Where does Jokic rank all time?

[flaco]

Where does Jokic rank all time? I'm talking just talent, not accolades. He's still young. It's possible he'll win more rings or MVPs.

Imo

- Best offensive Center of all time
- Top 6 Center ahead of Hakeem, quite possibly even higher than that. His defense drags him down a bit, cause Center is hands down the most important defensive position.
- Top 15 all positions included, quite possibly even higher than that. In terms of pure talent, I'd go even as high as top 5.

Recency bias? Maybe, but I truly believe he's an offensive genius. Fwiw, the advanced stats absolutely love his game. He ranks in the top 6 in all major advanced metrics on B/R. Feel free to take all these numbers with a grain of salt, especially the DBPM rankings.

WS/48 (single season peak)

1. Kareem .3399 (1972)
2. Wilt .3251 (1964)
3. LeBron .3220 (2013)
4. Jordan .3211 (1991)
5. Steph .3177 (2016)
6. Jokic .3085 (2023)

WS/48 (career average)

1. Jordan .2505
2. Robinson .2502
3. Wilt .2480
4. Jokic .2474

Box Plus/Minus (single season peak)

1. Jokic +13.72 (2022)
2. LeBron +13.24 (2009)
3. Jordan +12.96 (1988)

Box Plus/Minus (career average)

1. Jokic +9.42
2. Jordan +9.21
3. LeBron +8.76

Offensive Box Plus/Minus (single season peak)

1. Steph +10.35 (2016)
2. T-Mac +9.83 (2003)
3. LeBron +9.54 (2009)
4. Harden +9.36 (2019)
5. Jokic +9.21 (2022)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus (career average)

1. Jordan +7.17
2. LeBron +7.00
3. Jokic +6.71

Defensive Box Plus/Minus (single season peak)

1. McMillan 5.54 (1994)
2. Manute Bol 4.68 (1986)
3. Robinson 4.58 (1992)
4. Jokic 4.51 (2022 and 2023)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus (career average)

1. Robinson 3.05
2. McMillan 2.94
3. Mark Eaton 2.91
4. Draymond Green 2.91
5. Jokic 2.72

VORP (single season peak)

1. Jordan 12.47 (1988)
2. LeBron 11.79 (2009)
3. Robinson 11.36 (1994)
4. Garnett 9.97 (2004)
5. Chris Paul 9.86 (2009)
6. Jokic 9.81 (2022)

PER (single season peak)

1. Jokic 32.85 (2022)
2. Wilt 32.08 (1962)
3. Giannis 32.05 (2022)

PER (career average)

1. Jordan 27.91
2. Jokic 27.65
3. LeBron 27.22

[dygaction]

Right now ~15, his trajectory is higher than Bird, Kobe, and Hakeem. This guy has really cracked the game of basketball, even on all defensive metrics... Last year he proved GOAT level floor and this season GOAT level ceiling.

[Statlanta]

I think his ceiling his Bird but I have him in the 40s if he retired tomorrow

[One_and_Done]

Top 20. People are really overreacting per usual.

[SK21209]

I think his ceiling his Bird but I have him in the 40s if he retired tomorrow

An actually rational answer. You don’t get to be a Top 20 all-time basketball player after playing 8 seasons. Jokic is getting comparisons to Duncan; Duncan did what Jokic is doing now in the early 2000s and then was arguably the best player on a championship team 10 years later. Longevity and aggregate stats matter.

[HeartBreakKid]

Top 20. People are really overreacting per usual.

I think it's interesting you said most people are overreacting but you're likely going to end up rating him much higher than most.

[wojoaderge]

Right outside the Top 20 for me

[spree8]

I think everyone is different in terms of criteria. I think best player and best career are two different things, but most often they’re talked about in the same breath in all-time rankings.

I also don’t weigh what players of the 50’s-70’s did very heavily considering how evolved the game is and the skills are now. Like Bill Russell for example, while a great competitor, leader, defender, rebounder, motor, passer, etc… I dunno if in the modern game he’d be better than KG. But career wise, he’s at the very top of the list.

That being said, I typically rank my all-time players the way I would if I were drafting a team from scratch, and I’d say Jokić would be top 15 for me right now.

[Cavsfansince84]

Have him at about 35-40 I think but its one of those things where 3 years from now I'll probably have him at like 22 and eventually top 15.

[ceiling raiser]

I think his ceiling his Bird but I have him in the 40s if he retired tomorrow

Where do you have Bird, and where do you rank him if his career ends after 86-87 (eight years)?

[TheLand13]

I don’t really see how you can put him outside the top 30 at this point. Someone mentioned that his ceiling is Bird, and while I think that’s an odd statement to make since everyone’s viewpoint of where he belongs all time is different, I actually kind of get where they’re coming from.

