Trade Thread Tread pt.2 2023-24 - (Off-season)

[big-shot-ROB]

Beal signed a 5 year supermax extension last summer. So trading for Beal leads to a lot of the same financial challenges as signing JB to a supermax this summer.

It'd be very difficult to have a roster deep with talent, if we have 2 guys on a supermax - and Tatum is getting his next summer.

We don't have those challenges if we trade JB for Siakam.

Siakam has a year left on his contract and then he needs to be super-maxed just like Brown, what are you talking about?

Siakam didn't make all-NBA team this season (JB did) which is why Siakam is not supermax eligible, while JB is.

Also, a player can only sign a supermax with the team that drafted him. So we can't sign Siakam to a supermax.

You still need to max Siakam. The max Siakam can sign with another team is effectively $8M less than Brown and a year less, but you're signing him from 30 to 34 years old. You're signing Brown 27-32. Siakam better fit with Tatum is pure conjection at this point.

[CelticFaninLBC]

Need to remember than Mazzulla got pantsed by a better, more experienced coach, in the ECF. Celtics are likely playing Denver now, if Ime didn't bang his way out of town.

Hopefully getting some experience assistants around Mazzulla helps next year.

[MaxwellSmart]

Brogdon and RWilliams for Ayton...keep PP...or do nothing I don't care at this point.

[pac213up]

Build around Jay’s! Banned members who are trying to offer brown for shitttty trades

Why should we build around the jays?

What do they do so good together that makes them inseperable?

They win a lot of games, are young and still getting better. Teams with a #1 under the age of 26 winning a title is the exception. This is the journey of most elite teams.

[zoyathedestroya]

Brown alongside a Doncic or Jokic would be a more efficient scorer. But he'd still have to buy into being more of an offball threat (get better at navigating screens, setting screens, C&S, cutting, reading defenses, etc.), embrace that role, and minimize the tunnel vision possessions. And against tougher defenses, use his threat as a secondary scorer to get his teammates open looks, get that ball movement going.

So basically, what we've been pining to him to do last couple of years. Trying to be another Tatum isn't his path imo. If he thinks he can be that and still wants to pursue that, I'm praying it's on another team.

Exactly.

Brown is a square peg. We have a square peg in Tatum

Let them both be square pegs, square pegs are great. But we cannot make both those pegs slightly more round in hopes that they work better together.

And team has needed brown to be more "round" for multiple seasons now and has shown ZERO improvement towardsit.

Ideally, your no. 2 is also a playmaker.

Lebron had Kyrie/Wade. Kawhi had Lowry/Tony. Curry had Draymond/KD. Giannis had Jrue/Middleton. Jokic has Murray. Jimmy has Bam, not to mention a more evolved offensive system.

While Smart is adequate as a secondary playmaker, he's not good enough to be a #2, defenses won't respect him as a scoring threat. Same with White and Brogdon but to lesser degrees as playmakers.

[big-shot-ROB]

Need to remember than Mazzulla got pantsed by a better, more experienced coach, in the ECF. Celtics are likely playing Denver now, if Ime didn't bang his way out of town.

Hopefully getting some experience assistants around Mazzulla helps next year.

We've had this **** offense two years in a row though. I remember being even more frustrated last year with our offensive game plan in the Finals (maybe that was a product of the stakes). I don't think getting Mazzula a few assistants is going to magically transform this team mentality.

I don't have a direct solution to the problem but when you look at DEN or GSW or even MIA motion offenses, the amount of movement, screens, cuts and actions they have compared to us is a joke.

And we've seen our two best players revert back to horrible ISO tendencies and be very limited playmaking creators. You can have a more static motion offense when you have a great lead initiator like LBJ or Morant or Doncic but it's not gonna be enough right now with 25 year old Tatum, maybe in 2-3 years.

We either need a proper orchestrator or a coach over-haul

[Celts17Pride]

Ideally, your no. 2 is also a playmaker.

