Tatum VS Luka

[Los_29]

Swap Tatum for Luka and the Celtics would have won a championship last year and would be on the cusp of repeating this year. Tatum is a great player. Phenomenal player. But Luka is a generational player. There are levels to this.

[ITYSL]

But playing at a slow pace is only a problem if it hurts your offense because your missing out on easier transition buckets...but if your efficiency is high what's the difference? Your the one who brought up offensive ppg to try to Luka can't lead a good offense. I know there D is bad, thats why they missed the playoffs.

And your criticizing Luka for the pace he plays it, in the playoffs Boston is playing at a lower pace then the Mavs did In the regular season. Maybe that's why Boston faltered and Lukas playoff scoring Hass been more resilient

Celtics are way more talented then Mavs last 2 years. and Luka had Kyrie for less then a 3rd of the season.

I know you said his only advantage is playmaking. Because your ignoring shot creation. The amount of shots Luka creates for himself vs Tatum is massive.

Fair enough on pace vs. offensive efficiency. I'll grant you that.

I'm not ignoring shot creation. I just don't think the difference is that large. Having a bunch of unassisted shots doesn't necessarily make you a great shot creator. Curry is one of the best shot creators of our generation - he creates his shot with elite off-ball movement. Which leads to assisted FGs.

Luka is better in iso and PnR, Tatum is better in transition and posting up. I don't think it's as huge of a difference as you think it is. As I said earlier, they are both three-level scorers with a lot of tricks in the bag, who can score in many different ways, and have the ability to get to the line. The main gap on offense between them is Luka's playmaking.

[ITYSL]

Ok so lets go with this lineup:

Powell
Bullock
Tatum
Green
Irving

You think Tatum could do better playing along side Dwight Powell, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Green?

I think he'd make the playoffs. Yep.

Just throwing hypotheticals out there isn't a legit argument.

"Switch Luka and Tatum and Luka is repeating" is the other that keeps circulating.

It's quite obvious that Tatum has a better supporting cast. No doubt about that. And what ended up happening is that Tatum led a team that was 32 games over .500, 2nd best in the league, to Game 7 of the conference finals. Meanwhile, Luka led a team to 6 games under .500, 21st best in the league, to missing the play-in. That is a huge difference in outcomes that more than reflects the difference in their supporting casts.

Luka took the Mavs to the WCFs last year with the same team minus Brunson for Irving. They were above .500 and were on track to make the playoffs before the Kyrie Irving trade. They were awful after that trade and tanked the last couple games of the year. The fact is Tatum has never been on a bad team since his time with the Celtics while Luka has never had the same type of supporting cast. Luka is better/more creative offensively and is a much much better playmaker. He passes the ball like Magic Johnson and has the size to get his shot off in the paint against anyone defending him. He absolutely cooked Leonard and George in the playoffs. Tatum is a much better defender but Luka is the better player at this point.

Does this season matter at all? All I hear is excuses for Luka for leading a team that finished 11th in the West. Does he get any criticism for that, or is it only Tatum that gets criticism for losing Game 7 in the conference finals this season and having a bad finals last season?

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't fault anyone for taking Luka over Tatum, but saying it's a huge gap either way is silly.

[Godymas]

it's still Luka, but the gap has closed significantly

Tatum is very good, the modern version of the apex predator wing which has a long lineage stemming from LeBron, Kawhi, and now Tatum is in that same realm.

Tatum can also be very good defensively, he can get blocks, guard the perimeter, has the imposing size. This season was Tatum's best season individually.

Luka still has much higher highs, the offensive ceiling on Luka trumps Tatum easily. The issue is obviously defense.

However, I would argue that if Luka and Tatum swapped teams today, the Boston Celtics become a better team with Luka.

[ITYSL]

You keep mentioning Kyrie this Kyrie that. He has been with Mavs for less than half a season and played great. But had major injury issues and also missed a lot of games.

