2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

[MyUniBroDavis]

Jokic is both a more resilient and consistent scorer than Curry, and in another plane of existence as a passer.

It's been a long time since I've seen a player climbing the stairs of people's pantheons so fast,in real time, both in the General Board and Player Comparison. it didn't happen with Giannis, Curry, Durant....(you have to go back to Lebron, TD, Shaq).

and Murray is really something to study and analyze.
He went from hot/cold PS player to second...smaller... head of the snake. if he's taken a real step in decision making, the league is screwed against this duo.

It def happened with Giannis...........He had 2 big chokes as the favorite in 2019 and 2020.......then alot seemed to forget overnight after the 2021 title where it was one of the most injury impacted runs in recent history. Ppl were asking if Giannis is top 20 alltime. Is he the best European player ever etc etc........comparing his peak to likes of Hakeem and Timmy which he had no business in those convos. Comparing Giannis accolades at a similar age to Bron and saying hes on pace to reach Bron

Its like ppl didnt remember him dropping off in playoffs before 21..........but the last 2 years now has corrected perceptions back for Giannis..........I dont envision same happening for Jokic...........It feels floodgates will open and hes gonna leave the rest of his gen in the dust including Giannis and Luka...........the Embiid comps are dead forever

I don’t really think Giannis performances this first round was a big deal considering bro needed iv fluids lol, very much was an it is what it is performance for me, we’ll see how they are next year

[GSP]

Really bad performance by Miami. Denver shot 5-18 from 3 and won comfortably. It's time for Spo to make some adjustments.

The 3pt shooting isnt a fluke. They were shooting 19/55 before game 3. Spo has taken Kcp and Mpj out of the series their 2 best 3pt shooters but paint has opened and Denver took full advantage game 3 specially Braun and Gordon has been their 3rd best player all series. Jokic and Murray outtalented them and had a historic performance from a duo

Miami played good enough defense to win. Bigger story is 11/35 from 3...........In the loss to Knicks w/ Jimmy and losses against us they shot horribly from 3...........they only had 4 turnovers which is............unfathomable. This is one of the most make or miss teams ever. They have no shot if 3s arent falling but they can beat anyone if theyre going in..........you can say that for alot of teams but the variance for this Heat run is obvious.

Spo continues to have arguably best coaching run ever in a playoffs he has the executing to perfection but shots didnt fall for em. I think they even it up..........

[Gooner]

Really bad performance by Miami. Denver shot 5-18 from 3 and won comfortably. It's time for Spo to make some adjustments.

The 3pt shooting isnt a fluke. They were shooting 19/55 before game 3. Spo has taken Kcp and Mpj out of the series their 2 best 3pt shooters but paint has opened and Denver took full advantage game 3 specially Braun and Gordon has been their 3rd best player all series. Jokic and Murray outtalented them and had a historic performance from a duo

Miami played good enough defense to win. Bigger story is 11/35 from 3...........In the loss to Knicks w/ Jimmy and losses against us they shot horribly from 3...........they only had 4 turnovers which is............unfathomable. This is one of the most make or miss teams ever. They have no shot if 3s arent falling but they can beat anyone if theyre going in..........you can say that for alot of teams but the variance for this Heat run is obvious.

Spo continues to have arguably best coaching run ever in a playoffs he has the executing to perfection but shots didnt fall for em. I think they even it up..........

I know, my point is that their man to man and paint defense need to be better. 3 point shot is important, but you can't let the opponent live in the paint. It's tough to find a balance in today's game but Spo needs to figure it out. Offensively I thought they settled a lot, they need to make an extra pass to move Denver, but they also missed a lot of makeable shots. Overall a really poor game, but losses always give you more clarity and Spo will push the right buttons for the next one.

[70sFan]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

[70sFan]

Also, what's your thought about Jokic defense this game? To me it was by far his best defensive game in the finals so far, he was legitimately good and caused a lot of problems for Miami inside.

