2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#601 » by eminence » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:44 am

AEnigma wrote:Why? Lebron was better in the regular season and arguably in the playoffs even with a foot injury.

What especially gets me is how people can do that while simultaneously locking Butler into their top three. Yeah, Butler has the Bucks series, that is why he is a lock for me too, but over the course of the entire postseason, it is not like he was any better or more productive on average…

Yet again, feels like a case of Lebron being negatively compared to his usual standards rather than being assessed neutrally.


I can see LeBrons case over Curry this season, but I don't really see a case to actually get him on the ballot (maybe if you really dumped Embiid for his playoffs?).

He and AD were near dead even by a whole ton of measures on the RS (I'd go Bron if forced to choose), and then AD unequivocally outplayed him in the playoffs.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#602 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:03 am

1# Jokic

2-6

AD/Embiid/Tatum/Curry/Jimmy in some order


For me, Jimmy had the best single round and that kind of was the key round for them to do anything but outside of that he wasn’t that good, since he got hurt at least (and he did fully say he wasn’t at 100% pre finals), but yeah gotta evaluate based on how he did.

AD is tough because he threw up such a stinker in the WCF, but his first two rounds, decisively outplayed Curry in round 2 and had one of the best defensive rounds I’ve ever seen in round 1

Tatum was great, slowed down a bit at the end of the Miami series though, and did kinda throw away one of the first two ones iirc, but availability is the best ability lol

Embiids playoffs drop him a lot

I get bron being here I think level of play his RS was up there for sure, and his playoffs was fine but man his halfcourt game suffered a lot with the injury. Don’t know if I’d put him there though
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#603 » by jalengreen » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:32 am

As of now

1. Jokic
2. Butler
3. Tatum
4. Embiid
5. Davis

Jokic is obviously a no-brainer

2-4 is certainly subject to change in terms of order. I worry I'm being too low on Embiid when he had a legitimately MVP level regular season, but his postseason pales in comparison to what Butler and Tatum accomplished (even if Butler only had one impressive playoff series - upsetting the one seed is a big deal to me).

#5 is tough. AD, Curry, LeBron are all worthy of consideration. I think I might throw in Luka as well, honestly. Curry's the odd man out there for me (it seems I'm relatively low on both his RS and PS). Luka was better per-minute and only played 43 fewer minutes total. Ultimately I probably lean AD here but still considering other worthy candidates
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#604 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:02 am

Hey folks:

With the NBA Finals over, I will open up the voting thread tomorrow, and and I'll give folks until next Tuesday morning (Pacific) before I tally up the votes.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#605 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:04 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:1# Jokic

2-6

AD/Embiid/Tatum/Curry/Jimmy in some order


For me, Jimmy had the best single round and that kind of was the key round for them to do anything but outside of that he wasn’t that good, since he got hurt at least (and he did fully say he wasn’t at 100% pre finals), but yeah gotta evaluate based on how he did.

AD is tough because he threw up such a stinker in the WCF, but his first two rounds, decisively outplayed Curry in round 2 and had one of the best defensive rounds I’ve ever seen in round 1

Tatum was great, slowed down a bit at the end of the Miami series though, and did kinda throw away one of the first two ones iirc, but availability is the best ability lol

Embiids playoffs drop him a lot

I get bron being here I think level of play his RS was up there for sure, and his playoffs was fine but man his halfcourt game suffered a lot with the injury. Don’t know if I’d put him there though


A stinker in the WCF? He averaged 27/14 on .605 TS% with 3 BPG. He couldn't keep up with the Joker, but no one could do that this year. Embiid, Butler, and Tatum all had "stinker" series when they got eliminated, but AD actually played quite well throughout the entire playoffs.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#606 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:19 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:1# Jokic

2-6

AD/Embiid/Tatum/Curry/Jimmy in some order


For me, Jimmy had the best single round and that kind of was the key round for them to do anything but outside of that he wasn’t that good, since he got hurt at least (and he did fully say he wasn’t at 100% pre finals), but yeah gotta evaluate based on how he did.

AD is tough because he threw up such a stinker in the WCF, but his first two rounds, decisively outplayed Curry in round 2 and had one of the best defensive rounds I’ve ever seen in round 1

Tatum was great, slowed down a bit at the end of the Miami series though, and did kinda throw away one of the first two ones iirc, but availability is the best ability lol

Embiids playoffs drop him a lot

I get bron being here I think level of play his RS was up there for sure, and his playoffs was fine but man his halfcourt game suffered a lot with the injury. Don’t know if I’d put him there though


A stinker in the WCF? He averaged 27/14 on .605 TS% with 3 BPG. He couldn't keep up with the Joker, but no one could do that this year. Embiid, Butler, and Tatum all had "stinker" series when they got eliminated, but AD actually played quite well throughout the entire playoffs.