In any case, these past few seasons from Jokic have been insane. Where we go from here is anyone’s guess, but if he continues to keep up this dominance, I don’t see how he doesn’t at the very least crack top 15.

[OhayoKD]

Where does Jokic rank all time? I'm talking just talent, not accolades. He's still young. It's possible he'll win more rings or MVPs.

Imo

- Best offensive Center of all time
- Top 6 Center ahead of Hakeem, quite possibly even higher than that. His defense drags him down a bit, cause Center is hands down the most important defensive position.
- Top 15 all positions included, quite possibly even higher than that. In terms of pure talent, I'd go even as high as top 5.

Recency bias? Maybe, but I truly believe he's an offensive genius. Fwiw, the advanced stats absolutely love his game. He ranks in the top 6 in all major advanced metrics on B/R. Feel free to take all these numbers with a grain of salt, especially the DBPM rankings.

WS/48 (single season peak)

1. Kareem .3399 (1972)
2. Wilt .3251 (1964)
3. LeBron .3220 (2013)
4. Jordan .3211 (1991)
5. Steph .3177 (2016)
6. Jokic .3085 (2023)

WS/48 (career average)

1. Jordan .2505
2. Robinson .2502
3. Wilt .2480
4. Jokic .2474

Box Plus/Minus (single season peak)

1. Jokic +13.72 (2022)
2. LeBron +13.24 (2009)
3. Jordan +12.96 (1988)

Box Plus/Minus (career average)

1. Jokic +9.42
2. Jordan +9.21
3. LeBron +8.76

Offensive Box Plus/Minus (single season peak)

1. Steph +10.35 (2016)
2. T-Mac +9.83 (2003)
3. LeBron +9.54 (2009)
4. Harden +9.36 (2019)
5. Jokic +9.21 (2022)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus (career average)

1. Jordan +7.17
2. LeBron +7.00
3. Jokic +6.71

Defensive Box Plus/Minus (single season peak)

1. McMillan 5.54 (1994)
2. Manute Bol 4.68 (1986)
3. Robinson 4.58 (1992)
4. Jokic 4.51 (2022 and 2023)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus (career average)

1. Robinson 3.05
2. McMillan 2.94
3. Mark Eaton 2.91
4. Draymond Green 2.91
5. Jokic 2.72

VORP (single season peak)

1. Jordan 12.47 (1988)
2. LeBron 11.79 (2009)
3. Robinson 11.36 (1994)
4. Garnett 9.97 (2004)
5. Chris Paul 9.86 (2009)
6. Jokic 9.81 (2022)

PER (single season peak)

1. Jokic 32.85 (2022)
2. Wilt 32.08 (1962)
3. Giannis 32.05 (2022)

PER (career average)

1. Jordan 27.91
2. Jokic 27.65
3. LeBron 27.22

in terms of talent he's an easy top-5 argument, you could even go as far as putting him 2nd. In terms of all-time conversations longevity puts him a fair-but lower and if you mean relative to the league, even at his peak, top 3 is a stretch

[Cavsfansince84]

I don’t really see how you can put him outside the top 30 at this point. Someone mentioned that his ceiling is Bird, and while I think that’s an odd statement to make since everyone’s viewpoint of where he belongs all time is different, I actually kind of get where they’re coming from.

In any case, these past few seasons from Jokic have been insane. Where we go from here is anyone’s guess, but if he continues to keep up this dominance, I don’t see how he doesn’t at the very least crack top 15.

It isn't that hard. He's basically had 3 super high level seasons at this point. Granted they are super high with 2 mvps, ring and overall very good playoff series but then I look at guys like Havlicek, who was mvp level for a few seasons, all def for about 15 years, 1a or 1b on 2 title teams and a great role player on 6 others and he's outside most people's top 30 and I think still deserves to be ahead of Jokic, as would Baylor and a few others. So I think 35 is a fair place to have him ranked as of now. Keep in mind Jokic has also improved on defense(was considered a major negative there for most of his career) and didn't get himself into great shape until a few seasons ago.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don’t really see how you can put him outside the top 30 at this point. Someone mentioned that his ceiling is Bird, and while I think that’s an odd statement to make since everyone’s viewpoint of where he belongs all time is different, I actually kind of get where they’re coming from.

In any case, these past few seasons from Jokic have been insane. Where we go from here is anyone’s guess, but if he continues to keep up this dominance, I don’t see how he doesn’t at the very least crack top 15.

It isn't that hard. He's basically had 3 super high level seasons at this point. Granted they are super high with 2 mvps, ring and overall very good playoff series but then I look at guys like Havlicek, who was mvp level for a few seasons, all def for about 15 years, 1a or 1b on 2 title teams and a great role player on 6 others and he's outside most people's top 30 and I think still deserves to be ahead of Jokic, as would Baylor and a few others. So I think 35 is a fair place to have him ranked as of now. Keep in mind Jokic has also improved on defense(was considered a major negative there for most of his career) and didn't get himself into great shape until a few seasons ago.