[Gooner]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

They also switch Bam a lot and have small guys on Jokic. The idea is to stop the 3, and they did that, but they can't stop Denver from scoring inside. It will be interesting to see what Spo does next. They need to be more compact defensively. Denver rotates a lot on the other side and Miami needs to move the ball more. Bam is trying to be agressive on Jokic but he is getting a bit out of his comfort zone with all those mid range shots. I think Butler needs to take more of these free throw line jumpers instead as Jokic is dropping deep.

[70sFan]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

They also switch Bam a lot and have small guys on Jokic. The idea is to stop the 3, and they did that, but they can't stop Denver from scoring inside. It will be interesting to see what Spo does next. They need to be more compact defensively. Denver rotates a lot on the other side and Miami needs to move the ball more. Bam is trying to be agressive on Jokic but he is getting a bit out of his comfort zone with all those mid range shots. I think Butler needs to take more of these free throw line jumpers instead as Jokic is dropping deep.

Denver force these switches, it's not Miami choice at all. Bam usually switches onto perimeter players at will, but in this series the Heat try to do everything to prevent switches. Sometimes it's not possible though, unless you want to get open shot after open shot for Murray. So no, Miami isn't focused on the three point line, they just don't have the tools to stop Nuggets size.

[NO-KG-AI]

It's been a long time since I've seen a player climbing the stairs of people's pantheons so fast,in real time, both in the General Board and Player Comparison. it didn't happen with Giannis, Curry, Durant....(you have to go back to Lebron, TD, Shaq).

and Murray is really something to study and analyze.
He went from hot/cold PS player to second...smaller... head of the snake. if he's taken a real step in decision making, the league is screwed against this duo.

It def happened with Giannis...........He had 2 big chokes as the favorite in 2019 and 2020.......then alot seemed to forget overnight after the 2021 title where it was one of the most injury impacted runs in recent history. Ppl were asking if Giannis is top 20 alltime. Is he the best European player ever etc etc........comparing his peak to likes of Hakeem and Timmy which he had no business in those convos. Comparing Giannis accolades at a similar age to Bron and saying hes on pace to reach Bron

Its like ppl didnt remember him dropping off in playoffs before 21..........but the last 2 years now has corrected perceptions back for Giannis..........I dont envision same happening for Jokic...........It feels floodgates will open and hes gonna leave the rest of his gen in the dust including Giannis and Luka...........the Embiid comps are dead forever

I don’t really think Giannis performances this first round was a big deal considering bro needed iv fluids lol, very much was an it is what it is performance for me, we’ll see how they are next year

Giannis impact numbers never hit those monster peak seasons some of the guys named. His box scores were insane, but like his floor impact were more like a good all time great’s season, and not like a truly peak one. Jokic’s impact and box scores are looking a good as anyone the last 25-30 years peak wise.

It’s pretty insane.

[Gooner]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

They also switch Bam a lot and have small guys on Jokic. The idea is to stop the 3, and they did that, but they can't stop Denver from scoring inside. It will be interesting to see what Spo does next. They need to be more compact defensively. Denver rotates a lot on the other side and Miami needs to move the ball more. Bam is trying to be agressive on Jokic but he is getting a bit out of his comfort zone with all those mid range shots. I think Butler needs to take more of these free throw line jumpers instead as Jokic is dropping deep.

Denver force these switches, it's not Miami choice at all. Bam usually switches onto perimeter players at will, but in this series the Heat try to do everything to prevent switches. Sometimes it's not possible though, unless you want to get open shot after open shot for Murray. So no, Miami isn't focused on the three point line, they just don't have the tools to stop Nuggets size.

It's always a choice of defense how they want to defend the pick and roll. Problem is not with Bam defending the perimeter, it's the smaller guys defending inside. They were switching more in the second half and they fell apart.

[NO-KG-AI]

Also, what's your thought about Jokic defense this game? To me it was by far his best defensive game in the finals so far, he was legitimately good and caused a lot of problems for Miami inside.