Lebron had Kyrie/Wade. Kawhi had Lowry/Tony. Curry had Draymond/KD. Giannis had Jrue/Middleton. Jokic has Murray. Jimmy has Bam, not to mention a more evolved offensive system.

While Smart is adequate as a secondary playmaker, he's not good enough to be a #2, defenses won't respect him as a scoring threat. Same with White and Brogdon but to lesser degrees as playmakers.

This is a really good point, you know your stuff.

----

Has to be. Welcome back!

[Hal14]

Siakam has a year left on his contract and then he needs to be super-maxed just like Brown, what are you talking about?

Siakam didn't make all-NBA team this season (JB did) which is why Siakam is not supermax eligible, while JB is.

Also, a player can only sign a supermax with the team that drafted him. So we can't sign Siakam to a supermax.

You still need to max Siakam. The max Siakam can sign with another team is effectively $8M less than Brown and a year less, but you're signing him from 30 to 34 years old. You're signing Brown 27-32. Siakam better fit with Tatum is pure conjection at this point.

I'll gladly pay Siakam the max. It's still significantly less than the supermax JB is due to get. And Siakam would be better for this team than Brown is. You can disagree if you want, but I just posted an extremely long argument for why I feel this is the case.

And Siakam relies on athleticism much less than JB does.

JB relies more on athleticism, he has less size and has been more injury prone. Everything points to Siakam's game aging better than JB's. I think you sell high now with JB - he's probably just gonna keep getting hurt more and more. And again, out of the last 19 NBA champions, 0 of them have had 2 high usage (30% or higher), low assist (25% or under) guys. History tells us that Tatum/Brown will not win a ring together. So why not just split them up now?

We could actually have a team kind of similar to the 2019 Raptors, which won the title. They had Kawhi/Siakam. We could have Tatum/Siakam. And Siakam is better now than he was back then. Horford would be our Marc Gasol. Rob would be our Ibaka. Smart would be our Lowry. Brogdon/White could be our VanVleet. Hauser/Grant could be our Danny Green.

That raptors team was GOOD. They moved the ball, they played tough D. They played as a team, everyone knew their role. The pieces fit together well.

[big-shot-ROB]

Brown alongside a Doncic or Jokic would be a more efficient scorer. But he'd still have to buy into being more of an offball threat (get better at navigating screens, setting screens, C&S, cutting, reading defenses, etc.), embrace that role, and minimize the tunnel vision possessions. And against tougher defenses, use his threat as a secondary scorer to get his teammates open looks, get that ball movement going.

So basically, what we've been pining to him to do last couple of years. Trying to be another Tatum isn't his path imo. If he thinks he can be that and still wants to pursue that, I'm praying it's on another team.

Exactly.

Brown is a square peg. We have a square peg in Tatum

Let them both be square pegs, square pegs are great. But we cannot make both those pegs slightly more round in hopes that they work better together.

And team has needed brown to be more "round" for multiple seasons now and has shown ZERO improvement towardsit.

Ideally, your no. 2 is also a playmaker.

Lebron had Kyrie/Wade. Kawhi had Lowry/Tony. Curry had Draymond/KD. Giannis had Jrue/Middleton. Jokic has Murray. Jimmy has Bam, not to mention a more evolved offensive system.

While Smart is adequate as a secondary playmaker, he's not good enough to be a #2, defenses won't respect him as a scoring threat. Same with White and Brogdon but to lesser degrees as playmakers.

Kawhi is a horrible playmaker, same as Durant (and the reason he's never won a ring as the main guy despite being probably the greatest scorer of all time). Middleton is also not a creator, he'd struggle equally as Brown in his position.

You don't necessarily need your #2 to be a great playmaker, you either need a great motion offense (Raptors, Spurs, GSW) or an all-time great lead initiator (LBJ, Curry, Giannis, Jokic)

[big-shot-ROB]

Siakam didn't make all-NBA team this season (JB did) which is why Siakam is not supermax eligible, while JB is.

