How many teams would have beaten the 2017 Cavs?

[rand]

Assuming 2017 rules/refs, how many teams ever* would have beaten the 2017 Cavs in a 7 game series?

*Not counting the KD Warriors teams of course

[TheGOATRises007]

Not sure any clearly would.

The 92 Bulls(imo the best Bulls team), 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics just don't have enough threes in them. If those teams are transported into the modern era and have some time to acclimate themselves, then that's a different story. But straight away transportation, I'm not sure how they'd survive without taking threes.

Insane 3pt disparity is hard to ignore.

I honestly think they're the best team to not win a title.

I'd favor them over the 2018 Rockets, because of LeBron > Harden.

[70sFan]

Too many to count would have strong chances.

[TheLand13]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.

Not sure any clearly would.

The 92 Bulls(imo the best Bulls team), 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics just don't have enough threes in them. If those teams are transported into the modern era and have some time to acclimate themselves, then that's a different story. But straight away transportation, I'm not sure how they'd survive without taking threes.

Insane 3pt disparity is hard to ignore.

I honestly think they're the best team to not win a title.

I'd favor them over the 2018 Rockets, because of LeBron > Harden.

I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

[1993Playoffs]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.

Not sure any clearly would.

The 92 Bulls(imo the best Bulls team), 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics just don't have enough threes in them. If those teams are transported into the modern era and have some time to acclimate themselves, then that's a different story. But straight away transportation, I'm not sure how they'd survive without taking threes.

Insane 3pt disparity is hard to ignore.

I honestly think they're the best team to not win a title.

I'd favor them over the 2018 Rockets, because of LeBron > Harden.

I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

Absolutely no way I believe in Harden is leading a team over prime LeBron, in the playoffs

[TheLand13]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.

Not sure any clearly would.

The 92 Bulls(imo the best Bulls team), 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics just don't have enough threes in them. If those teams are transported into the modern era and have some time to acclimate themselves, then that's a different story. But straight away transportation, I'm not sure how they'd survive without taking threes.

Insane 3pt disparity is hard to ignore.

I honestly think they're the best team to not win a title.

I'd favor them over the 2018 Rockets, because of LeBron > Harden.

I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

Absolutely no way I believe in Harden is leading a team over prime LeBron, in the playoffs

Basketball is a team sport. This logic isn't going to cut it. I guess you probably think the 2018 Cavaliers would have also beaten that 2018 Rockets team, right?

[1993Playoffs]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.



I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

Absolutely no way I believe in Harden is leading a team over prime LeBron, in the playoffs

Basketball is a team sport. This logic isn't going to cut it. I guess you probably think the 2018 Cavaliers would have also beaten that 2018 Rockets team, right?

I know basketball is a team sport and no the Cavaliers 2018 wouldn’t beat the 2018 rockets but the 2017 Cavs and 2018 rockets are close enough. Not sure why you’re just assuming Harden will play well enough to beat LeBron if the teams are close enough. He hasn’t given me any type of that confidence in the playoffs.

I think it’s much more likely to harden disappoints in a big game and they lose the series

[TheLand13]

I know basketball is a team sport and no the Cavaliers 2018 wouldn’t beat the 2018 rockets but the 2017 Cavs and 2018 rockets are close enough. Not sure why you’re just assuming Harden will play well enough to beat LeBron if the teams are close enough. He hasn’t given me any type of that confidence in the playoffs.

Because the teams aren't close enough, and I don't know what you're going off of that makes you think this.

One was far better coached, had much better chemistry, and more two way talent that allowed the team to thrive at both ends. The other one didn't. The 2017 Cavaliers were a very top heavy team with one really great bench player, that's it. They didn't have any real system in place and they were never a cohesive unit. The chemistry of the 2018 Rockets on the other hand were off the charts and they were stacked with a lot of veteran players who understood their role and what they were supposed to do.

What makes up that much of a difference between the 2017 and 2018 Cavaliers that this suddenly makes them close enough? It isn't Kyrie Irving because all he's really going to provide you with is extra scoring. It sure as hell isn't Richard Jefferson. I know you aren't about to tell me it's Deron Williams. So what is so different about the two teams that I should suddenly take this claim that they're close enough seriously?

The 2017 Cavaliers were not that good of a team. They got hot at the right time, and went up against very weak teams in the playoffs. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that they're worse than the 2018 Cavaliers, they definitely aren't. But what I will say is that people who act like the 2017 Cavs were some powerhouse team clearly didn't watch them play at all and are going entirely off the numbers and box score data provided to us. Actually watch them play a game and you'll see very quickly that in reality, they were a disorganized, disjointed mess of a team with little to no depth and relying heavily on LeBron to run things for them. If JR Smith or Kyle Korver weren't hot from three, they were screwed. If the team they were facing was elite offensively, they had no real chance of winning unless they put on an unreal performance at that end.