The whole team. For a team without a real shotblocker, no dominant wing defender, and not a bunch of high pressure perimeter guys, they are just playing excellent defense. High energy, cohesion, size, communication and effort is going a long long way right now.

As for Jokic himself, he’s huge and basically an immovable object. He has to be incredibly tiring to try and score over and through. It adds up like body punches as the fight goes on.

[AEnigma]

It def happened with Giannis...........He had 2 big chokes as the favorite in 2019 and 2020.......then alot seemed to forget overnight after the 2021 title where it was one of the most injury impacted runs in recent history. Ppl were asking if Giannis is top 20 alltime. Is he the best European player ever etc etc........comparing his peak to likes of Hakeem and Timmy which he had no business in those convos. Comparing Giannis accolades at a similar age to Bron and saying hes on pace to reach Bron

Its like ppl didnt remember him dropping off in playoffs before 21..........but the last 2 years now has corrected perceptions back for Giannis..........I dont envision same happening for Jokic...........It feels floodgates will open and hes gonna leave the rest of his gen in the dust including Giannis and Luka...........the Embiid comps are dead forever

I don’t really think Giannis performances this first round was a big deal considering bro needed iv fluids lol, very much was an it is what it is performance for me, we’ll see how they are next year

Giannis impact numbers never hit those monster peak seasons some of the guys named. His box scores were insane, but like his floor impact were more like a good all time great’s season, and not like a truly peak one. Jokic’s impact and box scores are looking a good as anyone the last 25-30 years peak wise.

It’s pretty insane.

… No? Unless you are literally just judging this by raw on/off, Giannis’s 2020 is pretty securely advantaged in “impact” over Jokic’s 2023, and his 2019/20 stretch has the edge over Jokic’s 2022/23 stretch too. And if you are talking postseason, well, neither is a particular “impact” standout, but Giannis clears Jokic on that front as well.

That may not mean Giannis by rule has the better peak, but in terms of what the impact numbers say, that is a demonstrably false claim by anything making an effort to adjust for lineups.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Also, what's your thought about Jokic defense this game? To me it was by far his best defensive game in the finals so far, he was legitimately good and caused a lot of problems for Miami inside.

Jokic is a legitimately good post defender against 99% of the league, and he protected the rim well today

[rk2023]

It def happened with Giannis...........He had 2 big chokes as the favorite in 2019 and 2020.......then alot seemed to forget overnight after the 2021 title where it was one of the most injury impacted runs in recent history. Ppl were asking if Giannis is top 20 alltime. Is he the best European player ever etc etc........comparing his peak to likes of Hakeem and Timmy which he had no business in those convos. Comparing Giannis accolades at a similar age to Bron and saying hes on pace to reach Bron

Its like ppl didnt remember him dropping off in playoffs before 21..........but the last 2 years now has corrected perceptions back for Giannis..........I dont envision same happening for Jokic...........It feels floodgates will open and hes gonna leave the rest of his gen in the dust including Giannis and Luka...........the Embiid comps are dead forever

I don’t really think Giannis performances this first round was a big deal considering bro needed iv fluids lol, very much was an it is what it is performance for me, we’ll see how they are next year

Giannis impact numbers never hit those monster peak seasons some of the guys named. His box scores were insane, but like his floor impact were more like a good all time great’s season, and not like a truly peak one. Jokic’s impact and box scores are looking a good as anyone the last 25-30 years peak wise.

It’s pretty insane.

Of-course the playoff translation has some question-marks with a film and statistical analysis, but in 2019 and 2020 Giannis (in the RS) had the 1st and 3rd best scores in BBI's LEBRON data-base (dates back to 2010 through now). I am unsure the specific 3-year iterations because the site is currently updating PS numbers, but two different Giannis time-frames rank 6th and 10th in the 'since 2014' Playoff data-base 0 - with duplicates included for each given player.

