BrandHIM Miller: The Brandon Miller Thread

[KingCat]

And my (hopefully) one last piece on the G League vs College debate.

There is a noticeable physical difference between playing v. 18-22 years old vs playing aganist grown men in their primes.

I mean just look at two rookies this year, neither seemed to struggle vs this grown man strength.

Bryce averaged 22 ppg in swarm... college avg 16.8 ppg
Mark averaged 22 ppg in swarm... college avg 11.2 ppg
Thor averaged 19 ppg in swarm... college avg 9.4 ppg
Kai averaged 15.5 ppg in swarm... college avg 8.8 ppg

3/4 doubled scoring avg.

Might have something to do with getting to play on a NBA team where they get to work with world class trainers beforehand and practice aganist pros on the daily basis

[JMAC3]

And my (hopefully) one last piece on the G League vs College debate.

There is a noticeable physical difference between playing v. 18-22 years old vs playing aganist grown men in their primes.

I mean just look at two rookies this year, neither seemed to struggle vs this grown man strength.

Bryce averaged 22 ppg in swarm... college avg 16.8 ppg
Mark averaged 22 ppg in swarm... college avg 11.2 ppg
Thor averaged 19 ppg in swarm... college avg 9.4 ppg
Kai averaged 15.5 ppg in swarm... college avg 8.8 ppg

3/4 doubled scoring avg.

Might have something to do with getting to play on a NBA team where they get to work with world class trainers beforehand and practice aganist pros on the daily basis

Lol c'mon man... this is what I am talking about. That is beyond a weak excuse.
99% of the data could say something you and will you find a way to disagree with it.

[JMAC3]

Lester Quionnes
10 ppg nearly every year in college, went undrafted after junior year.
First year in Gleague 20.2 ppg in 49 games.

Doesn't seem like he struggled vs "grown men"

[KingCat]

I mean just look at two rookies this year, neither seemed to struggle vs this grown man strength.

Bryce averaged 22 ppg in swarm... college avg 16.8 ppg
Mark averaged 22 ppg in swarm... college avg 11.2 ppg
Thor averaged 19 ppg in swarm... college avg 9.4 ppg
Kai averaged 15.5 ppg in swarm... college avg 8.8 ppg

3/4 doubled scoring avg.

Might have something to do with getting to play on a NBA team where they get to work with world class trainers beforehand and practice aganist pros on the daily basis

Lol c'mon man... this is what I am talking about. That is beyond a weak excuse.
99% of the data could say something you and will you find a way to disagree with it.

Man lets just agree to disagree. If you don't think getting to play aganist playees at a higher level is perfect preparation to playing aganist players at the level right below, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Also I don't think you are a good judge of "excuse" strength considering your response to Miller playing like crap vs top level competition is "it's tough"

[JMAC3]

Might have something to do with getting to play on a NBA team where they get to work with world class trainers beforehand and practice aganist pros on the daily basis

Lol c'mon man... this is what I am talking about. That is beyond a weak excuse.
99% of the data could say something you and will you find a way to disagree with it.

Man lets just agree to disagree. If you don't think getting to play aganist playees at a higher level is perfect preparation to playing aganist players at the level right below, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Also I don't think you are a good judge of "excuse" strength considering your response to Miller playing like crap vs top level competition is "it's tough"

The numbers say otherwise lol... if you want to ignore the numbers over and over and over and over and over again. Because on paper you think you are right then idk what to tell you man. I can show you 50 examples and none of it matters to you, just a wild way to approach things.

I said Miller played a tough overall schedule and his overall numbers were good. I never argued against the numbers being poor. For all I know that is a common occurrence for guys every year.

If you want to take the time to put together a 20-40 player sample of how this is a unique situation for Miller and majority of the time those guys failed then I will take it more seriously. Instead of showing 1 or 2 guys where it was valid. That is not a real sample size. but I suppose that is not something you would value, based on our talks.

[KingCat]

Lol c'mon man... this is what I am talking about. That is beyond a weak excuse.
99% of the data could say something you and will you find a way to disagree with it.

Man lets just agree to disagree. If you don't think getting to play aganist playees at a higher level is perfect preparation to playing aganist players at the level right below, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Also I don't think you are a good judge of "excuse" strength considering your response to Miller playing like crap vs top level competition is "it's tough"

The numbers say otherwise lol... if you want to ignore the numbers over and over and over and over and over again. Because on paper you think you are right then idk what to tell you man. I can show you 50 examples and none of it matters to you, just a wild way to approach things.

I said Miller played a tough overall schedule and his overall numbers were good. I never argued against the numbers being poor. For all I know that is a common occurrence for guys every year.

