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2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread

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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#261 » by urinesane » Fri Jun 2, 2023 4:15 pm

minimus wrote:I wonder whether it was the same GM who built current DEN team that is all about chemistry AND traded for Gobert and now we have little chemistry in MIN... I prefer to think that Connelly first trade was change of direction from offensive minded team to defensive minded, and all following moves such as Anderson signing and Conley trade were steps in this direction, so our chemistry both in offense and defense will grow


https://dunkingwithwolves.com/2023/05/28/mike-malone-reveals-tim-connelly-almost-ruined-nuggets/


Keep in mind that most of that article is based on this article https://theathletic.com/4538239/2023/05/21/nuggets-michael-malone-jamal-murray-exclusive-interviews

But for Malone, whose Nuggets tenure has long served as a referendum on the decision of Kings owner Vivek Ranadivé to fire him just 24 games into his second season, this is all an indictment of that sort of knee-jerk reaction ethos that is so prevalent in pro sports. Many owners and executives, as we’ve been reminded in these past few weeks in places like Phoenix (the firing of Monty Williams), Milwaukee (Mike Budenholzer), and Philadelphia (Doc Rivers), tend to reach for the panic button when the desired result doesn’t come quickly enough for their liking. So no, in other words, Malone’s experience back in his Sacramento days was hardly an outlier then or now.

But this Nuggets story, one that never could have unfolded if they hadn’t taken the long view all along the way, is the kind of thing that should make power brokers around the league think twice.

What if the Nuggets had parted ways with Malone back in 2018, when the Nuggets’ overtime loss to Minnesota on the last day of the regular season kept them out of the playoffs for the third time in his three-year tenure?

What if they’d decided not to build around Jokić, whose unorthodox style and physique created so much doubt around the league during those early years? What if they’d pivoted off of Jamal Murray — both before and after the ACL tear that cost him all of last season?



I think this group realized that — when healthy — we have a chance to do something really special. And I think the guys on our team, especially the core guys, really appreciate that it’s the NBA and it’s a business but we have a collegiate family type of atmosphere. And guys have all improved here. I think they realize that the grass is not always greener, you know what I mean? It’s not always greener, and I think Nikola realizes that, ‘Ok, I’m playing for a franchise that has made me their guy and built everything around me.’ Jamal Murray, the amount of growth and maturity is just incredible. Our guys aren’t leaving to go here or there. Our thing is organic. It’s real. And guys have bought into that. And that’s why, now that we’re healthy, I think we’re back to showing everybody what we’re capable of.


I remember Tim (Connelly) calling me up, (and saying), ‘Hey, we can trade Jamal for this guy.’ (This was) probably three or four years ago — (and it was) a marquee player. I said ‘No.’ Like, ‘What? Let’s not rush this. We have a patient ownership group. Let’s f—ing take our time and build this the right way. A bigger name is not always better.’ There are countless, different examples (like that). (Nuggets president) Josh (Kroenke) said to me after we lost to Minnesota (in the aforementioned regular-season finale in 2018), and Josh was like, ‘Man, I’m so excited about our two young players — Jamal and Nikola just balled out in Game 82.’ It was the play-in game before the play-in, and Josh’s reaction was, ‘Wow, we’re gonna be really good in a few years.’ Just the ability of ownership to be patient and not overreact (was key). Patience is not something you talk about in the NBA, or pro sports. And I think I, and we, are a perfect example of the results of being patient and saying, ‘You know what? Let’s continue to let this grow and marinate and mature and then we can see what we really have.’ And I think we’re seeing it.


The last quoted section is basically what the entire DunkingWithWolves blog post is about, but I see it as Connelly bringing up ideas to potentially improve the team and listening to his coach before making a decision (and trusting his judgement). Even though there may have been pressure (much like he is currently facing) to make a move, I think that shows strength, not some sort of weakness/lack of judgement the blog post was trying to imply by it's title.

