Highest reasonable ranking for Moses Malone?

ceiling raiser · Post #1 » by **ceiling raiser** » Thu Jun 8, 2023 8:24 pm

Have been watching this guy a bit recently.

Pros:

(1) Great +/- on the Sixers
(2) Very quick/mobile
(3) Great jumper, post moves
(4) Strong H2H vs top bigs
(5) Near-GOAT offensive rebounder

Cons:

(1) Not an elite rim protector
(2) Below-average passing
(3) Long career overstates prime

Does he have an argument for top 10 guys post-merger?

Cavsfansince84 · Post #2 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Thu Jun 8, 2023 8:30 pm

Maybe top 10 since merger though I'd lean towards no(harder if we are including KAJ/Dr.J). I think highest reasonable is around 17. I don't like the zero playoff wins past the age of 29 and I think he dropped off a bit too soon. Even someone like Robinson who had a short prime too bounced back pretty well after 97 and won two rings and could still be a defensive force.

eminence · Post #3 » by **eminence** » Thu Jun 8, 2023 10:22 pm

Hmm, haven’t thought about it.

There was a bit of an up and down nature to his Sixers +/- data. Maybe if you really bought the highs and like his non-Sixers years?

I still struggle to see a case over Magic/Bird/Hakeem/MJ/Shaq/KG/Duncan/Kobe/Dirk/LeBron at a minimum, without getting into more current guys.

I could see top 15, but top 10 feels a bit too much of a stretch.

KobesScarf · Post #4 » by **KobesScarf** » Fri Jun 9, 2023 1:45 am

For me about 7-9 all time below: Wilt MJ Lebron Russell Duncan Bird.

Shaq and Kareen highly debatable

No-more-rings · Post #5 » by **No-more-rings** » Fri Jun 9, 2023 3:42 am

I think he’s in the 18-20 range and even that is perhaps a bit generous. As far as across eras go, it’s hard to see him having a case for best in the league outside of any era but his own.

One_and_Done · Post #6 » by **One_and_Done** » Fri Jun 9, 2023 4:30 am

At this point he's tough to put in the top 20. Too many great players have emerged since he retired, and his game has aged poorly with the benefit of hindsight.

SHAQ32 · Post #7 » by **SHAQ32** » Fri Jun 9, 2023 5:06 am

I'm thinking inside the top 10. Is that too high in 2023?

ronnymac2 · Post #8 » by **ronnymac2** » Fri Jun 9, 2023 5:47 am

Post-merger career value, I think you could reasonably place Moses in the top 10. The only guys you really can't place him over are KAJ, Shaq, Dream, LBJ, MJ, TD, KG...maybe hard to place him over Bryant and Nowitzki.

I will say, the only post-merger players who would even have a chance of outplaying him head-to-head are Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan, and Jokic. And I have my doubts about all four of them.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #9 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri Jun 9, 2023 7:42 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:Post-merger career value, I think you could reasonably place Moses in the top 10. The only guys you really can't place him over are KAJ, Shaq, Dream, LBJ, MJ, TD, KG...maybe hard to place him over Bryant and Nowitzki.

I will say, the only post-merger players who would even have a chance of outplaying him head-to-head are Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan, and Jokic. And I have my doubts about all four of them.

No mention of Magic and Bird here? I think its hard to place him over Steph as well. His career is highly forgettable once he left Philly. That's the issue and them bouncing so early in 84 as well which isn't all on Moses but to go from maybe most dominant team of all time(at that point) to 1st rd exit is a huge drop off. Also, idk about his defense from about 86 on either. If you saw a decent amount of him in those years I'd be interested to hear what your impressions are.

kcktiny · Post #10 » by **kcktiny** » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:05 am

His career is highly forgettable once he left Philly.

His 4 seasons after Philadelphia Malone was the ages of 32-35 (1986-87 to 1989-90). He averaged 21 pts/g and 11 reb/g playing 34 min/g and playing 78-79 games/season. He played 10793 minutes those 4 years.

Care to guess in NBA history how many players played 4 seasons from the ages of 32-35 and averaged 20+ pts/g and 10+ reb/g? Just 3 - Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, and Malone. And Malone did it over 314 games, Baylor only 277, and Ewing just 259.

Also, idk about his defense from about 86 on either.

Again you're taking about a player the ages of 32-35. What kind of defense would you expect? Malone and Shaq both came into the league at the age of 20. Through the age of 31 Malone had played 2800+ more minutes in the regular season - like another full season. Yet from the ages of 32-35 Malone played 3600 more regular season minutes than did Shaq, more than the minutes of a full season, averaging 21 and 11. His defense was about average for a C, despite his advanced age.