Jokic has had 3 seasons where he has deserved to win MVP. He has had more than 3 seasons of super high level (if we are using Hondo as a barometer for MVP level). He has been an MVP caliber player since 2019 at the very least. He simply just had his skeptics and people were late to the party. He was not just some borderline all-star player before 2021.

There are not many players in NBA history who were top 5 players for 5 seasons and the probably best player in the world for 3/5 of those seasons.

[Cavsfansince84]

Jokic has had 3 seasons where he has deserved to win MVP. He has had more than 3 seasons of super high level (if we are using Hondo as a barometer for MVP level). He has been an MVP caliber player since 2019 at the very least. He simply just had his skeptics and people were late to the party. He was not just some borderline all-star player before 2021.

There are not many players in NBA history who were top 5 players for 5 seasons and the probably best player in the world for 3/5 of those seasons.

Nah I don't agree. I get everyone is very high on him right now but he reached a whole nother level both off and def these last 3 years and started playing much bigger mpg. Also a big part of why he finished high in mvp in 2019 was due to injuries to the usual suspects. So I'd say top 2 the last 3 years and really more like top 10 the 3-4 years before that. I think that's being realistic. This isn't a Steph Curry situation where we go back and say how underrated he was before he won mvp imo. Even in terms of box score metrics which love him lately he trends more as top 10 for 17-20 which doesn't really factor in defense.

[Narigo]

Top 40

[Colbinii]

I think everyone is different in terms of criteria. I think best player and best career are two different things, but most often they’re talked about in the same breath in all-time rankings.

I also don’t weigh what players of the 50’s-70’s did very heavily considering how evolved the game is and the skills are now. Like Bill Russell for example, while a great competitor, leader, defender, rebounder, motor, passer, etc… I dunno if in the modern game he’d be better than KG. But career wise, he’s at the very top of the list.

That being said, I typically rank my all-time players the way I would if I were drafting a team from scratch, and I’d say Jokić would be top 15 for me right now.

Considering the game evolved far more in the past 10 years than it did from the 70s to the 90s, do you also weigh the 80s, 90s and even 2000s players lower as well?

[Colbinii]

The easiest place to start is Dwyane Wade. He is a near unanimous inclusion in the Top 30.

Season > 5 BPM
Wade 6 [with 2007 being an injury riddled season]
Jokic 7

Seasons > 10 WS
Wade 5
Jokic 5

Playoffs > 5 BPM
Wade 6
Jokic 5

Seasons > 10 BPM [ATG seasons]
Wade 1
Jokic 3

Seasons > 200 TS+
Wade 0
Jokic 3

Career TS+
Wade 605.1
Jokic 1306.1

Career FG+
Wade -95.3 [Yes, Wade is a career negative efficiency scoring from the field]
Jokic 1019.0

[Cavsfansince84]

The easiest place to start is Dwyane Wade. He is a near unanimous inclusion in the Top 30.

Season > 5 BPM
Wade 6 [with 2007 being an injury riddled season]
Jokic 7

Seasons > 10 WS
Wade 5
Jokic 5

Playoffs > 5 BPM
Wade 6
Jokic 5

Seasons > 10 BPM [ATG seasons]
Wade 1
Jokic 3

Seasons > 200 TS+
Wade 0
Jokic 3

Career TS+
Wade 605.1
Jokic 1306.1

Career FG+
Wade -95.3 [Yes, Wade is a career negative efficiency scoring from the field]
Jokic 1019.0

While I get the overall point you made with those stats/metrics I do think the thresholds are a bit weighted towards Jokic in terms of addressing the primary argument which would keep him outside the top 30 for many which is longevity. Wade, despite the stats you mention, still had at least 8 high level seasons(granted two he missed big portions), with a few more all star level sprinkled in, a fmvp and 3 rings total. Jokic has 3 great seasons and 4 more high level ones. So while I definitely think he is tracking to be top 15 all time I think Wade still deserves to be ranked higher.

[OhayoKD]

The easiest place to start is Dwyane Wade. He is a near unanimous inclusion in the Top 30.

Season > 5 BPM
Wade 6 [with 2007 being an injury riddled season]
Jokic 7

Seasons > 10 WS
Wade 5
Jokic 5

Playoffs > 5 BPM
Wade 6
Jokic 5

Seasons > 10 BPM [ATG seasons]
Wade 1
Jokic 3

Seasons > 200 TS+
Wade 0
Jokic 3

Career TS+
Wade 605.1
Jokic 1306.1

Career FG+
Wade -95.3 [Yes, Wade is a career negative efficiency scoring from the field]
Jokic 1019.0

Wade is a significantly better defender than Jokic