You are severly over simplifying things here. Mavs had top 5 half court offenses in the league for the past few years. That is because of slow paced and methodical play of Doncic. Mavs problems go FAR beyond their offense though. And this is something you people can't comprehend or don't want to understand.

Read on Twitter

I agree that the Mavs problems go far beyond offense. Their defense is horrid, and Luka is one of the reasons for that. Their transition offense is poor, and Luka is one of the reasons for that.

I'm not oversimplifying. I've included a ton of evidence to back up my argument that Tatum is on the same level as Doncic as a complete basketball player. It's the Luka fans that reply, post after post, with excuses for Luka.

[bfchs123]

Swap Tatum for Luka and the Celtics would have won a championship last year and would be on the cusp of repeating this year. Tatum is a great player. Phenomenal player. But Luka is a generational player. There are levels to this.

No they wouldn't have. Last year's team was built around elite defense and Luka is a sieve

[Los_29]

Swap Tatum for Luka and the Celtics would have won a championship last year and would be on the cusp of repeating this year. Tatum is a great player. Phenomenal player. But Luka is a generational player. There are levels to this.

No they wouldn't have. Last year's team was built around elite defense and Luka is a sieve

Didn't Tatum have a putrid NBA finals?

[ITYSL]

However, I would argue that if Luka and Tatum swapped teams today, the Boston Celtics become a better team with Luka.

Why would you argue that?

Brunson on DAL per 100 poss: 24/6/8, 58% TS
Brunson on NYK per 100 poss: 34/5/9, 60% TS

KP on DAL per 100: 32/14/3, 56% TS
KP on WAS per 100: 35/13/4, 62% TS

Reggie Bullock on NYK per 100: 18/6/3, 58% TS
Reggie Bullock on DAL per 100: 13/6/2, 57% TS

I don't think there's a ton of evidence that Luka elevates other players on offense, and that's ignoring his defensive issues.

[Archx]

Spoiler:

You keep mentioning Kyrie this Kyrie that. He has been with Mavs for less than half a season and played great. But had major injury issues and also missed a lot of games.

You are severly over simplifying things here. Mavs had top 5 half court offenses in the league for the past few years. That is because of slow paced and methodical play of Doncic. Mavs problems go FAR beyond their offense though. And this is something you people can't comprehend or don't want to understand.

Read on Twitter

I agree that the Mavs problems go far beyond offense. Their defense is horrid, and Luka is one of the reasons for that. Their transition offense is poor, and Luka is one of the reasons for that.

I'm not oversimplifying. I've included a ton of evidence to back up my argument that Tatum is on the same level as Doncic as a complete basketball player. It's the Luka fans that reply, post after post, with excuses for Luka.

This graph is from last year when even Brunson was on the team. And i suggest you read the article to fully understand how much impact he really has on Mavs offense.

Read on Twitter

When Doncic heads to the bench, Brunson’s SSQ drops from 0.98 expected points per shot down to 0.93 (in other words, Luka’s presence adds 4.3 expected points per 100 Brunson shots).

Bullock’s shot quality improved by 1.8 expected points per 100 shots with Doncic on the court.
Maxi Kleber’s shot quality improved by 4.9 expected points per 100 shots with Doncic on the court.

etc...

AST%
Doncic 42%
Tatum 20%

AST Points created per game
Doncic 21
Tatum 12

I don't think there's a ton of evidence that Luka elevates other players on offense, and that's ignoring his defensive issues.

Is Tatum's defense really at an all time high so that he doesn't have to elevate others aswell? Or does this rule only apply to one player?

[ITYSL]

This graph is from last year when even Brunson was on the team. And i suggest you read the article to fully understand how much impact he really has on Mavs offense.

Read on Twitter

When Doncic heads to the bench, Brunson’s SSQ drops from 0.98 expected points per shot down to 0.93 (in other words, Luka’s presence adds 4.3 expected points per 100 Brunson shots).

Bullock’s shot quality improved by 1.8 expected points per 100 shots with Doncic on the court.
Maxi Kleber’s shot quality improved by 4.9 expected points per 100 shots with Doncic on the court.

etc...