Also, a player can only sign a supermax with the team that drafted him. So we can't sign Siakam to a supermax.

You still need to max Siakam. The max Siakam can sign with another team is effectively $8M less than Brown and a year less, but you're signing him from 30 to 34 years old. You're signing Brown 27-32. Siakam better fit with Tatum is pure conjection at this point.

I'll gladly pay Siakam the max. It's still significantly less than the supermax JB is due to get. And Siakam would be better for this team than Brown is. You can disagree if you want, but I just posted an extremely long argument for why I feel this is the case.

And Siakam relies on athleticism much less than JB does.

Just lost me there, yeah.

[big-shot-ROB]

Spoiler:

Ideally, your no. 2 is also a playmaker.

Lebron had Kyrie/Wade. Kawhi had Lowry/Tony. Curry had Draymond/KD. Giannis had Jrue/Middleton. Jokic has Murray. Jimmy has Bam, not to mention a more evolved offensive system.

While Smart is adequate as a secondary playmaker, he's not good enough to be a #2, defenses won't respect him as a scoring threat. Same with White and Brogdon but to lesser degrees as playmakers.

This is a really good point, you know your stuff.

----

Are they not around anymore?

[Celts17Pride]

I kinda do. The Comedian or MagicBagley, this you?

Has to be. Welcome back!

Hello wise sir, I’m not familiar with those posters. But I come here from elsewhere with peace in mind, why be nasty.

I think the most likely path is Jaylen back, at least for now, but that supermax is scary man

Don't disagree on either point.

[djFan71]

but trading for Dame Lillard doesn't?

They become worth it at that point. Surely you can see that?

Just like when Durant, Harden and Irving were going to own the league for the next 5 years?

Durant going to the Suns, game over. Yeah, game over for the Phoenix Suns.

No I don't see that.

Grass is always greener.

Some players are worth the supermax, and I'd put Lillard in that group. And KD. Harden, Irving no. Tatum yes. Brown no.

[zoyathedestroya]

Exactly.

Brown is a square peg. We have a square peg in Tatum

Let them both be square pegs, square pegs are great. But we cannot make both those pegs slightly more round in hopes that they work better together.

And team has needed brown to be more "round" for multiple seasons now and has shown ZERO improvement towardsit.

Ideally, your no. 2 is also a playmaker.

Lebron had Kyrie/Wade. Kawhi had Lowry/Tony. Curry had Draymond/KD. Giannis had Jrue/Middleton. Jokic has Murray. Jimmy has Bam, not to mention a more evolved offensive system.

While Smart is adequate as a secondary playmaker, he's not good enough to be a #2, defenses won't respect him as a scoring threat. Same with White and Brogdon but to lesser degrees as playmakers.

Kawhi is a horrible playmaker, same as Durant (and the reason he's never won a ring as the main guy despite being probably the greatest scorer of all time). Middleton is also not a creator, he'd struggle equally as Brown in his position.

You don't necessarily need your #2 to be a great playmaker, you either need a great motion offense (Raptors, Spurs, GSW) or an all-time great lead initiator (LBJ, Curry, Giannis, Jokic)

The #2 doesn't have to be a great playmaker but someone better than JB in that role on the big stage. When defenses load up on Tatum, we need JB to step up not just as scorer but someone who can make the next right read. He's either super aggressive and reckless (rarely thinking pass) or too mechanical/methodical (when he's thinking pass) that opposing defenses are already two steps ahead of him.

Again, it's not all on him. Coaching plays a part. Tatum not doing much offball once he gives up the ball is an issue too. But we can all admit JB is much better as an offball threat than one with the ball.

Tatum likely never reaches Lebron or Doncic level of playmaking (Giannis is attainable; Jokic is a joke) so my hope is get a better #2 and/or have a more advanced offense that everyone buys into.

EDIT: Kawhi and KD don't need to be elite at playmaking since they're hyperefficient as scorers. Tatum needs to be this at some point.