The smart move was to turn players that weren't a long-term fit into an impact player (Gobert) and take advantage of KAT's prime and an immerging star in Ant. The REALLY BAD move that most correlates to trading Murray at that time would have been including McDaniels in a trade for a more well established player, which Connelly and the team refused to do.

Which shows me that it's the same Tim Connelly that trusted the judgement of his coach. Again, I think that article spins what is actually a positive trait in Connelly (listening to the experts around him) and tries to sell it as if he was somehow propped up by Malone. Also, keep in mind that they never named the player that they were thinking of trading for...
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#262 » by Calinks » Mon Jun 5, 2023 5:45 pm

I really thought Denver was going to smoke the Heat in most of these games. I said Nuggets in 5 and it can still happen but they definitely showed a few warts last nights. Seems like whenever Jokic has to score, they are in big trouble. I really think the key is making Jokic have to be that guy, let him drop 40, jack a bunch of shots, and take his teammates out of the game. Make him do that a whole series and you might tire him out.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#263 » by Baseline81 » Mon Jun 5, 2023 6:10 pm

Calinks wrote:I really though Denver was going to smoke the Heat in most of these games. I said Nuggets in 5 and it can still happen but they definitely showed a few warts last nights. Seems like whenever Jokic has to score, they are in big trouble. I really think the key is making Jokic have to be that guy, let him drop 40, jack a bunch of shots, and take his teammates out of the game. Make him do that a whole series and you might tire him out.

Do we think the Heat will continue to shoot 48.6% 3P% for the remainder of the series?
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#264 » by frankenwolf » Tue Jun 6, 2023 8:41 pm

Devilzsidewalk wrote:It's kinda sad to see what a unique identity Jokic has been able to carve out with the help of Malone, and meanwhile, we start out with what was at one time, the #1 prospect in the NBA, and now 8 years and 4 coaches later, he has no identity still. An absolute travesty of development, or lack there-of.


Definitely lack there-of. Four coaches, four different styles, four different "What we need KAT to do" situations. If (and this is a big if), the Wolves had hired a competent coach after Thibs rather than waste two years of KAT, how different a player could he have been? Of course, with that change, do the Wolves draft Ant because our record might be better? Time travel is tricky.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#265 » by Battletrigger » Tue Jun 6, 2023 9:05 pm

People sometimes forget that this is not the 2k, each player is a human being with more or less quality but with his personality.

Jokic was worse than Kat when both enter the league but his personality and learning curve was better. And this is one major factor why I want to trade Towns, he is a goofy that underperformers under pressure.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#266 » by Calinks » Wed Jun 7, 2023 1:12 am

Battletrigger wrote:People sometimes forget that this is not the 2k, each player is a human being with more or less quality but with his personality.

Jokic was worse than Kat when both enter the league but his personality and learning curve was better. And this is one major factor why I want to trade Towns, he is a goofy that underperformers under pressure.

I think where you land plays a huge role though.Kat has altered his game several times to try and fit the team style better. He used to be a big post user and scorer. Then a couple of years ago with Finch and the new direction he turned his game into more of an attack/driving game which was very effective against other centers. Then this year he is put in a positon where he has to play PF and alter his game again.

He has never had a consistent team to fit into. He has been yo-yooed a lot with new coaches, GM's, team play styles. Not saying Jokic isn't a better player but Jokic has had one coach and largely the same front office group who has honed this team into what it was. For 8 years they have been building this team around him to get to this point. Many of his teammates have been there for years and even though there have been injuries, those guys had roles tailor-made to fit in when they got healthy.

Wolves have bounced GM's coaches, and teammates like crazy. Consistency is extremely low. Really hard to develop a clear identity during all of that. Minnesota incompetence and that's one of the reason's I don't want to fire Finch and grow Ant up in that kind of environment. We need to make an identity and start building towards it.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#267 » by urinesane » Wed Jun 7, 2023 1:04 pm

Calinks wrote:
Battletrigger wrote:People sometimes forget that this is not the 2k, each player is a human being with more or less quality but with his personality.