Last year in Augmented +/- and its 'per game' variant (both from Thinking Basketball), Giannis comes out on top for the 2022 playoffs - over Jokic/Curry/Tatum/Butler.

Pragmatically, the Bucks have been a +8.2 / 100 team in the minutes with Giannis on-floor in the 2019-22 playoffs per PBPstats. In minutes he didn't play, the Bucks were -.7 all-in-all and -2.8 in the non Giannis minutes for games he was active in.

Current Jokic *may* be having a better peak than any Giannis (As an advocate/fan of both - I have each of their peaks as top 15 all time, fringe T-10 and both could be argued as such). I wouldn't take either over Tim / Hakeem / Bron because I regard all three as top 6 peaks all time. I agree with the premise that Giannis' apex is 'more like a good all time great's season', but I don't see how Jokic diverges from that same descriptor too much.

[Heej]

Jokic's defense is what it is. It's not flashy and looks worse than it actually is because there's gonna be a few possessions where guys punch it on him or blow by him. But in totality his motor, positioning, hands, and rebounding are gonna wear teams out more than they can wear him out. He's basically at big man 2018 Curry level for me. Good luck tryna outscore this guy if your only plan is to try and go at him on defense. His motor is better than yours and the rumors of his defensive demise are greatly exaggerated.

It's not easy scoring on him for a whole game. You'll break containment and get easy buckets here or there vs him because he's not an elite defensive player but he's a lower case g great defensive player imo. As far as being able to fit in a championship level defense with other solid defenders.

But man, is this not like at bare minimum a top 10 peak we're witnessing right now? Murray's definitely taking pressure off him but mannnn this is crazy what we're seeing. Is this a sub mt Rushmore peak??

[Colbinii]

Jokic's defense is what it is. It's not flashy and looks worse than it actually is because there's gonna be a few possessions where guys punch it on him or blow by him. But in totality his motor, positioning, hands, and rebounding are gonna wear teams out more than they can wear him out. He's basically at big man 2018 Curry level for me. Good luck tryna outscore this guy if your only plan is to try and go at him on defense. His motor is better than yours and the rumors of his defensive demise are greatly exaggerated.

It's not easy scoring on him for a whole game. You'll break containment and get easy buckets here or there vs him because he's not an elite defensive player but he's a lower case g great defensive player imo. As far as being able to fit in a championship level defense with other solid defenders.

But man, is this not like at bare minimum a top 10 peak we're witnessing right now? Murray's definitely taking pressure off him but mannnn this is crazy what we're seeing. Is this a sub mt Rushmore peak??

I think we may just be looking at one of the GOAT peak when he is playing at this level. This isn't an "in the moment" statement either. I never had Giannis, Kawhi, Curry in that tier.

Here are his statistics in the post-season:

30.5/13.4/10.1 with 3.5 turnovers, 1.0 steals, 0.9 blocks, 54.6/47.0/80.0 splits.
.311 WS/48, 13.4 BPM [9.7 OBPM]

[70sFan]

Also, what's your thought about Jokic defense this game? To me it was by far his best defensive game in the finals so far, he was legitimately good and caused a lot of problems for Miami inside.

Jokic is a legitimately good post defender against 99% of the league, and he protected the rim well today

Yeah, I think he struggled a bit in the previous two games inside but that was a very strong effort from him today.b

[Peregrine01]

I think a lot of people on this forum really underestimated how important guard defense is. Because guys like Monte and Will Barton died on screens over and over again, Jokic had to show higher on pick and rolls and against the Steph/Draymond pick and roll (the underpinning of the Warriors dynasty) that's just death. Now Jokic has guys like KCP, Brown, Braun and even MPJ fighting over screens and bothering the pick and roll ballhandler and now he isn't pulled away from the paint and suddenly his defense looks a lot better.

I thought the criticisms about Jokic's defense hamstringing his team's championship hopes was always very shortsighted. You need solid defenders around you to have a great defense, particularly in today's NBA.