AST%
Doncic 42%
Tatum 20%

AST Points created per game
Doncic 21
Tatum 12

I don't think there's a ton of evidence that Luka elevates other players on offense, and that's ignoring his defensive issues.

Is Tatum's defense really at an all time high so that he doesn't have to elevate others aswell? Or does this rule only apply to one player?

That's a cool graphic from more than a year ago. Here's one from this season - how is Tatum near the top there? Weird:

Read on Twitter

Also, from the same Twitter account last season - is this good?

Read on Twitter

Luka is by far the better playmaker, but let's not pretend like Tatum is some bum in that regard.

Meanwhile, from the exact article in the link you posted, here's expected points saved on defense - is this good for Tatum that he's near the top here, or nah?


These are all reasons why it's silly to say that Luka is head-and-shoulders better than Tatum, or that is there is any sizable gap between them. I still wouldn't blame anyone who preferred Luka, though. I get it.

[Archx]

Spoiler:

This graph is from last year when even Brunson was on the team. And i suggest you read the article to fully understand how much impact he really has on Mavs offense.

Read on Twitter

When Doncic heads to the bench, Brunson’s SSQ drops from 0.98 expected points per shot down to 0.93 (in other words, Luka’s presence adds 4.3 expected points per 100 Brunson shots).

Bullock’s shot quality improved by 1.8 expected points per 100 shots with Doncic on the court.
Maxi Kleber’s shot quality improved by 4.9 expected points per 100 shots with Doncic on the court.

etc...

AST%
Doncic 42%
Tatum 20%

AST Points created per game
Doncic 21
Tatum 12

I don't think there's a ton of evidence that Luka elevates other players on offense, and that's ignoring his defensive issues.

Is Tatum's defense really at an all time high so that he doesn't have to elevate others aswell? Or does this rule only apply to one player?

That's a cool graphic from more than a year ago. Here's one from this season - how is Tatum near the top there? Weird:

Read on Twitter

Also, from the same Twitter account last season - is this good?

Read on Twitter

Luka is by far the better playmaker, but let's not pretend like Tatum is some bum in that regard.

Meanwhile, from the exact article in the link you posted, here's expected points saved on defense - is this good for Tatum that he's near the top here, or nah?

These are all reasons why it's silly to say that Luka is head-and-shoulders better than Tatum, or that is there is any sizable gap between them. I still wouldn't blame anyone who preferred Luka, though. I get it.

Thanks for providing updated graph, i missed that one. Though, the jumps in value are quite big, specially when you go down the ladder.

You claimed Luka doesn't elevate his teammates i just wanted to point out how much he actually does for the team. But i never said that his defense is better than Tatum's, i only asked if you believe that Tatum's defensive game is THAT much significant.

Just like you say, Tatum is a huge part of Bostons offense and defense. Mavs were 6th best last year on defense and Doncic was also a huge part of that. So, it's safe to say that he can play defense, it's a matter of being unfit or too lazy.

I think it would be a better question who is more dedicated to being in shape and i think voting results would be reversed

[Mickey8]

Luka is way superior player to Tatum. Threads like these shouldn't exist at all.

[ITYSL]

Thanks for providing updated graph, i missed that one. Though, the jumps in value are quite big, specially when you go down the ladder.

You claimed Luka doesn't elevate his teammates i just wanted to point out how much he actually does for the team. But i never said that his defense is better than Tatum's, i only asked if you believe that Tatum's defensive game is THAT much significant.

Just like you say, Tatum is a huge part of Bostons offense and defense. Mavs were 6th best last year on defense and Doncic was also a huge part of that. So, it's safe to say that he can play defense, it's a matter of being unfit or too lazy.

I think it would be a better question who is more dedicated to being in shape and i think voting results would be reversed

I respect that, man. You provided some evidence that I hadn't seen before, about the expected points added, which I agree puts Luka in a really good light. I just can't stand the type of posts that say "If you switched them, this would happen," because it's just a claim without any evidence.