If you want to take the time to put together a 20-40 player sample of how this is a unique situation for Miller and majority of the time those guys failed then I will take it more seriously. Instead of showing 1 or 2 guys where it was valid. That is not a real sample size. but I suppose that is not something you would value, based on our talks.

So your counter argument is that I haven't brought forth data of 20 to 40 guys that have had different experiences.... stats can tell the story alot of the times, but they can also be used to try to overcompensate and try to make people seem smarter than they actually are.

I'm not gonna spend time searching through 20 to 40 prospects that didn't shrink like Miller. If you have the time, then please feel free.

Wilson was already kind enough to bring up Tatum's stats vs top 50 competition in 2017. In case you forget as a personal defense mechanism, Tatum faired much better than Miller and didn't have nearly as dramatic a fall off.

I highly highly doubt shrinking aganist legit competition is common, or even acceptable standards for a top pick. But hey like I said, let's just agree to disagree.

[JMAC3]

Man lets just agree to disagree. If you don't think getting to play aganist playees at a higher level is perfect preparation to playing aganist players at the level right below, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Also I don't think you are a good judge of "excuse" strength considering your response to Miller playing like crap vs top level competition is "it's tough"

The numbers say otherwise lol... if you want to ignore the numbers over and over and over and over and over again. Because on paper you think you are right then idk what to tell you man. I can show you 50 examples and none of it matters to you, just a wild way to approach things.

I said Miller played a tough overall schedule and his overall numbers were good. I never argued against the numbers being poor. For all I know that is a common occurrence for guys every year.

If you want to take the time to put together a 20-40 player sample of how this is a unique situation for Miller and majority of the time those guys failed then I will take it more seriously. Instead of showing 1 or 2 guys where it was valid. That is not a real sample size. but I suppose that is not something you would value, based on our talks.

So your counter argument is that I haven't brought forth data of 20 to 40 guys that have had different experiences.... stats can tell the story alot of the times, but they can also be used to try to overcompensate and try to make people seem smarter than they actually are.

I'm not gonna spend time searching through 20 to 40 prospects that didn't shrink like Miller. If you have the time, then please feel free.

Wilson was already kind enough to bring up Tatum's stats vs top 50 competition in 2017. In case you forget as a personal defense mechanism, Tatum faired much better than Miller and didn't have nearly as dramatic a fall off.

I highly highly doubt shrinking aganist legit competition is common, or even acceptable standards for a top pick. But hey like I said, let's just agree to disagree.

Figured as much. We can drop it man, really not worth my time. Seems like that 1 example provided really wrapped it up for me. TEAM SCOOT.

[KingCat]

The numbers say otherwise lol... if you want to ignore the numbers over and over and over and over and over again. Because on paper you think you are right then idk what to tell you man. I can show you 50 examples and none of it matters to you, just a wild way to approach things.

I said Miller played a tough overall schedule and his overall numbers were good. I never argued against the numbers being poor. For all I know that is a common occurrence for guys every year.

If you want to take the time to put together a 20-40 player sample of how this is a unique situation for Miller and majority of the time those guys failed then I will take it more seriously. Instead of showing 1 or 2 guys where it was valid. That is not a real sample size. but I suppose that is not something you would value, based on our talks.

So your counter argument is that I haven't brought forth data of 20 to 40 guys that have had different experiences.... stats can tell the story alot of the times, but they can also be used to try to overcompensate and try to make people seem smarter than they actually are.

I'm not gonna spend time searching through 20 to 40 prospects that didn't shrink like Miller. If you have the time, then please feel free.

Wilson was already kind enough to bring up Tatum's stats vs top 50 competition in 2017. In case you forget as a personal defense mechanism, Tatum faired much better than Miller and didn't have nearly as dramatic a fall off.

I highly highly doubt shrinking aganist legit competition is common, or even acceptable standards for a top pick. But hey like I said, let's just agree to disagree.

Figured as much. We can drop it man, really not worth my time. Seems like that 1 example provided really wrapped it up for me. TEAM SCOOT.

Relieved to hear it man. Took a quick scroll through of prospects, and couldn't find one yet that had as great as a drop off vs top 50 as Miller. I'll let the thread know if I do find one.

[yosemiteben]

You're not going to solve the "Is GLeague better competition than college" debate here, take it to the general board if you're interested in deep diving into that. Finding a couple guys who scored more in G league than college absent all other context is not an argument winner.