Jokic was worse than Kat when both enter the league but his personality and learning curve was better. And this is one major factor why I want to trade Towns, he is a goofy that underperformers under pressure.

I think where you land plays a huge role though. At has altered his game several times to try and fit the team style better. He used to be a big post user and scorer. Then a couple of years ago with Finch and the new direction he turned his game into more of an attack/driving game which was very effective against other centers. Then this year he is put in a positon where he has to play PF and later his game again.

He has never had a consistent team to fit into. He has been yo-yooed a lot with new coaches, GM's, team play styles. Not saying Jokic isn't a better player but Jokic has had one coach and largely the same front office group who has honed this team into what it was. For 8 years they have been building this team around him to get to this point. Mayny of his teammates have been there for years and even thogh there have been injuries, those guys had roles taylor made to fit in when they got healthy.

Wolves have bounced GM's coaches, and teammates like crazy. Consistency is extremely low. Really hard to develop a clear identity during all of that. Minnesota incompetence and that's one of the reason's I don't want to fire Finch and grow Ant up in that kind of environment. We need to make an identity and start building towards it.


The thing I find impressive about KAT is that he has been asked to do a lot of things that most big men simply aren't capable of and has not only done then, but at a pretty high level. Like you said so well consistency has been a big factor in the situation and unfortunately I think many will read your post and argue that you are saying with some consistency that KAT would somehow be as special as Jokic, which I don't believe you are saying at all. I do believe with more consistency the flimsy arguments of KAT not having a decent BBIQ (doesn't have to be Jokic to still be good), not a "big game" performer (it's not like he's had a ton of big game experience), or "doesn't show up in the playoffs" (when last season he was not anywhere near playoff shape and still was decent overall, and against Memphis was one of our better players).

The tiring part is the polarization and the extremes that people convince themselves of in order to backup their opinions. Most things are not to the extremes, they are in the middle, but that takes an open mind and honest discussions to better understand. It's much easier to just plant a flag at one end and dig in with cherry picked stats and monday morning quaterbacking.

All of that is to say, great post once again. Thank you for being so level headed.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#268 » by yojimbo » Wed Jun 7, 2023 5:28 pm

I do primary research on these issues and consistency/stability is wildly undervalued just about everywhere in the business world as well as in sports. This is especially true when it comes to leadership. The effects of changing leaders are asymmetric - they tend to be negative unless the old leaders were really bad. There will always be a bit of turnover, and that is healthy if modest and expected (i.e. Naz getting paid by someone else, and Gobert/Conley aging out in a couple of years). Would love to see the Wolves bet on stability in the rest of the system.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#269 » by Calinks » Wed Jun 7, 2023 6:03 pm

Yea. I think we kind of botched KAT, I mean he's still a great player, he still has had a hell of a career, but we could never get anything stable around him. I think he is kind of a Swiss army knife of big men but that has hurt him we keep asking him to change this or that, we keep trying different things. I think the 2021-2022 season things finally clicked, we found a team and play style that suited him well. The high wall gave him his best defense, he was engaged on both sides of the floor. Then we flipped it up again.

Now at this point, with his contract and the others we have, it's going to be hard to keep him. We are probably going to have to put him somewhere else but hopefully, for his sake he will have a clearly defined role and can maximize his talent. We can't do this to Edwards, we need to consistently build our team through him with a focused vision. So far Ant has had it better, for one he has had some solid vets (though we keep rotating them out) and he has had younger all-star caliber vets like Towns to fall back on. I really hope we don't screw this up.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#270 » by TimberKat » Thu Jun 8, 2023 2:41 am

Calinks wrote:Yea. I think we kind of botched KAT, I mean he's still a great player, he still has had a hell of a career, but we could never get anything stable around him. I think he is kind of a Swiss army knife of big men but that has hurt him we keep asking him to change this or that, we keep trying different things. I think the 2021-2022 season things finally clicked, we found a team and play style that suited him well. The high wall gave him his best defense, he was engaged on both sides of the floor. Then we flipped it up again.