I think it’s much more likely to harden disappoints in a big game and they lose the series

You think Harden disappoints and that results in them losing? Buddy, Harden disappointed multiple times in games that they ended up winning anyways because, guess what? The 2018 Rockets were built in a way that allowed them to still dominate even if Harden wasn't. Hell, in Harden's worst game of the 2018 playoff series against the Warriors (a 19 point dud where he shot 0-11 from three and 5-21 from the field), Houston still went on to win the game anyways. Hell, I'll take that one step further and point out that in Harden's best game in that series, where he torched Golden State for 41 points on excellent shooting, they still lost.

Let me take this one step further though: how exactly is Harden going to disappoint anyways? We need to keep in mind that the way he is defended has an impact on how he plays. Who on the 2017 Cavaliers is going to guard James Harden? JR Smith? Kyire Irving? And that's not even factoring in the rest of the Rockets decimating the Cavaliers as a whole because, guess what? They were a terrible defensive team. I don't deny that there have been times where James Harden has just outright choked and it wasn't even because of the other team, but let's not sit here and pretend that he's not going to eat up a horrible defensive team that will more than likely leave him open almost all the time.

You can't just take one thing and assume it automatically applies to the other. You have to factor in matchups and how it all falls into place. One team is already far more talented to the other, now you expect me to believe that said team would win because their best player would have a few disappointing games even though they've won plenty of games with him playing like crap? Please.

[therealbig3]

They were certainly a fantastic team, and it speaks to just how good LeBron was as an offensive anchor that he basically led as good of an offense in the playoffs as the 17 Warriors had, despite adding KD to their 73 win core.

But there are a lot of "what if" teams and actual champions from the past that could have beaten them. Playoffs are all about matchups and what you can exploit, and Kyrie/Love were certainly exploitable. They didn't have any particularly good perimeter defenders outside of LeBron. No great interior defense outside of LeBron either.

[TheGOATRises007]

Meh, I think the 2017 Cavs coasted A LOT in the RS. In reality, they were like a 60+ win team with 8-9 SRS.

As for the comparisons vs the Rockets: I'm not sure the Rockets constant switching defense would work against the greatest playoff offense of all-time. LeBron could constantly hunt Harden on switches. Even Kyrie could. The Cavs' defense is weak, but I don't think the Rockets torch them like the Warriors did.

Also the 2017 Cavs actually got outscored less by a superior Warriors team than the Rockets against a weaker Warriors team.

[OhayoKD]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.

Not sure any clearly would.

The 92 Bulls(imo the best Bulls team), 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics just don't have enough threes in them. If those teams are transported into the modern era and have some time to acclimate themselves, then that's a different story. But straight away transportation, I'm not sure how they'd survive without taking threes.

Insane 3pt disparity is hard to ignore.

I honestly think they're the best team to not win a title.

I'd favor them over the 2018 Rockets, because of LeBron > Harden.

I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

Me thinks you put way too much stock into regular season d-rating.

[TheLand13]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.

Not sure any clearly would.

The 92 Bulls(imo the best Bulls team), 01 Lakers, 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics just don't have enough threes in them. If those teams are transported into the modern era and have some time to acclimate themselves, then that's a different story. But straight away transportation, I'm not sure how they'd survive without taking threes.

Insane 3pt disparity is hard to ignore.

I honestly think they're the best team to not win a title.

I'd favor them over the 2018 Rockets, because of LeBron > Harden.

I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

Me thinks you put way too much stock into regular season d-rating.

Okay, so you tell me how the 2017 Cavaliers with the defensive personal they had and the system they had in place is slowing down the 2018 Rockets. I can't wait to hear this one.

[RCM88x]

I don't think any team post 2011 would be favored to beat them, other than the 2017 Warriors and perhaps the 2020 Lakers. Personally I think generally people underrate how bad of a matchup those Cavs were against the 2017 Warriors, which is almost a problem unique to that specific Warriors team. The 2018 Warriors were a step or two below their previous selves, not as healthy nor the great continuity.

EDIT: I'll add the 2014 Spurs in too

[OhayoKD]

Meh, I think the 2017 Cavs coasted A LOT in the RS. In reality, they were like a 60+ win team with 8-9 SRS.

As for the comparisons vs the Rockets: I'm not sure the Rockets constant switching defense would work against the greatest playoff offense of all-time. LeBron could constantly hunt Harden on switches. Even Kyrie could. The Cavs' defense is weak, but I don't think the Rockets torch them like the Warriors did.

Also the 2017 Cavs actually got outscored less by a superior Warriors team than the Rockets against a weaker Warriors team.

was that true before cp3's injury?

[RCM88x]

Pretty much any team with a great defense and competent offense would beat this Cavaliers team.



I'm not sure why you continue to overrate the 2017 Cavs but they most definitely are not beating the 2018 Rockets. That Rockets offense would horribly overwhelm their terrible defense and the Rockets were actually a well put together defensive unit who would provide a lot of resistance at the perimeter where Cleveland thrived. While LeBron>Harden obviously, the rest of the Rockets team is very clearly better than what the Cavaliers had going for them.

Me thinks you put way too much stock into regular season d-rating.

Okay, so you tell me how the 2017 Cavaliers with the defensive personal they had and the system they had in place is slowing down the 2018 Rockets. I can't wait to hear this one.

