Larry Bird/Wilt or Magic/Kareem

[70sFan]

That's why all those track and field records from the 60s are still standing, because sports are at their apex before they become hyper professional global money pots.

You are comparing two players from the same era, pointless argument.

I doubt most players in Wilt's day would even make today's league tbh.

The same thing can be said (correctly or not) about Kareem's day and even Magic/Bird era.

What year do you have as Wilt's peak btw?

I think his three best seasons are 1964, 1967 and 1968. His best period is 1964-68 overall.

[70sFan]

Firstly, volume stats are not a great way to compare 2 players.

Indeed, it would be nice to use context, like not comparing one player at the peak of his powers to past prime, 34 years old player coming off a season ending injury.

It's an especially problematic method when you take a guy who has a reputation as a stat padder who doesn't care about winning, then you compare him to a guy over an 11 game stretch. Then you pick an 11 game stretch where Kareem's team is 8/11 against Wilt.

You have no idea if Wilt cared or not about winning, you're just repeating lazy and false narrative.

We can look at all Kareem vs Wilt matchups, Lakers and Bucks finished with 14-14 h2h record. What a loser Wilt was...

Nor are the stats entirely equal.

Kareem: 26ppg, 15.6rpg & 2.5apg
Wilt: 22.8ppg, 17.6 rpg & 2.7apg

So even focusing in on volume stats, Wilt's specialty, doesn't help him a whole lot, and of course I think that whole approach of analysis is wrong.

If you compare these numbers to their RS averages, I'm afraid it's Kareem who looks less impressive, especially considering that Wilt was way older and past his prime.

Note - I have Kareem higher on my all-time list, it's just your arguments that are unreasonable.

In the 2 years this sample takes place Kareem took over a lottery team and led them to 56 and 66 win seasons & a title. What was Wilt doing over this stretch? Yeh, Wilt was hurt in 70, but the team was 7-5 in gamed he played, so his absence didn't seem to affect them much.

Yes, Kareem was much better than old, injured Wilt. Nobody said anything about it though.

Kareem didn't even have Old man Oscar until 71, while Wilt had Jerry West and other good players besides.

Kareem also had good players around him - Dandridge, McGlockin, Boozer and Allen were all very good players.

Also, old man Oscar was younger than Wilt in 1971, while West was the same age as Oscar. Double standards again...

[1993Playoffs]

Is it reasonable to say that both Wilt and Bird slightly ( or more than slightly) regressed in the playoffs on average ?

I think so, though with limited information we have it is reasonable to assume that Wilt's defense improved in the playoffs, so maybe he didn't really regress after all?

Well in terms of the question I think I’d choose Kareem/Magic due to those reasons

[One_and_Done]

Well, let's explore that. Unfortunately, per 100 possessions don't exist for Wilt in 1968 (the closest year to Kareem's rookie year in 1970), so we'll use per 36 and note the pace greatly favoured Wilt (so his stats would drop in a per 100 possession comparison). The pace difference was 124.3 for Wilt's team in 1968, as against 115.8 for the Bucks in 1970. So whatever Wilt's stats are, they'll drop a healthy amount.

Kareem was a rookie that year, and had a team that had stunk before he got there. It was not the excellent support cast Wilt had. Yet the Bucks won 56, and lost in the 2nd round to the eventual champs. Wilt's Philly team won 62 and lost to the eventual champion Celtics.

Are Wilt's per 36 volume numbers even better? I don't think so.

Wilt posted 18.7, 18.3 and 6.6 per per on 557 TS% in the regular season
In the playoffs that dropped to 17.6, 18.3, 4.8 on 511TS%.

How about Kareem?

He had 24.1, 12.1, 3.4 in the regular season on 552TS%
When things got serious in the playoffs he increased his stats up to 29.1, 13.9, 3.4 on 608TS%.

So again, even looking purely at the raw volume counting stats that skew towards Wilt and his notorious padding, it looks like it distinctly favours Kareem once you factor pace in. Then Kareem's stats went through the roof the next 2 years, and he performed even better. Kareem's ppg per 100 possessions in his 2nd year were over 5 points higher than his rookie numbers in the regular season, and the same in the playoffs where he was a ludicrous 37.8 points per 100 possession those playoffs.