If you saw a decent amount of him in those years I'd be interested to hear what your impressions are.

Those 4 seasons he had more FTAs and more offensive rebounds than any other C in the league, scored the 3rd most points (only Olajuwon and Ewing scored more), played the 4th most minutes. On offense he was a bull in a china shop like he always was, literally no one could stop him. And those 4 seasons he committed fouls at the lowest rate among all Cs (just 2.3 PF/40min), yet was still a decent defender, average.

If you didn't see him play in the mid-to-late 1970s I don't think you can truly appreciate how incredibly good Moses Malone was. From 1978-79 to 1981-82 he played outrageous minutes - 41 min/g while missing less than 1 game a season (that's almost 3300 minutes/season). He averaged 27 pts/g and 15 reb/g, and over the 4 seasons averaged over 500 offensive rebounds/season. Video game type stats.

Before he got to the 76ers there was a lot of talk as to who the best C in the league was - Jabbar or Malone, Malone or Jabbar. There was no one else in the conversation.

And in 1980-81 he carried a sub .500 team to the Finals and had Boston 2 games to 2 before losing.

Heej · Post #11 » by **Heej** » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:22 am

It's weird to me that people think his archetype has aged out of the league when the infinite motor punishing offensive rebounding type has been immutable as far as effectiveness throughout eras and levels of competition. If you switch on any pnr you're probably giving up offensive rebounds on half those possessions. Can't teach motor, you either got it or you don't.

scrabbarista · Post #12 » by **scrabbarista** » Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:59 am

High: 13th, or 11th post-merger. You know what, I'm getting softer in my old age, let's go with 9th. 7th since the merger.

My rank: 15th

Low: 26th

GrindCityHustle · Post #13 » by **GrindCityHustle** » Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:50 am

The 38th best player of all time.

Ranking will never change.

TheLand13 · Post #14 » by **TheLand13** » Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:28 am

He’s in the 10-15 range for me and I can’t see myself putting him any higher than that.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #15 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:59 am

kcktiny wrote:
His career is highly forgettable once he left Philly.

His 4 seasons after Philadelphia Malone was the ages of 32-35 (1986-87 to 1989-90). He averaged 21 pts/g and 11 reb/g playing 34 min/g and playing 78-79 games/season. He played 10793 minutes those 4 years.

Care to guess in NBA history how many players played 4 seasons from the ages of 32-35 and averaged 20+ pts/g and 10+ reb/g? Just 3 - Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, and Malone. And Malone did it over 314 games, Baylor only 277, and Ewing just 259.

Also, idk about his defense from about 86 on either.

Again you're taking about a player the ages of 32-35. What kind of defense would you expect? Malone and Shaq both came into the league at the age of 20. Through the age of 31 Malone had played 2800+ more minutes in the regular season - like another full season. Yet from the ages of 32-35 Malone played 3600 more regular season minutes than did Shaq, more than the minutes of a full season, averaging 21 and 11. His defense was about average for a C, despite his advanced age.

If you saw a decent amount of him in those years I'd be interested to hear what your impressions are.

Those 4 seasons he had more FTAs and more offensive rebounds than any other C in the league, scored the 3rd most points (only Olajuwon and Ewing scored more), played the 4th most minutes. On offense he was a bull in a china shop like he always was, literally no one could stop him. And those 4 seasons he committed fouls at the lowest rate among all Cs (just 2.3 PF/40min), yet was still a decent defender, average.

If you didn't see him play in the mid-to-late 1970s I don't think you can truly appreciate how incredibly good Moses Malone was. From 1978-79 to 1981-82 he played outrageous minutes - 41 min/g while missing less than 1 game a season (that's almost 3300 minutes/season). He averaged 27 pts/g and 15 reb/g, and over the 4 seasons averaged over 500 offensive rebounds/season. Video game type stats.

Before he got to the 76ers there was a lot of talk as to who the best C in the league was - Jabbar or Malone, Malone or Jabbar. There was no one else in the conversation.

And in 1980-81 he carried a sub .500 team to the Finals and had Boston 2 games to 2 before losing.

More age 31 on. Which isn't that old, especially when compared to guys in the top 20 or even contemporaries such as Kareem, Dr. J, etc. Also, the minutes he played weren't all that outrageous for that time either. Heavy minutes but really only from 79-82 and still not close to what Kareem played from 70-76. I'm not someone who is especially low on Moses or older players. If anything, even by the standards of this board I am high on them I would say. I wasn't trying to say he had a short prime either. It's just more in comparison to other guys who I'd have as top 20 all time his years from 30 on are kind of weak imo along with no real stand out playoff series after 83.