[DSM346]

"Miller's camp says it is hoping he can do enough on his June 10 visit in Charlotte to convince the Hornets to give him assurances they'll pick him at this spot, something that might hinge more on how he performs in his interview than his workout. He sat down with 12 teams at the draft combine in Chicago, but arrived holding a legal brief written by his attorneys informing teams that he would not be able to comment on specific details regarding his involvement in the lead-up to the fatal shooting of Jamea Jonae Harris. It's the biggest factor holding him back from being the easy choice at No. 2, as many expect to be the case in Charlotte. Miller's fit with Charlotte's roster looks ideal, and he is considered the front-runner here if he can do enough to alleviate off-court concerns. -- Givony"

ESPN still rolling with the rumors that Miller is Charlotte's guy. "Easy choice at #2" if not for legal issues.

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Givony's statement that Brandon Miller is the easy choice with the second pick doesn't align with the fact that he mentions Miller met with 12 teams at the combine. Why would a player who is locked into the top 3 or, at worst, the top 5 be interviewing with teams significantly outside of that range? The situation with Miller is unique, and that surely plays a role. However, this contradicts what top picks traditionally choose to do.

Could be he's trying to establish himself personally with teams to dissuade them in the event other pass on him for the legal concerns.

Hopefully both him and Scoot work out for a bunch of teams and do a bunch of interviews. Just free data for Mitch to sift through

Valid points, especially considering JMAC's mention of the third pick being heavily involved in trade discussions. Taking a proactive approach to addressing the rumors and assumptions surrounding the incident and any potential character concerns is in his best interest. It also promotes more transparency between teams and prospects during the pre-draft process. Do you think this represents a broader change in the overall process, or is it more specific to Miller due to his circumstances?

Jalen Carter's camp, even though in a different professional league, made it clear that they were only engaging with teams within the top 10. That's typically the common approach when you have a good sense of your client's minimum value. As we approach draft day, we'll likely gain a clearer understanding of the true opinions held by front offices. Until then, it seems like a lot of the maneuvering is just PR tactics, mostly originating from Brandon Miller's camp. This is by no means intended as a form of slander against Brandon Miller, but rather as an expression of curiosity about his draft process.

[JDR720]

Like I posted earlier in the Scoot thread, Miller didn't do well against good college teams besides one or two games. He had a game where he didn't even make a shot.

The exact concern in the NBA is can he create his own offense vs NBA players.

The argument of Miller/Scoot seems totally disingenuous because on one hand, people seem to think Scoot can't/won't improve despite his work ethic and intangibles yet at the same time don't have concerns with Millers issues which are just as significant if not more so.

And on the G-League.

The average age of the G-league is 25. G-League players are trying to fight for a spot on an NBA team, they aren't bums. Most of them are either formerly college "stars" or former NBA players/draft picks trying to make it back to the NBA.

One of the good characteristics of potential is when younger players play well vs older competition.

[Liver_Pooty]

Like I posted earlier in the Scoot thread, Miller didn't do well against good college teams besides one or two games. He had a game where he didn't even make a shot.

The exact concern in the NBA is can he create his own offense vs NBA players.

The argument of Miller/Scoot seems totally disingenuous because on one hand, people seem to think Scoot can't/won't improve despite his work ethic and intangibles yet at the same time don't have concerns with Millers issues which are just as significant if not more so.

And on the G-League.

The average age of the G-league is 25. G-League players are trying to fight for a spot on an NBA team, they aren't bums. Most of them are either formerly college "stars" or former NBA players/draft picks trying to make it back to the NBA.

One of the good characteristics of potential is when younger players play well vs older competition.

Work ethic is so overrated. All of these players have work ethic or they wouldn't be where they are at.

[countryboi]

Like I posted earlier in the Scoot thread, Miller didn't do well against good college teams besides one or two games. He had a game where he didn't even make a shot.

The exact concern in the NBA is can he create his own offense vs NBA players.

The argument of Miller/Scoot seems totally disingenuous because on one hand, people seem to think Scoot can't/won't improve despite his work ethic and intangibles yet at the same time don't have concerns with Millers issues which are just as significant if not more so.

And on the G-League.

The average age of the G-league is 25. G-League players are trying to fight for a spot on an NBA team, they aren't bums. Most of them are either formerly college "stars" or former NBA players/draft picks trying to make it back to the NBA.

One of the good characteristics of potential is when younger players play well vs older competition.

Work ethic is so overrated. All of these players have work ethic or they wouldn't be where they are at.

work ethic is not overrated at this level its one of the few things that separates these players, when you hear guys like JJ Reddick or Kobe you can tell they are working harder than everyone else and it showed.

[fatlever]

Agreed. I know we got burned with a few workout Warriors like mkg in the past, but work ethic and the commitment and desire to get better, and the professionalism to work on your craft day in and day out, those are the things that can separate the good from the elite players, or keep role players in the league for a decade. I think it's hugely important, especially for a young team that has seemingly little maturity and leadership in the locker room.