You complain about me comparing old man Wilt to Kareem, but I'm not the one who made that comparison. I just responded to it.

[70sFan]

Well, let's explore that. Unfortunately, per 100 possessions don't exist for Wilt in 1968 (the closest year to Kareem's rookie year in 1970), so we'll use per 36 and note the pace greatly favoured Wilt (so his stats would drop in a per 100 possession comparison). The pace difference was 124.3 for Wilt's team in 1968, as against 115.8 for the Bucks in 1970. So whatever Wilt's stats are, they'll drop a healthy amount.

Kareem was a rookie that year, and had a team that had stunk before he got there. It was not the excellent support cast Wilt had. Yet the Bucks won 56, and lost in the 2nd round to the eventual champs. Wilt's Philly team won 62 and lost to the eventual champion Celtics.

Are Wilt's per 36 volume numbers even better? I don't think so.

Wilt posted 18.7, 18.3 and 6.6 per per on 557 TS% in the regular season
In the playoffs that dropped to 17.6, 18.3, 4.8 on 511TS%.

How about Kareem?

He had 24.1, 12.1, 3.4 in the regular season on 552TS%
When things got serious in the playoffs he increased his stats up to 29.1, 13.9, 3.4 on 608TS%.

So again, even looking purely at the raw volume counting stats that skew towards Wilt and his notorious padding, it looks like it distinctly favours Kareem once you factor pace in. Then Kareem's stats went through the roof the next 2 years, and he performed even better. Kareem's ppg per 100 possessions in his 2nd year were over 5 points higher than his rookie numbers in the regular season, and the same in the playoffs where he was a ludicrous 37.8 points per 100 possession those playoffs.

You complain about me comparing old man Wilt to Kareem, but I'm not the one who made that comparison. I just responded to it.

What's your point? That Kareem is a better scorer? Yeah, most people agree here. That's the only thing your numbers show here. It's not why Wilt competes with him peak vs peak though.

[70sFan]

Is it reasonable to say that both Wilt and Bird slightly ( or more than slightly) regressed in the playoffs on average ?

I think so, though with limited information we have it is reasonable to assume that Wilt's defense improved in the playoffs, so maybe he didn't really regress after all?

Well in terms of the question I think I’d choose Kareem/Magic due to those reasons

I also think I'd take Magic and Kareem here, but it's a very close comparison. 1977 Kareem + 1987 Magic would be absurd, but so would 1964 Wilt + 1986 Bird.

[Jaivl]

Now, what if instead we put in a 1967 or 1968 Wilt Chamberlain—how good could that pairing be? Chamberlain dominating on defense, scoring at the rim, passing well, maybe not passing at the level of a Bill Walton, but still.

That's an understatement if I've ever seen one.

I don't really have anything substantial to support my opinion, but... I just can't see Bird and Wilt meshing well. Something about the reactive vs static nature of their games.

[70sFan]

Now, what if instead we put in a 1967 or 1968 Wilt Chamberlain—how good could that pairing be? Chamberlain dominating on defense, scoring at the rim, passing well, maybe not passing at the level of a Bill Walton, but still.

That's an understatement if I've ever seen one.

Why do you think the difference is so drastic?

[kendogg]

Larry and Wilt weren't worse in the playoffs. They simply played the same amount of minutes and took the same amount of shots as in the regular season, now against only the best teams in the league. If you looked at their regular season stats against only the best teams its likely the same as their playoff stats. Not everyone plays significantly more minutes in the playoffs it entirely depends on the team, depth, how much load management you do, etc. In Wilt's case he was already playing 46-48 minutes a game in the regular season so he couldn't possibly play more in the playoffs.

Most players who average significantly more in the playoffs were coasting in the regular season. Rotations tighten for many teams of course in the post season but not all, and less so in earlier eras where load management was not a thing.

Wilt did shoot less a couple seasons in the playoffs early on, but that was because one of his teammates stepped up to take a bigger offensive load, which let Wilt focus a bit more on defense. Like most players and teams, individual stats don't really matter it's about trying to win. Wilt might have stat chased a bit in the regular season but never in the playoffs.

[ZeppelinPage]

Wilt's shot attempts went down in the playoffs because Auerbach and other coaches would constantly double or triple team him for most of the game. A guard would often front him with a center behind, making it difficult for his teammates to get the ball into him. The zone defense rule was not properly enforced, so teams would take advantage of the poor spacing.

