the Spurs. Instead, it's looked at as an 18/18/10 statline that makes you question why LBJ couldn't score more points.

I think James had a great first two games of that 2013 Finals, and a great last two games, too. Played well in Game 4 (Wade was the man in that game). GM 3 he struggled mightily. Don't remember game 5 much. It's one of the more underrated Finals in recent memory.

I recently learned that this forum has a working Search function and found this post from 2016. I think I still agree. Maybe Game 6 wasn't great though. Maybe a great end by LBJ.

His foul draw vs. Chicago was insane. Everything vs. Indy was all-time great. Shooting and foul draw vs. SAS went down, but he made up for it with TOV% and oREB%.

2013 is LBJ's peak year. It's the year you take when you want to contend with the Dreams, Diesels, and Airs in best peak comparisons. LBJ shot 40 percent from 3, finished like Shaq at the rim, could manage a game like '06 Billups, and provided all-time great defense at SF/PF. Super-charged motor. He's basically the perfect player. Remember, this was back when defense was still allowed to be played and teams didn't fill their rosters with interchangeable mediocrities whose sole job was to chuck 25-footers.

Lebron retains his rather large defensive advantage over diesel or air in pretty much any of his best years as well as a number of offensive advantages ontop of just being outright more valuable statistically and all of that came against a more talented field. The "this is Lebron's peak" is typically just an excuse to scale-down the stuff people don't feel comfortable making an argument against.

Diesel especially is just riding on rep when people try and put him in these conversations. Air has the box-score and team-level domination and Dream has playoff-elevation. There is no real argument for 2000 as even the best year of the decade beyond vibes. People talk about Duncan and KG switching places, but it should really be KG vs Shaq. Duncan elevated when it mattered, Shaq at best mantained(with his defense probably dropping off).

ShotCreator · Post #19 » by **ShotCreator** » Fri May 26, 2023 4:25 pm

Spoiler:

LeBron isn't an elite paint protector though, lol. His deterrence is good on a passive level but that goes for anybody with the timing. Luka can deter the same shots. I've seen it.

There's too many angles and scenarios where LeBron's rim protection is more average than good. LeBron’s speed at recovering to the rim lends itself to rim protection but his body type doesn’t. He’s not a quick jumper, even tough he’s an insanely explosive one, and he’s not overly long.

And his instincts and timing for blocking a shot isn't there to do it without momentum on the move, and finishers innately sense this.

Though he did get into an insane rhythm as a shot blocker against GS in the 16 finals, and the instincts on this flipped. He had the confidence, they had the fear, and his impact grew massively. But that's mostly a one-off IMO.

Outside maybe 16, LeBron's defense was at it's peak when he was closing out well and locking guys down 1v1.

2009. His defensive speed is really his best asset. If that becomes shaky at times like in 13, then he really is just gonna be decent.

Djoker · Post #20 » by **Djoker** » Fri May 26, 2023 9:48 pm

It's a somewhat disappointing run offensively. If Allen didn't hit that 3pt shot Lebron would have had another horrible subpar finals in his peak years. The way it turned out, he had a great Game 7 and the rest is history but all in all it's not a GOAT-level run at all. He was going through the motions and struggling shooting the ball through much of that finals series and worse yet looked passive at times.