Now at this point, with his contract and the others we have, it's going to be hard to keep him. We are probably going to have to put him somewhere else but hopefully, for his sake he will have a clearly defined role and can maximize his talent. We can't do this to Edwards, we need to consistently build our team through him with a focused vision. So far Ant has had it better, for one he has had some solid vets (though we keep rotating them out) and he has had younger all-star caliber vets like Towns to fall back on. I really hope we don't screw this up.

While I agree we could had use a lot more organizational stability around him. However, his basketball IQ concerns are really his own doing. The high wall wasn't going to work in the long run and on a consistent basis. You need like 3 lines to run that. He had Butler but somehow didn't get along. We can't definitively say who's to blame. Maybe some of you have inside info on it. Everybody in the NBA adjusts almost every year. Look at Davis and PG? I don't think his role really changed a lot this year, especially on offense. There is some adjustment on D but he played with Dieng, Gibson, and Vanderbilt before. If he can't adjust to it, doesn't that speak to his on court IQ? Ultimately, we can't use this year to judge Towns because of all the injuries.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#271 » by Baseline81 » Thu Jun 8, 2023 3:54 am

Baseline81 wrote:Do we think the Heat will continue to shoot 48.6% 3P% for the remainder of the series?

Odd to quote myself, but Miami came down to Earth tonight shooting 31.4% on 35 attempts. Contrast that with Denver's 27.8% on 18 attempts. Doesn't exactly bode well for the Heat.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#272 » by urinesane » Thu Jun 8, 2023 1:04 pm

TimberKat wrote:
Calinks wrote:Yea. I think we kind of botched KAT, I mean he's still a great player, he still has had a hell of a career, but we could never get anything stable around him. I think he is kind of a Swiss army knife of big men but that has hurt him we keep asking him to change this or that, we keep trying different things. I think the 2021-2022 season things finally clicked, we found a team and play style that suited him well. The high wall gave him his best defense, he was engaged on both sides of the floor. Then we flipped it up again.

Now at this point, with his contract and the others we have, it's going to be hard to keep him. We are probably going to have to put him somewhere else but hopefully, for his sake he will have a clearly defined role and can maximize his talent. We can't do this to Edwards, we need to consistently build our team through him with a focused vision. So far Ant has had it better, for one he has had some solid vets (though we keep rotating them out) and he has had younger all-star caliber vets like Towns to fall back on. I really hope we don't screw this up.

While I agree we could had use a lot more organizational stability around him. However, his basketball IQ concerns are really his own doing. The high wall wasn't going to work in the long run and on a consistent basis. You need like 3 lines to run that. He had Butler but somehow didn't get along. We can't definitively say who's to blame. Maybe some of you have inside info on it. Everybody in the NBA adjusts almost every year. Look at Davis and PG? I don't think his role really changed a lot this year, especially on offense. There is some adjustment on D but he played with Dieng, Gibson, and Vanderbilt before. If he can't adjust to it, doesn't that speak to his on court IQ? Ultimately, we can't use this year to judge Towns because of all the injuries.


I think part of the issue with KAT in the past is that he felt so much responsibility to be the leader/top guy that he tried to do too much. On pretty much every other roster down low, he didn't have anyone really to help on defense when he got beat. Also, with intent of being a great team player (but at his own detriment), he would always adapt his game to what was asked of him.

In some ways he needs to just laser focus on his role and simplify things, which I believe on defense as he gets more time with Rudy he can grow to trust that Rudy can help rather than trying to get back into the play from behind and making a bad foul.