[big-shot-ROB]

Spoiler:

Ideally, your no. 2 is also a playmaker.

Lebron had Kyrie/Wade. Kawhi had Lowry/Tony. Curry had Draymond/KD. Giannis had Jrue/Middleton. Jokic has Murray. Jimmy has Bam, not to mention a more evolved offensive system.

While Smart is adequate as a secondary playmaker, he's not good enough to be a #2, defenses won't respect him as a scoring threat. Same with White and Brogdon but to lesser degrees as playmakers.

Kawhi is a horrible playmaker, same as Durant (and the reason he's never won a ring as the main guy despite being probably the greatest scorer of all time). Middleton is also not a creator, he'd struggle equally as Brown in his position.

You don't necessarily need your #2 to be a great playmaker, you either need a great motion offense (Raptors, Spurs, GSW) or an all-time great lead initiator (LBJ, Curry, Giannis, Jokic)

The #2 doesn't have to be a great playmaker but someone better than JB in that role on the big stage. When defenses load up on Tatum, we need JB to step up not just as scorer but someone who can make the next right read. He's either super aggressive and reckless (rarely thinking pass) or too mechanical/methodical (when he's thinking pass) that opposing defenses are already two steps ahead of him.

Again, it's not all on him. Coaching plays a part. Tatum not doing much offball once he gives up the ball is an issue too. But we can all admit JB is much better as an offball threat than one with the ball.

Tatum likely never reaches Lebron or Doncic level of playmaking (Giannis is attainable; Jokic is a joke) so my hope is get a better #2 and/or have a more advanced offense that everyone buys into.

Don't know, Brown must not be that horrible if he's able to put up the numbers he does both in the RS as well as the POs. He had one bad ECF on a bad hand this year but really showed up last year in the Finals as well as this year during the Sixers series both times when Tatum was struggling.

That is my thing with Brown, he's a very resilient scorer. Might not always be efficient, might not always be pretty, but the dude can pick up the slack and complements the hole hot/cold Tatum dynamic quite good enough.

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

Kawhi is a horrible playmaker, same as Durant (and the reason he's never won a ring as the main guy despite being probably the greatest scorer of all time). Middleton is also not a creator, he'd struggle equally as Brown in his position.

You don't necessarily need your #2 to be a great playmaker, you either need a great motion offense (Raptors, Spurs, GSW) or an all-time great lead initiator (LBJ, Curry, Giannis, Jokic)

The #2 doesn't have to be a great playmaker but someone better than JB in that role on the big stage. When defenses load up on Tatum, we need JB to step up not just as scorer but someone who can make the next right read. He's either super aggressive and reckless (rarely thinking pass) or too mechanical/methodical (when he's thinking pass) that opposing defenses are already two steps ahead of him.

Again, it's not all on him. Coaching plays a part. Tatum not doing much offball once he gives up the ball is an issue too. But we can all admit JB is much better as an offball threat than one with the ball.

Tatum likely never reaches Lebron or Doncic level of playmaking (Giannis is attainable; Jokic is a joke) so my hope is get a better #2 and/or have a more advanced offense that everyone buys into.

Don't know, Brown must not be that horrible if he's able to put up the numbers he does both in the RS as well as the POs. He had one bad ECF on a bad hand this year but really showed up last year in the Finals as well as this year during the Sixers series both times when Tatum was struggling.

That is my thing with Brown, he's a very resilient scorer. Might not always be efficient, might not always be pretty, but the dude can pick up the slack and complements the hole hot/cold Tatum dynamic quite good enough.

I agree with the last bit. That's what keeps him as a top X player, imo. He keeps coming, for better or worse sometimes. I want him to play different/smarter/etc and I don't think he's worth a supermax, but he is indeed a resilient scorer. I like that term.