[frica]

Jokic's defense is what it is. It's not flashy and looks worse than it actually is because there's gonna be a few possessions where guys punch it on him or blow by him. But in totality his motor, positioning, hands, and rebounding are gonna wear teams out more than they can wear him out. He's basically at big man 2018 Curry level for me. Good luck tryna outscore this guy if your only plan is to try and go at him on defense. His motor is better than yours and the rumors of his defensive demise are greatly exaggerated.

It's not easy scoring on him for a whole game. You'll break containment and get easy buckets here or there vs him because he's not an elite defensive player but he's a lower case g great defensive player imo. As far as being able to fit in a championship level defense with other solid defenders.

But man, is this not like at bare minimum a top 10 peak we're witnessing right now? Murray's definitely taking pressure off him but mannnn this is crazy what we're seeing. Is this a sub mt Rushmore peak??

I think we may just be looking at one of the GOAT peak when he is playing at this level. This isn't an "in the moment" statement either. I never had Giannis, Kawhi, Curry in that tier.

Here are his statistics in the post-season:

30.5/13.4/10.1 with 3.5 turnovers, 1.0 steals, 0.9 blocks, 54.6/47.0/80.0 splits.
.311 WS/48, 13.4 BPM [9.7 OBPM]

And a crazy 31.4 GmSc in the finals so far.

[frica]

It really feels like every time Jokic is playing he's just 1 game away from beating the finals record of most points in a game.
61+ points? I can see it.

Crazy.

[OhayoKD]

I don’t really think Giannis performances this first round was a big deal considering bro needed iv fluids lol, very much was an it is what it is performance for me, we’ll see how they are next year

Giannis impact numbers never hit those monster peak seasons some of the guys named. His box scores were insane, but like his floor impact were more like a good all time great’s season, and not like a truly peak one. Jokic’s impact and box scores are looking a good as anyone the last 25-30 years peak wise.

It’s pretty insane.

Of-course the playoff translation has some question-marks with a film and statistical analysis, but in 2019 and 2020 Giannis (in the RS) had the 1st and 3rd best scores in BBI's LEBRON data-base (dates back to 2010 through now). I am unsure the specific 3-year iterations because the site is currently updating PS numbers, but two different Giannis time-frames rank 6th and 10th in the 'since 2014' Playoff data-base 0 - with duplicates included for each given player.

Last year in Augmented +/- and its 'per game' variant (both from Thinking Basketball), Giannis comes out on top for the 2022 playoffs - over Jokic/Curry/Tatum/Butler.

Pragmatically, the Bucks have been a +8.2 / 100 team in the minutes with Giannis on-floor in the 2019-22 playoffs per PBPstats. In minutes he didn't play, the Bucks were -.7 all-in-all and -2.8 in the non Giannis minutes for games he was active in.

Current Jokic *may* be having a better peak than any Giannis (As an advocate/fan of both - I have each of their peaks as top 15 all time, fringe T-10 and both could be argued as such). I wouldn't take either over Tim / Hakeem / Bron because I regard all three as top 6 peaks all time. I agree with the premise that Giannis' apex is 'more like a good all time great's season', but I don't see how Jokic diverges from that same descriptor too much.

Better question is what distinguishes the "top 6" peaks from Jokic. Using large rs samples of off, going 16-6, 16-5, or 16-4 is on par or advantaged with just about anyone besides the best years of Lebron, Russell, or Kareem, and Duncan and his regular season only loses to a handful of years(hint: not the ones people like to argue were more valuable).

He's quite possibly the best offensive player ever and unless you're lebron, that is suffecient to argue him against any non-big. For bigs, when you add the defense and offense, even with an era-relative lens, there's not much of a emperical value-case for anyone besides russell, kareem, and maaaybe 03 duncan(94 hakeem is viable if you're argument is playoff-only.

Also not sure what no-kg-ai or gsp are talking about here. 2019 Giannis looks like an all-time impactful postseason if you go by the numbers