Fumbling double dribbles

cam24thomas · Post #1 » by **cam24thomas** » Mon May 29, 2023 3:14 am

Why does the NBA not penalize players for fumbling the ball into a "double dribble"?
If you "double dribble" it should be a turnover whether you intended to or not....

Jimmy Butler double dribbled but it wasn't called that because they say he fumbled.
Seems wrong, because fumbling is a skill error, not just bad luck :nonono:

If you dribble the ball onto your foot and lose it, that's a turnover, so fumbling into a "double dribble" should be a turnover too.

azcatz11 · Post #2 » by **azcatz11** » Mon May 29, 2023 3:19 am

cam24thomas wrote:Why does the NBA not penalize players for fumbling the ball into a "double dribble"?
If you "double dribble" it should be a turnover whether you intended to or not....

Jimmy Butler double dribbled but it wasn't called that because they say he fumbled.
Seems wrong, because fumbling is a skill error, not just bad luck

If you dribble the ball onto your foot and lose it, that's a turnover, so fumbling into a "double dribble" should be a turnover too.

I completely agree and was wondering the same thing when I saw that

Post #3 » by **og15** » Mon May 29, 2023 3:32 am

https://www.fiba.basketball/documents

I'm assuming the rule is the same as here:

Section 24.1.4

The following are not dribbles:

• Successive shots for a goal.
• Fumbling the ball at the start or at the end of a dribble.
• Attempts to gain control of the ball by tapping it from the vicinity of other players.
• Tapping the ball from the control of another player.
• Deflecting a pass and gaining control of the ball.
• Tossing the ball from hand to hand and allowing it to come to rest in one or both
hands before touching the court, provided that no travelling violation is
committed.
• Throwing the ball against the backboard and regaining the control of the ball.

If fumbling the ball doesn't count as a dribble, then as long as you do not dribble again after retrieving the ball, there is no double dribble. Butler shot right away, didn't dribble again. I'm assuming NBA has the same interpretation as FIBA on this one.

EDIT:
Here's from the NBA rulebook:

Section II—Dribble

A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the
ball to the floor.
a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
(1)Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands
(2) Permits the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it
(3)Tries for a field goal
(4)Throws a pass
(5)Touches the ball more than once while dribbling, before it touches the floor
(6)Loses control
(7) Allows the ball to become dead
(8) Otherwise gathers the ball. (See Rule 4—Section III-(b))

So from that section, the relevant parts would be "caused by a player in control" and "while he is in control of it". The bounce that happened after fumbling the ball was not a controlled action, it was accidental and therefore doesn't count as a dribble, hence you can't call a double dribble since no second dribble happened after fumbling the ball.

cam24thomas · Post #4 » by **cam24thomas** » Mon May 29, 2023 3:45 am

So according to the rule book somebody could pretend to fumble the ball just to cover more ground.... and get away with it.
And according to science, dribbling is an accidental action anyway (its what babies do, because they can't control their mouths), so in basketball its possible to dribble by accident.

Post #5 » by **og15** » Mon May 29, 2023 3:51 am

cam24thomas wrote:So according to the rule book somebody could pretend to fumble the ball just to cover more ground.... and get away with it.

Sure, if they can pull it off well and not commit a turnover and actually put themselves in a better position. There are things players could pretend to do, but whether it is actually beneficial is a different discussion. Butler got lucky that Horford fouled him, the fumble didn't put him in a better situation, so now imagine a player trying to deliberately do that?

Remember you can't have a controlled pick up then fumble, that's not a fumble, so I'm going up for a shot, right as I am about to pick up the ball, I deliberately lose the ball, then run after it to pick it up again (if I even get to it first). That's a beneficial situation how exactly?

Fencer reregistered · Post #6 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Mon May 29, 2023 4:05 am

Football had to institute rules to prevent guys from "fumbling" the ball forward.

Football also struggles with referee calls as to when a receiver is or isn't in control of the ball.

Jimmy moved his feet quite a bit after losing control of the ball, so maybe he traveled after getting the ball back. But if so, I'm not going to blame the refs for not seeing that; I'm still not sure even after seeing video.

cam24thomas · Post #7 » by **cam24thomas** » Mon May 29, 2023 4:09 am

Would be so much cleaner if we could penalize players for fumbling, including when they fumble into travels and double dribbles.
Its all about skills, not finding excuses for players to keep the ball....

Tor_Raps · Post #8 » by **Tor_Raps** » Mon May 29, 2023 4:15 am

Ya I thought Butler 100% double dribbled there.

If there is any rule out there that makes it legal, change it immediately please. A player should be punished for fumbling, not rewarded.

xdrta+ · Post #9 » by **xdrta+** » Mon May 29, 2023 4:30 am

Nobody is going to lose control of the ball on purpose, or even pretend to, in order to get an extra step or a better shot. That makes no sense. If you're going to pretend something, just flop, that's a proven winner.

