08 KG vs 83 Malone

[Cavsfansince84]

I thought this might be a good comparison to do. Both guys have been getting a lot of talk on here lately and I think they get a wide variety of opinions on how good they were peak/prime wise. Now I wouldn't necessarily say this is a peak year for either but its very similar in that they both moved to what could be considered super teams that were very dominant(Celtics less so in the postseason) and won titles. So vote/discuss who was better in the given season.

[70sFan]

I think I'd take Moses here, mostly due to his outstanding postseason run against top tier competition. I know, Garnett was a better defender, but Malone offensive impact went way beyond boxscore numbers at his peak.

It's a reasonable comparison and I understand people who prefer KG though.

[One_and_Done]

I don't really think it's a reasonale comparison because KG was the much better player. KG is overrated by alot of people, but this comp he wins easily.

[Colbinii]

I have 2008 KG up there with the best Celtics peaks of all-time [notably Russell and Bird]. I dont have Moses on that level.

[Matt15]

Moses by a small margin.

[rk2023]

Garnett by a small margin. Both had similar on/off profiles through my recollection (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). Of-course, this isn’t apples-to-oranges, but Boston from 2007 -> 2008 went from mediocre to great while Philly from 1982 -> 1983 went from good to (all-time) great. I think Garnett added more in aggregate through the defensive impact provided, which checks out in +/- variants as well as a smaller WOWY sample after Garnett’s knee injury.

[rk2023]

I think I'd take Moses here, mostly due to his outstanding postseason run against top tier competition. I know, Garnett was a better defender, but Malone offensive impact went way beyond boxscore numbers at his peak.

It's a reasonable comparison and I understand people who prefer KG though.

Would you mind elaborating upon what you mean? My ‘hypothesis’ is that the unparalleled offensive rebounding volume and success played a massive role in “ceiling raising” Philadelphia’s offense throughout the campaign by serving as high-efficiency offense (as is the case with 2nd chance points, generally). Was wondering if you have any data in support of what you’re getting at, as I enjoy reading through your tracking projects / analyses on the board.

[Cavsfansince84]

Garnett by a small margin. Both had similar on/off profiles through my recollection (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). Of-course, this isn’t apples-to-oranges, but Boston from 2007 -> 2008 went from mediocre to great while Philly from 1982 -> 1983 went from good to (all-time) great. I think Garnett added more in aggregate through the defensive impact provided, which checks out in +/- variants as well as a smaller WOWY sample after Garnett’s knee injury.

Fair to bring that up though you can't overlook the additions of Allen and Posey as well. Plus Rondo emerging as a solid pg.

[eminence]

I think I'd take Moses here, mostly due to his outstanding postseason run against top tier competition. I know, Garnett was a better defender, but Malone offensive impact went way beyond boxscore numbers at his peak.

It's a reasonable comparison and I understand people who prefer KG though.

Would you mind elaborating upon what you mean? My ‘hypothesis’ is that the unparalleled offensive rebounding volume and success played a massive role in “ceiling raising” Philadelphia’s offense throughout the campaign by serving as high-efficiency offense (as is the case with 2nd chance points, generally). Was wondering if you have any data in support of what you’re getting at, as I enjoy reading through your tracking projects / analyses on the board.

I would also like to see a bit more on that. His box-score probably had him as a top ~5 guy in the league on offense at his peak (3rd in OWS, 8th in OBPM in '83).

Way beyond to me implies he should be a strong contender for best offensive player in the league if not the clear best, which strikes me as a bit high.

[Red Beast]

How is this not Malone? He was the dominant on an all-time great team that destroyed a great Milwaukee team and an all-time great Lakers team. He outplayed a top 5 (probably top 3) near peak player in Kareem. He averaged 25.8 points and 18 rebounds when it counted most. In a four-game series he shot 47 free throws and had 27 offensive rebounds. These figures, in my opinion, still undersell his impact. If you watch that series, you will see that Malone's relentless approach just wore down the opposition. He truly was a force of nature that year.

In comparison, a Celtic team that should have been more dominant, given their talent level, went 4-3, 4-3, 4-2 and 4-2. This was against mediocre to decent opposition. While KG was one of the best players, no one could describe him as a dominant force. In the finals, he averaged 18.2 points and 13 rebounds. He was the fourth highest scorer in the series. In a seven-game series, he shot 25 free throws.