I don't even really like threads like this, because I end up **** on Luka even though I think Luka is an amazing player. Most teams would be ecstatic to have either.

[GusFring]

Luka is so much smarter than Tatum is, surprised anyone voted for JT.

[Wagonband]

This thread is basically;

90% of Boston Fans: Tatum is better

The rest of RealGM: Luka is better.

It's quite easy if you put away your homer goggles that Luka is better. And him being a defensive liability wouldn't be such a big issue with 4 other great defenders. And Tatum isn't any scary lock up defender either. He is ok, but people are acting that he is an all-nba defender lol.

Also, a Boston fan really said Tatum has the edge on Luka in the post... What. Do you even watch basketball? Luka is one of the best players in the league in the post.

Tatum is a better defender than Luka, and that's the only place where he gets an edge.

[_qubik]

I think he'd make the playoffs. Yep.

Just throwing hypotheticals out there isn't a legit argument.

"Switch Luka and Tatum and Luka is repeating" is the other that keeps circulating.

It's quite obvious that Tatum has a better supporting cast. No doubt about that. And what ended up happening is that Tatum led a team that was 32 games over .500, 2nd best in the league, to Game 7 of the conference finals. Meanwhile, Luka led a team to 6 games under .500, 21st best in the league, to missing the play-in. That is a huge difference in outcomes that more than reflects the difference in their supporting casts.

Luka took the Mavs to the WCFs last year with the same team minus Brunson for Irving. They were above .500 and were on track to make the playoffs before the Kyrie Irving trade. They were awful after that trade and tanked the last couple games of the year. The fact is Tatum has never been on a bad team since his time with the Celtics while Luka has never had the same type of supporting cast. Luka is better/more creative offensively and is a much much better playmaker. He passes the ball like Magic Johnson and has the size to get his shot off in the paint against anyone defending him. He absolutely cooked Leonard and George in the playoffs. Tatum is a much better defender but Luka is the better player at this point.

Does this season matter at all? All I hear is excuses for Luka for leading a team that finished 11th in the West. Does he get any criticism for that, or is it only Tatum that gets criticism for losing Game 7 in the conference finals this season and having a bad finals last season?

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't fault anyone for taking Luka over Tatum, but saying it's a huge gap either way is silly.

It is a huuuuuuuge gap :p

[AussieCeltic]

Swap Tatum for Luka and the Celtics would have won a championship last year and would be on the cusp of repeating this year. Tatum is a great player. Phenomenal player. But Luka is a generational player. There are levels to this.

No they wouldn't have. Last year's team was built around elite defense and Luka is a sieve

Didn't Tatum have a putrid NBA finals?

Yes, but your assumption is that Luka is automatically going to have a great finals when we know the finals are a different beast.

Look at guys like Lebron in his first finals. Being a great player in the early rounds doesn’t automatically guarantee a great finals.

Let’s see Luka make one first before making any claims.

[Mirotic12]

Luka is way better.

[pedrobrazil1000]

they are similar as scorers (even tho i still think doncic is a better one) and luka is god-level playmaker.

also, the defensive gap is not as important as the playmaking difference. Luka really is an unbelieavable passer and playmaker

[YogurtProducer]

However, I would argue that if Luka and Tatum swapped teams today, the Boston Celtics become a better team with Luka.

Why would you argue that?

Brunson on DAL per 100 poss: 24/6/8, 58% TS
Brunson on NYK per 100 poss: 34/5/9, 60% TS

KP on DAL per 100: 32/14/3, 56% TS
KP on WAS per 100: 35/13/4, 62% TS

Reggie Bullock on NYK per 100: 18/6/3, 58% TS
Reggie Bullock on DAL per 100: 13/6/2, 57% TS

I don't think there's a ton of evidence that Luka elevates other players on offense, and that's ignoring his defensive issues.

"why do players have worse #'s when they have lower usage?"