2020 Lakers vs 2023 Nuggets

[Matt15]

Who wins in 7?

[AdagioPace]

No idea where KCP plays in this scenario.

Pro Nuggets considerations:
-Lakers never faced such a complete and healthy Nugget team.
- is AD's performance sustainable? (bubble, environmental factors blah blah etc...etc)

Pro Lakers considerations:
- abundant big rotation with Dwight and Javal
- younger Lebron of course

What about Laker's roster? They were missing a 3rd cog like Reaves in 2020 but they looked a bit deeper.

I say Nuggets in 7

[MyUniBroDavis]

Lol Lakers in 5 or 6 come on

This is a horrible conversation yall really hyping up a 5 game series where bron got out of second gear once this is crazy

[TheGOATRises007]

Lol Lakers in 5 or 6 come on

The same Laker team beat an inferior Nuggets team in 5, so why would a much better team only manage to take 1 game off them too?

If the counter is that a much worse Laker team was in every game until the 4th. The Nuggets fared similar in the bubble and were an AD buzzer beater away from being tied 1-1. And they outscored the 2023 Lakers by more points than the 2020 Lakers did vs the 2020 Nuggets.

Not even saying the Nuggets definitely win, but it's not a given the Lakers definitely win either.

[rk2023]

Let’s assume KCP is cloned into two “twins” of his archetype corresponding to the 2020 Lakers and 2023 Nuggets here. I’m unsure who the Lakers third option is going to be (compared to 23 Rui / Reaves), but I see us having better perimeter defenders across the board which would lend better against Brown, Porter, Murray, etc. Of-course Jokic is better in this matchup compared to his 2020 self, but I still like the double-big lineup in defending while he is on the floor and (most importantly) trust a much more potent on O duo in James/Davis to be the driving factor that takes this series home in 6 games.

[Eagle4]

The 2020 lakers are vaaaastly superior than the 2023 version. They probably take it in 6-7 considering all the games were close this year.

[Woodsanity]

Lakers didn't have to face Denver in Denver at all in 2020 since it was in the bubble which is a big deal.
Overall Nuggets roster is far better in 2023 and Jokic, Murray and MPJ is better than 2020.

Nuggets in 7 though I wonder who gets HCA in this hypothetical that could make a difference.

[jalengreen]

Lakers didn't have to face Denver in Denver at all in 2020 since it was in the bubble which is a big deal.
Overall Nuggets roster is far better in 2023 and Jokic, Murray and MPJ is better than 2020.

Nuggets in 7 though I wonder who gets HCA in this hypothetical that could make a difference.

2020 Lakers were 52-19, 2023 Nuggets were 53-29

Would make sense to give the Lakers HCA

[Woodsanity]

Lakers didn't have to face Denver in Denver at all in 2020 since it was in the bubble which is a big deal.
Overall Nuggets roster is far better in 2023 and Jokic, Murray and MPJ is better than 2020.

Nuggets in 7 though I wonder who gets HCA in this hypothetical that could make a difference.

2020 Lakers were 52-19, 2023 Nuggets were 53-29

Would make sense to give the Lakers HCA

True I can see the Lakers winning in 7 in that case.

[homecourtloss]

It would be a great series. Honestly, if they played this series again, I can easily see it go 6-7 games if James shoots anything close to his normal %s and Murray doesn’t go nuclear or just either one of those two.

Also, a different first quarter in game 1 sets a different tone for the rest of the series, as I don’t see Jokic getting 6 ORebs with Howard in there.

I see the Lakers in 6.

[SK21209]

For all the **** talk from Malone, the LeBron or Rui on Jokic, AD on Gordon defensive arrangement worked well. The Lakers got swept because Murray torched us and LeBron and AD couldn’t carry the offense with DLo being useless. The 2020 team could guard Jokic the same, had much better perimeter defenders for Murray and had much more offensively dominant versions of LeBron and AD.

[LesGrossman]

This is just another example of how lobsided this entire board is. The Nuggets were dominating all year, they have the guy who should have the MVP 3peat in his pocket, they just literally SWEPT the lakers and still theres discussions like this one going on. Fortunately, reality is slowly sinking in outside realGM. Jokic is real, the Nuggets might well be the new dynasty - everyone is young and they are only going to get better.

2020 tbh i felt like the refs were a critical part in the Lakers' success. The games and the entire series were a lot closer than the result suggests, in fact this was the real finals. AD was a beast back then (and still is), and Joker played a lot less active on D back in 2020 though. He was rightfully criticised for it, and he worked hard on improving on that end of the floor too. I saw him block AD multiple times this year and also steal the ball, help on screens and generally show up in the lane. This version of Jokic would probably make a huge difference in 2020.