While KG had a great and successful season that year playing good offense and brilliant defense with team success, I don't think his season, or impact can be compared to Malone. As stated earlier, Malone was a force of nature that year. While not renowned for his defense normally, he was great this year, making the all-defense team. Malone fairly comfortably, for me.

[One_and_Done]

All else aside, let's be real here. Kareem was not at his peak or even close to it in 1983.

[Red Beast]

All else aside, let's be real here. Kareem was not at his peak or even close to it in 1983.

Not at his peak, no. But, not way off. He was MVP three years before. He was All-NBA and All-Defense 2 years before. He was 2nd team All-NBA behind Malone that year. He lead all scorers in the playoffs that year. He was All-NBA and 2nd team All-Defense the year after. He was 2nd Team All-NBA two years later in 84-85 and finals MVP against the Celtics. The year after that he was All-NBA again in 85-86. He was an All-Star all the way to 89. So, he was still one of the best players in the league. He was also better than any frontline player that KG faced in 08 by a considerable margin. And, again, Moses completely outplayed him.

[iggymcfrack]

I don’t see how this is close. Both guys had comparable numbers, Moses was a very meh defender for a superstar big, and KG in 2008 had maybe the best defensive season of the modern era. What’s the last season where someone played better D? You honestly might have to go back to Russell. The only argument for Malone is team performance, but I would argue the Celtics actually played better overall. I feel like taking Moses here is just clearly wrong.

[Red Beast]

I don’t see how this is close. Both guys had comparable numbers, Moses was a very meh defender for a superstar big, and KG in 2008 had maybe the best defensive season of the modern era. What’s the last season where someone played better D? You honestly might have to go back to Russell. The only argument for Malone is team performance, but I would argue the Celtics actually played better overall. I feel like taking Moses here is just clearly wrong.

How do you figure they had comparable numbers? Offensively and rebounding is clearly Malone. Malone also was All-Defensive Centre that year.
Also, best defensive season of the modern era? How do you figure that? KG is an all time great defender, but by far the biggest contributor was Tom Thibedeau's revolutionary defense. Don't confuse correlation with causation. There have been many better defensive players and seasons than KG. The only argument is team performance? In 82/83 Moses won MVP with 69 of 75 first place votes, Finals MVP and All-Defense first team. In 07/08 KG was 3rd in the MVP voting behind Kobe and Chris Paul. Paul Pierce won Finals MVP. Moses was completely dominant this season. This is not close.

[iggymcfrack]

I don’t see how this is close. Both guys had comparable numbers, Moses was a very meh defender for a superstar big, and KG in 2008 had maybe the best defensive season of the modern era. What’s the last season where someone played better D? You honestly might have to go back to Russell. The only argument for Malone is team performance, but I would argue the Celtics actually played better overall. I feel like taking Moses here is just clearly wrong.

How do you figure they had comparable numbers? Offensively and rebounding is clearly Malone. Malone also was All-Defensive Centre that year.
Also, best defensive season of the modern era? How do you figure that? KG is an all time great defender, but by far the biggest contributor was Tom Thibedeau's revolutionary defense. Don't confuse correlation with causation. There have been many better defensive players and seasons than KG. The only argument is team performance? In 82/83 Moses won MVP with 69 of 75 first place votes, Finals MVP and All-Defense first team. In 07/08 KG was 3rd in the MVP voting behind Kobe and Chris Paul. Paul Pierce won Finals MVP. Moses was completely dominant this season. This is not close.

Regular season
Malone: 25.1 PER, .234 WS/48, 3.7 BPM
Garnett: 25.3 PER, .268 WS/48, 8.2 BPM

Postseason
Malone: 25.7 PER, .260 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
Garnett: 23.0 PER, .199 WS/48, 6.6 BPM

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Kobe’s MVP in 2008 was a career achievement/pity MVP. KG was clearly the best player that season and it wasn’t close. When Embiid won MVP this year, I was actually comparing it to Kobe’s MVP since that was the last MVP won purely out of pity for somebody just not having won it before despite being close multiple times.