He was never allowed to have a specific role and work on it year after year, he always had to be not only the guy living up to #1 pick expectations, but also the one who adapted when people like Jimmy came to town for a cup of coffee. I'm hoping that with the immergence of Ant and bringing in Rudy, that KAT can finally focus on a carved out role and not have to try and be a jack of all trades.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#273 » by shrink » Thu Jun 8, 2023 4:57 pm

I’d like to see DEN win 4-1, because it helps dispel this tired old adage, “You can only win with a defensive center,” and may raise KAT’s trade value.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#274 » by minimus » Thu Jun 8, 2023 7:30 pm

shrink wrote:I’d like to see DEN win 4-1, because it helps dispel this tired old adage, “You can only win with a defensive center,” and may raise KAT’s trade value.

Anyone who watched SAC this year and MIN last year understands how valuable Towns can be in five-out scheme with right personnel around
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#275 » by bluethunder0005 » Fri Jun 9, 2023 11:41 am

shrink wrote:I’d like to see DEN win 4-1, because it helps dispel this tired old adage, “You can only win with a defensive center,” and may raise KAT’s trade value.


I agree but Jokic is also a way better defender than KAT is. Jokic doesn't block shots but he is almost always in the right spot, he takes up a lot of space, and he has great hands that deflect/steal the ball. KAT does none of those things.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#276 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 9, 2023 2:55 pm

bluethunder0005 wrote:
shrink wrote:I’d like to see DEN win 4-1, because it helps dispel this tired old adage, “You can only win with a defensive center,” and may raise KAT’s trade value.


I agree but Jokic is also a way better defender than KAT is. Jokic doesn't block shots but he is almost always in the right spot, he takes up a lot of space, and he has great hands that deflect/steal the ball. KAT does none of those things.


And Jokic doesn't foul.

Jokic is absolutely a + defender. He has weaknesses but they aren't easy to exploit when you have actual defensive wings/guards around him.

That is why I think we can be fine with Towns. We can surround him with good defenders.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#277 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 9, 2023 2:55 pm

minimus wrote:
shrink wrote:I’d like to see DEN win 4-1, because it helps dispel this tired old adage, “You can only win with a defensive center,” and may raise KAT’s trade value.

Anyone who watched SAC this year and MIN last year understands how valuable Towns can be in five-out scheme with right personnel around


People still think Sabonis is better than KAT, even after Sabonis' horrific post-season.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#278 » by Battletrigger » Fri Jun 9, 2023 3:57 pm

Jokic is in another level, both in the offensive and defensive side. You cannot extrapolate Jokic to Towns.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#279 » by shrink » Fri Jun 9, 2023 6:04 pm

Battletrigger wrote:Jokic is in another level, both in the offensive and defensive side. You cannot extrapolate Jokic to Towns.

When people talk about Jokic, they don’t say, “but how’s his defense?”

When people talk about KAT, they always say, “but how’s his defense?”

I did not say Towns is as good as Jokic. I said there has been a long-standing fallacy in the NBA that the center position must be the anchor of a defense, and that is far more important than getting offensive production there. Jokic’s offense, both scoring and passing, and not his defense, is the main engine driving the Nuggets. If this helps end the fallacy, that’s good for Towns’ trade value.
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Re: 2023 Around The League NBA Playoffs Thread 

Post#280 » by shrink » Fri Jun 9, 2023 6:09 pm

Colbinii wrote:
minimus wrote:
shrink wrote:I’d like to see DEN win 4-1, because it helps dispel this tired old adage, “You can only win with a defensive center,” and may raise KAT’s trade value.

Anyone who watched SAC this year and MIN last year understands how valuable Towns can be in five-out scheme with right personnel around


People still think Sabonis is better than KAT, even after Sabonis' horrific post-season.

I suspect his poor post season with high expectations will hurt him, and he will be ranked below KAT next year, after LAT has a few games under their belt.

Sabonis isn’t a bad player, but we often see the public over-rate or under-rate individual players based on team success. Did the Knicks have a good year? Voters honor the team by making Randle All NBA. Ditto for Sabonis. It’s impressive that Towns has two All NBA selections despite mediocre team play and little team pub or team playoff success.

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