[SNPA]

Regular season – 1969-70

1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1970-71

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W

3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W

4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L

5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W

6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W



If Wilt was in his prime I think that Wilt would have had his way with Kareem as it was he was already his equal despite suffering a serious knee injury.

As in their first ten games against each other, their stats were basically equal

This is partly why I’m not has high on KAJ on a GOAT list as others. We have seen what an older, post injury Wilt looked like against him. That version of Wilt could throw the skyhook back at him. What does a younger, prime Wilt do?

[70sFan]

...

What are your thoughts on Wilt's passing abilities and the mentioned Walton comparison?

[70sFan]

Regular season – 1969-70

1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1970-71

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W

3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W

4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L

5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W

6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W



If Wilt was in his prime I think that Wilt would have had his way with Kareem as it was he was already his equal despite suffering a serious knee injury.

As in their first ten games against each other, their stats were basically equal

This is partly why I’m not has high on KAJ on a GOAT list as others. We have seen what an older, post injury Wilt looked like against him. That version of Wilt could throw the skyhook back at him. What does a younger, prime Wilt do?

I'm not sure, older Wilt was more disciplined man defender than young Wilt. I haven't seen enough of prime Wilt against any elite scoring centers (Bellamy, Reed) due to lack of footage, but the possessions against Russell doesn't make him look clearly better.

[ZeppelinPage]

...

What are your thoughts on Wilt's passing abilities and the mentioned Walton comparison?

Wilt could make some impressive passes, as you also know. I think when you look at that '67 76ers team and consider that he was leading the team in assists, and that it had the greatest relative ORtg of all time up to that point, it's hard to argue that he isn't at least on the same level as Walton. Considering the high level at which the 76ers' offense was playing, I can't imagine Wilt's passing skills being anything other than extremely valuable.

Now, if someone wants to tell me "Walton is the better passer," I don't have any qualms with that. He might not have had the volume of Wilt, but his ability to hit cutters through tight spaces, especially with that bounce pass of his, certainly puts him among the best. I just think that both are fantastic and it's close either way.

[mstat13shuh]

"Now, if someone wants to tell me "Walton is the better passer," I don't have any qualms with that."

ZeppelinPage, you seem to me rather nuanced, fair & insightful in your analysis of Wilt(at least his passing abilities, I haven't read your analysis of his additional aspects, so please feel free to inform me of them if you deem necessary here at all)so I'm certainly not going to debate with you back & forth about this, however, I do have the following to surmise:

I don't know about most viewers, but me personally, I would have a slight issue with them making this assertion, at least if it's on an ethnicity basis.

Reason being is this:

I don't hardly watch live games anymore, however, in one of the last remaining Denver games I viewed, a few of the commentators were attempting to make Jokic's passing comparisons with some great passing centers in history.

I distinctly recall them mentioning Walton, A. Sabonis.

Excellent passers from the center position, particularly if the surrounding personnel necessitating them accumulating high assist totals for certain games, seasons, etc. No issue here from me whatsoever.

However, when they didn't bring up even one center of Moorish(Afro-American)descent, particularly Wilt & Bill Russell, I wasn't so much angry as I was irritated & annoyed.

Because, if you examine Jokic's season & compare it with Wilt's 76ers epically historic 66-67(& to a similar extent, the following season even more so)campaign, by today's assist interpretation, Jokic did average almost as many regular season assists per game as Wilt did in 66-67(10 RS apg by today's criteria).

Yet, even though the above is overwhelmingly true, as well as other additional similar recent Jokic feats that he & his team have achieved, both this season & in recent seasons, how many commentators, both during games & otherwise, have even attempted to make the Wilt assist comparisons?

Like I said above, not only do I not hardly view live games anymore, but also live mainstream shows.

So I wouldn't know if any commentators have engaged in Wilt-Jokic passing comparisons, & even if they have, are they doing so with a fair & nuanced approach to Wilt & his legacy, both on a personal & professional level?

If so, I'd certainly love to see an example and/or link from whomever chooses to respond to this.

In closing, much love & congratulations to Nikola Jokic & the Denver Nuggets for an excellent regular season & playoff run.