[SK21209]

This is just another example of how lobsided this entire board is. The Nuggets were dominating all year, they have the guy who should have the MVP 3peat in his pocket, they just literally SWEPT the lakers and still theres discussions like this one going on. Fortunately, reality is slowly sinking in outside realGM. Jokic is real, the Nuggets might well be the new dynasty - everyone is young and they are only going to get better.

2020 tbh i felt like the refs were a critical part in the Lakers' success. The games and the entire series were a lot closer than the result suggests, in fact this was the real finals. AD was a beast back then (and still is), and Joker played a lot less active on D back in 2020 though. He was rightfully criticised for it, and he worked hard on improving on that end of the floor too. I saw him block AD multiple times this year and also steal the ball, help on screens and generally show up in the lane. This version of Jokic would probably make a huge difference in 2020.

The Nuggets were not “dominating all year”. They were 53-29, 6th in net rating, 6th in SRS and it wasn’t just because they took their foot off the gas the last month. They’re obviously playing at a really high level right now, but they never profiled as a historically good team until now.

[LesGrossman]

This is just another example of how lobsided this entire board is. The Nuggets were dominating all year, they have the guy who should have the MVP 3peat in his pocket, they just literally SWEPT the lakers and still theres discussions like this one going on. Fortunately, reality is slowly sinking in outside realGM. Jokic is real, the Nuggets might well be the new dynasty - everyone is young and they are only going to get better.

2020 tbh i felt like the refs were a critical part in the Lakers' success. The games and the entire series were a lot closer than the result suggests, in fact this was the real finals. AD was a beast back then (and still is), and Joker played a lot less active on D back in 2020 though. He was rightfully criticised for it, and he worked hard on improving on that end of the floor too. I saw him block AD multiple times this year and also steal the ball, help on screens and generally show up in the lane. This version of Jokic would probably make a huge difference in 2020.

The Nuggets were not “dominating all year”. They were 53-29, 6th in net rating, 6th in SRS and it wasn’t just because they took their foot off the gas the last month. They’re obviously playing at a really high level right now, but they never profiled as a historically good team until now.

It always depends on which numbers you look at, but that isnt how statistics really work (outside realgm anyway). How long percentage wise were they on top of the west this year?

I thought they are a very stable team, especially at home. They have Jokic, and a healthy Murray. There is no reason at all to question their legit #1 seeding imho.

[TheLand13]

The Lakers trio of bigs consisting of Davis/McGee/Howard would be a serious problem matchup wise for the Nuggets. Jokic is almost always guaranteed to be dealing with a big body of some sort that is going to make him really work for his offense. While I do think he does much better in this case than he did in 2020 when they were gentlemen swept, that brings us to the rest of the team that also creates problems. I feel that one of the reasons why the Lakers ultimately got swept in this series was that they didn't have anyone that could really give Murray fits out at the perimeter. It kind of felt like the guy could just go out there and do whatever he wanted. The 2020 Lakers are loaded with perimeter defenders who are at the very least capable of making Murray have to work a lot harder for his offense, just like Jokic. Having something like that does make a difference. It forces the player to be more selective. Sometimes it forces them into a lot more bad shots. This can all lead up to someone losing their rhythm, which in return means you are being forced to find your offense again.

And quite frankly, I just don't like the Nuggets chances of slowing down the Lakers offense. The 2020 Lakers were just so well built across the board, and of course we have to factor in LeBron, who in this case is not only healthy, but also younger and in one of his last MVP caliber seasons.

Another thing we have to keep in mind here is who is getting homecourt advantage in this scenario? If it's the Lakers, I can very easily see this being a gentlemen's sweep again. But with the Nuggets having it, I would have to go with Lakers in six instead.

[Doctor MJ]

This is just another example of how lobsided this entire board is. The Nuggets were dominating all year, they have the guy who should have the MVP 3peat in his pocket, they just literally SWEPT the lakers and still theres discussions like this one going on. Fortunately, reality is slowly sinking in outside realGM. Jokic is real, the Nuggets might well be the new dynasty - everyone is young and they are only going to get better.

2020 tbh i felt like the refs were a critical part in the Lakers' success. The games and the entire series were a lot closer than the result suggests, in fact this was the real finals. AD was a beast back then (and still is), and Joker played a lot less active on D back in 2020 though. He was rightfully criticised for it, and he worked hard on improving on that end of the floor too. I saw him block AD multiple times this year and also steal the ball, help on screens and generally show up in the lane. This version of Jokic would probably make a huge difference in 2020.