[big-shot-ROB]

Spoiler:

The #2 doesn't have to be a great playmaker but someone better than JB in that role on the big stage. When defenses load up on Tatum, we need JB to step up not just as scorer but someone who can make the next right read. He's either super aggressive and reckless (rarely thinking pass) or too mechanical/methodical (when he's thinking pass) that opposing defenses are already two steps ahead of him.

Again, it's not all on him. Coaching plays a part. Tatum not doing much offball once he gives up the ball is an issue too. But we can all admit JB is much better as an offball threat than one with the ball.

Tatum likely never reaches Lebron or Doncic level of playmaking (Giannis is attainable; Jokic is a joke) so my hope is get a better #2 and/or have a more advanced offense that everyone buys into.

Don't know, Brown must not be that horrible if he's able to put up the numbers he does both in the RS as well as the POs. He had one bad ECF on a bad hand this year but really showed up last year in the Finals as well as this year during the Sixers series both times when Tatum was struggling.

That is my thing with Brown, he's a very resilient scorer. Might not always be efficient, might not always be pretty, but the dude can pick up the slack and complements the hole hot/cold Tatum dynamic quite good enough.

I agree with the last bit. That's what keeps him as a top X player, imo. He keeps coming, for better or worse sometimes. I want him to play different/smarter/etc and I don't think he's worth a supermax, but he is indeed a resilient scorer. I like that term.

I think at this point if one thing is clear is that betting against Brown improving is a very bad decision. None of us dreamed he'd become his current version in his 2 first years. Then again we didn't think he'd become this during the 20-21 season.

He has his flaws and I don't think he's every going to a true #1 option but I feel the best path for this team to get a better #2 next to Tatum and keep the Celtics ring options high is to continue to trust Brown's improvements.

I know with every trade there's inherent risk so it's easy to say there's no trade that offers a higher probability of a ring to BOS, but I think the % difference is higher (between standing pat or looking for other options) given the previous data points we have about Brown being able to improve. It's a half shot in the dark vs a very assessed bet.

[94Beyond]

yup

[fallguy]

thread's getting weird you fake ballboys

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

Don't know, Brown must not be that horrible if he's able to put up the numbers he does both in the RS as well as the POs. He had one bad ECF on a bad hand this year but really showed up last year in the Finals as well as this year during the Sixers series both times when Tatum was struggling.

That is my thing with Brown, he's a very resilient scorer. Might not always be efficient, might not always be pretty, but the dude can pick up the slack and complements the hole hot/cold Tatum dynamic quite good enough.

I agree with the last bit. That's what keeps him as a top X player, imo. He keeps coming, for better or worse sometimes. I want him to play different/smarter/etc and I don't think he's worth a supermax, but he is indeed a resilient scorer. I like that term.

I think at this point if one thing is clear is that betting against Brown improving is a very bad decision. None of us dreamed he'd become his current version in his 2 first years. Then again we didn't think he'd become this during the 20-21 season.

He has his flaws and I don't think he's every going to a true #1 option but I feel the best path for this team to get a better #2 next to Tatum and keep the Celtics ring options high is to continue to trust Brown's improvements.

I know with every trade there's inherent risk so it's easy to say there's no trade that offers a higher probability of a ring to BOS, but I think the % difference is higher (between standing pat or looking for other options) given the previous data points we have about Brown being able to improve. It's a half shot in the dark vs a very assessed bet.

Yeah, there's definitely an argument / basically the default, of supermax, run it back and deal with financial difficulties when they arise. I think he improves, but probably doesn't transform. Gets a little better at going left, making a few more basic reads, etc.

It's just hard to ignore all the impact stats. We were just not that good with him on and Tatum off. And (I believe confirmed) better with Tatum on / Brown off than when both were on. It gets tougher to say you're going to spend 35% of your cap on that. Our frontcourt is aging/injured and we lack creation a bit on offense. There's no surefire fix, and obviously the team wasn't that far away, but reallocating some of that $ we spend on him to improve other areas is how I'd go. I'm not sure the drop off will be as severe as people think - in fact, I don't know that there will even be one. And depending on who you bring in, we could improve.