In the regular season, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +16.4 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +11.8. In the postseason, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +10.3 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +19.8. He was the straw that stirred the drink. Thibodeau’s defense was all built around KG’s rim protection. It didn’t work without him.

[70sFan]

Would you mind elaborating upon what you mean? My ‘hypothesis’ is that the unparalleled offensive rebounding volume and success played a massive role in “ceiling raising” Philadelphia’s offense throughout the campaign by serving as high-efficiency offense (as is the case with 2nd chance points, generally). Was wondering if you have any data in support of what you’re getting at, as I enjoy reading through your tracking projects / analyses on the board.

I won't give you anything specific for now, but it's just the way Moses generated easy opportunities without taking anything away from his teammates. By my tracking data, 1979-83 Moses scored around 25% of his points out of offensive rebounds alone - that's quite a lot for a high volume scorer (27.2 ppg in tracking sample). For comparison - from my tracking numbers, Shaq scored around 19-20% of his points from putbacks. 1971-79 Kareem scored around 16-17% of his points from putbacks.

That's not the end though, Moses absorbed an absurd amount of double and triple teams, even in Philly. He wasn't a great passer, but even takinig it into account it took a lot of stress on defense. I also like the way he moved without the ball, he was far less stationary than someone like Wilt or Hakeem down low.

All of that is captured by his Net ORtg in Philly:

1983: +8.2
1984: +10.4
1985: +18.8
1986: +8.9

Note - this doesn't include defensive end, Moses gave his team (elite team nonetheless) an absurd amount of value from what he did on basketball court.

I would also like to see a bit more on that. His box-score probably had him as a top ~5 guy in the league on offense at his peak (3rd in OWS, 8th in OBPM in '83).

Way beyond to me implies he should be a strong contender for best offensive player in the league if not the clear best, which strikes me as a bit high.

You don't think that Moses was arguably the best offensive player in the league in 1981-83 period?

[70sFan]

I don’t see how this is close. Both guys had comparable numbers, Moses was a very meh defender for a superstar big, and KG in 2008 had maybe the best defensive season of the modern era. What’s the last season where someone played better D? You honestly might have to go back to Russell. The only argument for Malone is team performance, but I would argue the Celtics actually played better overall. I feel like taking Moses here is just clearly wrong.

How do you figure they had comparable numbers? Offensively and rebounding is clearly Malone. Malone also was All-Defensive Centre that year.
Also, best defensive season of the modern era? How do you figure that? KG is an all time great defender, but by far the biggest contributor was Tom Thibedeau's revolutionary defense. Don't confuse correlation with causation. There have been many better defensive players and seasons than KG. The only argument is team performance? In 82/83 Moses won MVP with 69 of 75 first place votes, Finals MVP and All-Defense first team. In 07/08 KG was 3rd in the MVP voting behind Kobe and Chris Paul. Paul Pierce won Finals MVP. Moses was completely dominant this season. This is not close.

Regular season
Malone: 25.1 PER, .234 WS/48, 3.7 BPM
Garnett: 25.3 PER, .268 WS/48, 8.2 BPM

Postseason
Malone: 25.7 PER, .260 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
Garnett: 23.0 PER, .199 WS/48, 6.6 BPM

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Kobe’s MVP in 2008 was a career achievement/pity MVP. KG was clearly the best player that season and it wasn’t close. When Embiid won MVP this year, I was actually comparing it to Kobe’s MVP since that was the last MVP won purely out of pity for somebody just not having won it before despite being close multiple times.

In the regular season, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +16.4 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +11.8. In the postseason, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +10.3 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +19.8. He was the straw that stirred the drink. Thibodeau’s defense was all built around KG’s rim protection. It didn’t work without him.

Here is Moses on/off for comparison:

1983:

Total: +11.5 On, -4.1 Off, 15.6 Net
ORtg: 110.5 On, 102.3 Off, 8.2 Net
DRtg: 98.9 On, 106.4 Off, -7.4 Net

I don't know, it doesn't look like Garnett dominates him in on/off data.