The Nuggets were not “dominating all year”. They were 53-29, 6th in net rating, 6th in SRS and it wasn’t just because they took their foot off the gas the last month. They’re obviously playing at a really high level right now, but they never profiled as a historically good team until now.

A good point to push back on, but it should also be mentioned that Jokic's +/- dwarfed everybody else all year. Jokic came it at +640 whereas the next highest number was +521 (Aaron Gordon) and the highest from another team (Derrick White) was +488. I would say that that's actually what relative dominance looks like.

Now of course in '19-20 there weren't 82 games, so if we just look at +/- per 100 possessions, and we compare Jokic to the top Laker in '19-20:

LeBron James '19-20, +9.0 per 100
Nikola Jokic '22-23, +12.0 per 100

And of course one could argue that those Lakers would win over these Nuggets due to superior depth, but I doubt that's how people are thinking about it.

I do still think there's an argument to be made that Playoff Lakers 2020 > Playoff Nuggets 2023, but realistically it has to be an argument about the Lakers being incredible in the playoffs, not about them being inherently stronger in the regular season.

And yeah, when people are thinking those Lakers would take these Nuggets in 5 or 6 games when the much weaker '19-20 Nuggets already did that to me speaks a lot to how people are looking to frame things still. It's still not about how amazing the Nuggets are, it's about the fact that LeBron is old. I hope that changes in the future.

[Doctor MJ]

The Lakers trio of bigs consisting of Davis/McGee/Howard would be a serious problem matchup wise for the Nuggets. Jokic is almost always guaranteed to be dealing with a big body of some sort that is going to make him really work for his offense. While I do think he does much better in this case than he did in 2020 when they were gentlemen swept, that brings us to the rest of the team that also creates problems. I feel that one of the reasons why the Lakers ultimately got swept in this series was that they didn't have anyone that could really give Murray fits out at the perimeter. It kind of felt like the guy could just go out there and do whatever he wanted. The 2020 Lakers are loaded with perimeter defenders who are at the very least capable of making Murray have to work a lot harder for his offense, just like Jokic. Having something like that does make a difference. It forces the player to be more selective. Sometimes it forces them into a lot more bad shots. This can all lead up to someone losing their rhythm, which in return means you are being forced to find your offense again.

And quite frankly, I just don't like the Nuggets chances of slowing down the Lakers offense. The 2020 Lakers were just so well built across the board, and of course we have to factor in LeBron, who in this case is not only healthy, but also younger and in one of his last MVP caliber seasons.

Another thing we have to keep in mind here is who is getting homecourt advantage in this scenario? If it's the Lakers, I can very easily see this being a gentlemen's sweep again. But with the Nuggets having it, I would have to go with Lakers in six instead.

I think we're overusing the term "gentleman's sweep" if we used it mean any series that goes 4-1.

First I should say that until recently to me it always either spoke a series where
a) a team loses Game 1 and then wins the next 4 handily
or
b) a team goes up 3-0, loses one game, and then closes the series out without much of a fuss.

In either case, the expectation is that the victorious team outscores the other considerably. Let's consider how the Lakers outscored their '19-20 playoff opponents:

Portland 4-1, outscore by 10.6.
Houston 4-1, outscore by 7.2.
Denver 4-1, outscore by 4.4.
Miami 4-2, outscore by 5.5.

Give Miami credit for being the only team to take two off the Lakers, but no one played the Lakers tighter than the Nuggets then, so "gentleman's sweep" really seems misleading to me.

And yeah, I do think this Nugget team is considerably better than the '19-20 version of the team, so if you're imagining a similar performance to before, I think that's too much anchoring on what happened in the past.

[picko]

In that scenario, I can imagine LeBron (2020), Davis (2020) and Jokic (2023) all playing at roughly the level that they did in those series. All were ~30 PER guys in those series. I have a much harder time believing that Murray would replicate his 2023 heroics.

Consequently, I'd have to lean towards the Lakers. They had a fully fit LeBron - one still capable of playing big minutes at high intensity - and enough size to at least make Jokic's life relatively difficult. Guys like Caruso and KCP are better equipped to handle Murray than anyone on the 2023 Lakers.

[MyUniBroDavis]

When the Nuggets destroy the heat who don’t have a center in ready to hear Nuggets over 2017 warriors takes btw

[tone wone]

When the Nuggets destroy the heat who don’t have a center in ready to hear Nuggets over 2017 warriors takes btw

Jokic vs Curry
Highpost passing vs back screens
Big man playmaking vs movement shooting

That comparison will rip this board apart.