As I said a few times, I think Scoot and Miller are close enough in terms of talent and what they would bring to the team, that the deciding factor if I was mitch, would be based on interviews, personality, and all the reports from former coaches and teammates about each player's personality, character, work ethic, and maturity.

Don't let the past experience of mkg and others downplay the importance of these things. This is something we should have learned from the Bouknight (and Monk) fiasco, as I find it seriously hard to believe there weren't plenty of red flags should have been identified during the draft process.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[JMAC3]

What more did we need to see from Miller that we are questioning his work ethic?

He won a ton of games, was SEC Player of the year, dropped 41 after the incident that included two buzzer beaters, won SEC reg season, SEC championship, improved his finishing at the rim drastically throughout the year, elite shooter (doesn't just happen if you don't work on it), was the #9 player in the country and proved he was better than that this year...

He plays both ends of the floor.... 4th in DEF win shares in the entire country.

What about any of that says he is just going to get to the NBA coast?

[LofJ]

Defensive stats are still really, really bad when it comes to evaluating individual players. They're only useful from a team context. Noah Clowney and Charles Bediako for example are elite defensive players, they are a huge reason why everyone else on that team has good defensive stats. That team in general was well coached and put together, it's not surprising that they were really good.

And before I get jumped on I'm not saying that Miller had nothing to do with it. I'm just disputing that he carried a bad team because that isn't true.

[JMAC3]

Defensive stats are still really, really bad when it comes to evaluating individual players. They're only useful from a team context. Noah Clowney and Charles Bediako for example are elite defensive players, they are a huge reason why everyone else on that team has good defensive stats. That team in general was well coached and put together, it's not surprising that they were really good.

And before I get jumped on I'm not saying that Miller had nothing to do with it. I'm just disputing that he carried a bad team because that isn't true.

You can tell he takes a lot of pride in that end, he has also specifically brought that up in interviews with taking charges and being locked in on defense.

Watch on YouTube

;t=5s

[JMAC3]

Defensive stats are still really, really bad when it comes to evaluating individual players. They're only useful from a team context. Noah Clowney and Charles Bediako for example are elite defensive players, they are a huge reason why everyone else on that team has good defensive stats. That team in general was well coached and put together, it's not surprising that they were really good.

And before I get jumped on I'm not saying that Miller had nothing to do with it. I'm just disputing that he carried a bad team because that isn't true.

You can tell he takes a lot of pride in that end, he has also specifically brought that up in interviews with taking charges and being locked in on defense.

Watch on YouTube

;t=5s

This is also where I question the athletic concerns, he is showcasing legit ability to chase guys down in the open court and erase shots like Lebron. He looks pretty fast and mobile to me. He is moving his feet at 6-9, staying in front of quick guards and contesting/blocking shots while playing on ball. Plus he is a weapon the weakside because he can still slide over and offer rim protection along with his length, he can take skip passes away and make the court smaller.

I don't think he is an elite shotblocker at the next level, but having those guys that aren't centers that can still protect rim are pretty crucial (miles, miller, pj) that at least makes defenders think about the block and can force guys into tougher shots than they need to take.

[KingCat]

I don't see Paul George, but I really think Brandon Ingram is the top comp for him.

Looking back at Ingram's scouting report, his strengths and weaknesses were near identical to Miller's (lanky, slow footed but have length to make up for it, potential to be a significant ball handler, glimpses of play making, strong shooters, gotta add some weight, etc)

I love Ingram so I'd say at this point I'm about 70% Scoot and 30% Miller (was about 95%-5% on lottery night).

My biggest hang up on not absolutely loving him as a pick is his drop off aganist stronger teams gives me some pretty significant flags, and of course the gun incident.

[LofJ]

Defensive stats are still really, really bad when it comes to evaluating individual players. They're only useful from a team context. Noah Clowney and Charles Bediako for example are elite defensive players, they are a huge reason why everyone else on that team has good defensive stats. That team in general was well coached and put together, it's not surprising that they were really good.

And before I get jumped on I'm not saying that Miller had nothing to do with it. I'm just disputing that he carried a bad team because that isn't true.

You can tell he takes a lot of pride in that end, he has also specifically brought that up in interviews with taking charges and being locked in on defense.

Watch on YouTube

;t=5s

I'm not concerned about Miller's defense. He's not going to be a lockdown perimeter defender because I don't think he has that type of agility, but he puts in effort, rebounds, and he has good awareness. He's going to be a solid defender and pretty damn good on offense, especially if he gets stronger and improves his handle.