[Red Beast]

Regular season
Malone: 25.1 PER, .234 WS/48, 3.7 BPM
Garnett: 25.3 PER, .268 WS/48, 8.2 BPM

Postseason
Malone: 25.7 PER, .260 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
Garnett: 23.0 PER, .199 WS/48, 6.6 BPM

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Kobe’s MVP in 2008 was a career achievement/pity MVP. KG was clearly the best player that season and it wasn’t close. When Embiid won MVP this year, I was actually comparing it to Kobe’s MVP since that was the last MVP won purely out of pity for somebody just not having won it before despite being close multiple times.

In the regular season, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +16.4 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +11.8. In the postseason, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +10.3 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +19.8. He was the straw that stirred the drink. Thibodeau’s defense was all built around KG’s rim protection. It didn’t work without him.

Thibodeau's defense was not built around KG that's nonsense. Of course, KG did fit into the defense well. Rim protection has never been KG's greatest strength. He's good at it but not close to the best. Perkins was the primary rim protector, KG's strength was his mobility and motor. Thibodeau had number one defenses in Chicago and NY without KG afterwards. Again, not taking away KG he was integral to the effectiveness of the defense but it was a completely unique defense at the time that the league didn't have an answer for.
If it was a Kobe pity award, why did Chris Paul get more votes? Did Paul Pierce get the Finals MVP out of pity? I'm sorry but your logic just doesn't hold water. KG is a great player but he was not close to as dominant as Malone was that year. If you haven't watched him play, I suggest you do so.

[iggymcfrack]

How do you figure they had comparable numbers? Offensively and rebounding is clearly Malone. Malone also was All-Defensive Centre that year.
Also, best defensive season of the modern era? How do you figure that? KG is an all time great defender, but by far the biggest contributor was Tom Thibedeau's revolutionary defense. Don't confuse correlation with causation. There have been many better defensive players and seasons than KG. The only argument is team performance? In 82/83 Moses won MVP with 69 of 75 first place votes, Finals MVP and All-Defense first team. In 07/08 KG was 3rd in the MVP voting behind Kobe and Chris Paul. Paul Pierce won Finals MVP. Moses was completely dominant this season. This is not close.

Regular season
Malone: 25.1 PER, .234 WS/48, 3.7 BPM
Garnett: 25.3 PER, .268 WS/48, 8.2 BPM

Postseason
Malone: 25.7 PER, .260 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
Garnett: 23.0 PER, .199 WS/48, 6.6 BPM

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Kobe’s MVP in 2008 was a career achievement/pity MVP. KG was clearly the best player that season and it wasn’t close. When Embiid won MVP this year, I was actually comparing it to Kobe’s MVP since that was the last MVP won purely out of pity for somebody just not having won it before despite being close multiple times.

In the regular season, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +16.4 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +11.8. In the postseason, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +10.3 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +19.8. He was the straw that stirred the drink. Thibodeau’s defense was all built around KG’s rim protection. It didn’t work without him.

Here is Moses on/off for comparison:

1983:

Total: +11.5 On, -4.1 Off, 15.6 Net
ORtg: 110.5 On, 102.3 Off, 8.2 Net
DRtg: 98.9 On, 106.4 Off, -7.4 Net

I don't know, it doesn't look like Garnett dominates him in on/off data.

Do you have playoff numbers?

[70sFan]

Regular season
Malone: 25.1 PER, .234 WS/48, 3.7 BPM
Garnett: 25.3 PER, .268 WS/48, 8.2 BPM

Postseason
Malone: 25.7 PER, .260 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
Garnett: 23.0 PER, .199 WS/48, 6.6 BPM

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Kobe’s MVP in 2008 was a career achievement/pity MVP. KG was clearly the best player that season and it wasn’t close. When Embiid won MVP this year, I was actually comparing it to Kobe’s MVP since that was the last MVP won purely out of pity for somebody just not having won it before despite being close multiple times.

In the regular season, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +16.4 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +11.8. In the postseason, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +10.3 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +19.8. He was the straw that stirred the drink. Thibodeau’s defense was all built around KG’s rim protection. It didn’t work without him.

Here is Moses on/off for comparison:

1983:

Total: +11.5 On, -4.1 Off, 15.6 Net
ORtg: 110.5 On, 102.3 Off, 8.2 Net
DRtg: 98.9 On, 106.4 Off, -7.4 Net

I don't know, it doesn't look like Garnett dominates him in on/off data.

Do you have playoff numbers?

I don't think we have playoff numbers, but maybe I am wrong.