You really don't even need one, the 2018 Rockets were not any sort of outstanding playoff offense, nor were they in any other year with Harden. Obviously a very strong RS team, but historically I think people overrate them massively simply because they got to G7 against a Warriors team that wasn't nearly as good as the year before (or after).

[OhayoKD]

Me thinks you put way too much stock into regular season d-rating.

Okay, so you tell me how the 2017 Cavaliers with the defensive personal they had and the system they had in place is slowing down the 2018 Rockets. I can't wait to hear this one.

You really don't even need one, the 2018 Rockets were not any sort of outstanding playoff offense, nor were they in any other year with Harden. Obviously a very strong RS team, but historically I think people overrate them massively simply because they got to G7 against a Warriors team that wasn't nearly as good as the year before (or after).

Don't think they have an answer for Lebron or kyrie either. Still feel I need to give Rockets the edge out of respect for having the kd-warriors on the ropes b2b years

[eminence]

Teams I’d say have real shots given the ‘17 rules and exclusion of the KD Warriors.

‘14 Spurs, ‘15/‘16 Warriors, ‘16 Thunder, ‘18 Rockets, ‘19 Raptors, ‘19 Sixers, ‘20 Lakers, ‘21 Bucks, ‘22 Warriors, ‘23 Nuggets

I expect teams pre-modern would just get strategically outclassed and find themselves unable to adjust. Otherwise I have pretty much every title contender in-era having a shot. Cavs were great, but not otherworldly. Warriors flattened em.

[OhayoKD]

Teams I’d say have real shots given the ‘17 rules and exclusion of the KD Warriors.

‘14 Spurs, ‘15/‘16 Warriors, ‘16 Thunder, ‘18 Rockets, ‘19 Raptors, ‘19 Sixers, ‘20 Lakers, ‘21 Bucks, ‘22 Warriors, ‘23 Nuggets

I expect teams pre-modern would just get strategically outclassed and find themselves unable to adjust. Otherwise I have pretty much every title contender in-era having a shot. Cavs were great, but not otherworldly. Warriors flattened em.

The 21 bucks and 23 nuggets seem like a stretch to me. The sweep obscures that the nuggets were in 3 games that could have gone either way against a team whose best two players both need foot surgery(one carrying a torn tendon). And the Bucks are probably better suited for the 15 cavs given how much work they made of the hawks and the nets. Rest is fine, though you probably need at least a little bit of retooling for the 14 spurs.

I know the conference competition was weak, but I'd give Cavs some benefit of the doubt based on 16 and 15 and even their toronto sweep in 18. If nothing else, I don't trust coach bud vs Lebron

[OhayoKD]

Absolutely no way I believe in Harden is leading a team over prime LeBron, in the playoffs

Basketball is a team sport. This logic isn't going to cut it. I guess you probably think the 2018 Cavaliers would have also beaten that 2018 Rockets team, right?

I know basketball is a team sport and no the Cavaliers 2018 wouldn’t beat the 2018 rockets but the 2017 Cavs and 2018 rockets are close enough. Not sure why you’re just assuming Harden will play well enough to beat LeBron if the teams are close enough. He hasn’t given me any type of that confidence in the playoffs.

I think it’s much more likely to harden disappoints in a big game and they lose the series

Harden's reputation as some playoff seller is massively overblown.

[homecourtloss]

Teams I’d say have real shots given the ‘17 rules and exclusion of the KD Warriors.

‘14 Spurs, ‘15/‘16 Warriors, ‘16 Thunder, ‘18 Rockets, ‘19 Raptors, ‘19 Sixers, ‘20 Lakers, ‘21 Bucks, ‘22 Warriors, ‘23 Nuggets

I expect teams pre-modern would just get strategically outclassed and find themselves unable to adjust. Otherwise I have pretty much every title contender in-era having a shot. Cavs were great, but not otherworldly. Warriors flattened em.

I think they were probably one piece away, i.e., another 3 and D wing better offensively than Shumpert, from really beating any team and that’s with TT being limited offensively yet overall effective and Love being a defensive liability in some matchups (namely vs. the Warriors who also ran him off the three point line better than anyone). Philosophically we can say that if they were that uncompetitive vs. the Warriors (though with James on court they were competitive) than many teams have a shot vs. them, but on the hand, I really didn’t see anything other than the Warriors specifically giving them that trouble.

Even after losing handily to the Warriors, the Cavs’ main players had absurd net ratings as they were able to consistently romp even against playoff adjustments and really do so for two straight years. It seems to me that the only thing stopping the Cavs with James was the unique offensive+defensive strengths of the Warriors. You really don’t see this type of two year playoff runs from many teams.

2017 Cavs’ On court ratings with players ON

LeBron, +13.0, +18.6 in just East games (-.5 per 100 vs Warriors, was a + on court in two games)
Love, +12.2, +21.2
JR, +10.8, +18.5
TT, +9.5, +16.9
Kyrie, +9.4, +17.1

2016 Cavs’ On court ratings with players ON

LeBron, +13.4, +18.4 in just East games games)
Love, +13.3, +16.8
JR, +11.8, +14.8
TT, +11.2, +12.3
Kyrie, +10.0, +12.1