Pachinko_ · Post #10 » by **Pachinko_** » Mon May 29, 2023 5:02 am

I don't like it either but at least it is an actual rule
And most importantly it is consinstently applied with is pretty fkn rare in the NBA

Post #11 » by **Darth Celtic** » Mon May 29, 2023 5:08 am

Idunno, but that's what they said, call was correct. Seems odd as I would call that on myself but I don't play in nba

edededtut · Post #12 » by **edededtut** » Mon May 29, 2023 5:59 am

Butler got lucky that Horford fouled him, the fumble didn't put him in a better situation,

it obviously did though. horford was right there in front of butler and ready to challenge the shot that was coming. when butler fumbled horford got left a step behind and was in a worse position to defend.

JN61 · Post #13 » by **JN61** » Mon May 29, 2023 12:43 pm

This is NBA rules. Different from basketball rules.

This might be news to you but NBA has done everything they can to make offensive player's game easier for decades now.

Lockdown504090 · Post #14 » by **Lockdown504090** » Mon May 29, 2023 1:13 pm

JN61 wrote:This is NBA rules. Different from basketball rules.

This might be news to you but NBA has done everything they can to make offensive player's game easier for decades now.

This is also the rule in federation(high school) and fiba. Has been for at least 30 years

Post #15 » by **og15** » Mon May 29, 2023 1:53 pm

el_Diablo wrote:
Butler got lucky that Horford fouled him, the fumble didn't put him in a better situation,

it obviously did though. horford was right there in front of butler and ready to challenge the shot that was coming. when butler fumbled horford got left a step behind and was in a worse position to defend.

Butler got lucky really, but luck happens in basketball, we don't need to regulate against luck. Horford reached in and raked both his arms which actually helped him because that was going to be a tough shot.

If Butler shoots the initial shot or that second one, I'm not even convinced the first would have been harder. In the initial, if you look at Butler's footwork, he was trying to gather and step back (/side step to the right) as he fumbled the ball. If he didn't fumble, with a slight fade and Horford's position Butler would have enough separation to get a solid enough look.

On the actual shot he ends up taking, it's more off balanced than what he could have initially gotten, but could have still been a decent look. The fumble helped him only because he ended up getting fouled and shooting FT's which is still for higher percentage than any shot from the field he could have taken.

Of course it worked out, but if Al doesn't reach and foul, Butler is taking a tough shot still.

Sedale Threatt · Post #16 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Mon May 29, 2023 2:16 pm

Yeah I don’t consider being trapped in the corner without a dribble and being forced to take a bad shot an advantageous or easier position. The only reason it worked out for Butler is because Horford committed a stupid-ass bailout foul. Otherwise that’s pretty much exactly what you want as a defense.

The continued belly-aching over this really is astounding. It’s not like the officials pulled something out of their ass or misinterpreted the rules. It’s right there in black and white. I hate to give him credit as he’s the supreme know-it-all, but John Schuhmann was calling it right after it happened in terms of how people either don’t know that rule or consistently screw it up.

celtxman · Post #17 » by **celtxman** » Mon May 29, 2023 2:42 pm

Tor_Raps wrote:Ya I thought Butler 100% double dribbled there.

If there is any rule out there that makes it legal, change it immediately please. A player should be punished for fumbling, not rewarded.

Why in heaven's name would you open the door to Pandoras Box here? You have control of the ball with the dribble and decide to stop, then you put a judgement call on the referee? Terrible. That's like allowing a mulligan in the PGA. When we were in grade school they said when you put two hands on the ball after your dribble, you have two choices - pass or shoot.

Larry_Russell · Post #18 » by **Larry_Russell** » Mon May 29, 2023 2:47 pm

cam24thomas wrote:Would be so much cleaner if we could penalize players for fumbling, including when they fumble into travels and double dribbles.
Its all about skills, not finding excuses for players to keep the ball....

I agree, if a player accidentally steps on the end line it is called out of bounds.

Myth · Post #19 » by **Myth** » Mon May 29, 2023 3:33 pm

cam24thomas wrote:Why does the NBA not penalize players for fumbling the ball into a "double dribble"?
If you "double dribble" it should be a turnover whether you intended to or not....

Jimmy Butler double dribbled but it wasn't called that because they say he fumbled.
Seems wrong, because fumbling is a skill error, not just bad luck

If you dribble the ball onto your foot and lose it, that's a turnover, so fumbling into a "double dribble" should be a turnover too.

Totally agree. The Butler play should not have been called based on the established rules, but it is a dumb rule. It should require another player’s hand touching the ball to allow the rest of a dribble. It isn’t too different from over and back. If you lose control of the ball and it goes in the backcourt, you don’t get to retrieve it and simply go “oops, it was an accident.”

Post #20 » by **og15** » Mon May 29, 2023 4:11 pm

JN61 wrote:This is NBA rules. Different from basketball rules.

This might be news to you but NBA has done everything they can to make offensive player's game easier for decades now.

There are differences in these leagues, but this is not one of them. This is like the default whenever people don't like a rule is the suggestion that it is an NBA specific rule.