Averages don’t really tell the story with AD, because how inconsistent he was and what his value is offensively

Offensively his value comes from creating high value opportunities with his movement and athleticism and finishing those high value opportunities at an insane rate

Not really what happened, Game 1 bumps his averages but game 2 was a stinker, Game 3 was good, and Game 4 was a stinker especially since half of his misses (where to be fair he got fouled for sure) he ended up on the floor and they’d kill us in transition

The thing is though, he got good opportunities, didn’t finish them at an elite rate, and he’s had an issue setting hard screens and rolling hard to the basket all year post injury since he wants that pocket pass and doesn’t wanna get into the packed paint even though it opens up for the ball handler in pick and rolls for us

Beyond that, the biggest issue is his self creation all playoffs and post injury fell off a cliff from pre injury because he was both just not really the same athletically with his foot + looked like he wanted to avoid contact because the foot is a step away from a season ending injury, iirc he was the second best post player pre injury considering volume and effeciency (and in post tracking the stretch after he said his back felt good to injury he shot the same percentage in the post as Jokic!) and he was like the worst high volume post scorer in effeciency after the injury

Defensively he did a good job once he got switched off of Jokic for sure, in terms of the gameplan against Jokic, but wasn’t like the other series was


Game 1 was great offensively but defensively was poor because of how we utilized him, Game 2 and 4 were bad in general and he wasn’t really good on D in game 4 because of the types of misses he had killing us in transition. Game 3 was better statistically but there was an issue with his shot creation that had been an issue post injury, and while he got offensive boards and made a bunch of easy ones, he again couldn’t create anything for himself which killed us and the game in the few minutes lebron sat

I would say defensively he was a key part of the gameplan that was pretty effective against Jokic after game 1, but I’d also say it’s partially why I don’t rate defense as high necessarily, it wasn’t his fault but we couldn’t stop the jamal aspect of their offense at all, and while it’s not really his responsibility or fault there it does mean that, that defense was kind of for naught lol
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#607 » by 70sFan » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:04 am

Doctor MJ wrote:So, I don't think people actually PM'ed me about wanting to vote, so I'm going based on participation in this thread for now.

The following users I'm going to invite to vote - and I'm going to actually add you to the voter list, but please do let know if you're not interested.

70sFan wrote:.

AEnigma wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

ardee wrote:.

Colbinii wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

GSP wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

jalengreen wrote:.

jazzfan1971 wrote:.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:.

OkayoKD wrote:.

Outside wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

rk2023 wrote:.

SpreeS wrote:.

TexasChuck wrote:.

The-Power wrote:.


If your name is not on the list and you want to vote, please do PM me. I will say, because I have chosen the people most active on this thread, you're much more likely to get added to the list now if you have a prior track record of voting in these projects in the past.

I don't think I will find enough time to vote and I haven't followed RS very closely this year, so I don't think I feel competent enough to bring much value to the voting. I will follow the discussion though!
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#608 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:51 am

Sorry, I'm in the same boat. Probably watched less basketball this year than any year since law school. Enjoying the postseason and could comment on current Wizards but otherwise, I'm on the sketchy side.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#609 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:08 pm

I didn't see much basketball this year either. I usually do a full ballot, might just do the standard 3 awards.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#610 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:31 pm

Haven't been active lately but I really like this project so I'll make sure to vote.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#611 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:15 pm

Alright, so I'll post the new thread for voting shortly, but wanted to put my mind down here and also make clear that I'm interested in reading what others are thinking before I finalize.

POY
1. Nikola Jokic (DEN)
2. Jayson Tatum (BOS)
3. Jimmy Butler (MIA)
4. Joel Embiid (PHI)
5. Anthony Davis (LAL)

Jokic is at 1 by far and I'm thinking this is a unanimous kind a situation.

This is Embiid being surpassed by 2 guys and I worry about overreacting. He was certainly hurt in the playoffs, but that's life.

Davis is a fair bit down from those guys, he's remained ahead of Booker, Curry, and anyone else for a while now.

OPOY
1. Nikola Jokic (DEN)
2. Devin Booker (PHX)
3. Steph Curry (GSW)

Jokic, obvs. Curious to see who else people will put forward for the spots after Jokic.

DPOY
1. Evan Mobley (CLE)
2. Anthony Davis (LAL)
3. Jaren Jackson Jr. (MEM)

I keep chewing on Mobley vs Davis/JJJ. I'm more impressed by the latter two as players, but Mobley played considerably more while leading the best RS defense in the league and that defense didn't embarrass itself like the Cav offense did.

Draymond Green is another candidate. I'll admit to being unenthusiastic about his year for reasons that aren't primarily on-court.

ROY
1. Walker Kessler (UTA)
2. Paolo Banchero (ORL)
3. Jalen Williams (OKC)

Yup, I think I'm going Kessler here.

MIP
1. Lauri Markkanen (UTA)
2. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (OKC)
3. Jaren Jackson Jr. (MEM)

Lot of strong candidates this year, but Markkanen's out-of-nowhere rise feels like the right pick.

6MOY
1. Austin Reaves (LAL)
2. Bruce Brown (DEN)
3. Immanuel Quickley (NYK)

A couple of significant playoff-risers for me here. Happy for Bruce, excited for Austin.

COY
1. Erik Spoelstra (MIA)
2. Michael Malone (DEN)
3. Mike Brown (SAC)

Spo really cementing his status as the dean of NBA coaches in these playoffs. Malone had a dream run. Brown did not disappoint.

EOY
1. Danny Ainge (UTA)
2. Leon Rose (NYK)
3. Calvin Booth (DEN)

I don't like voting for tear downs, but when a tear down acquires both the MIP & ROY while hiring an impressive new coach, I can't pretend I'm not impressed by the GM's performance. Rose had a dream year but I think he got a bit lucky that the Mitchell move didn't go through given that I don't think pairing him with Brunson made sense. Don't want to overstate what Booth did - he didn't oversee the true core of the team - but his moves were just what the Joker ordered.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#612 » by eminence » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:09 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Davis is a fair bit down from those guys, he's remained ahead of Booker, Curry, and anyone else for a while now.


Just looking for some clarification on what this line means.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#613 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:13 pm

eminence wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Davis is a fair bit down from those guys, he's remained ahead of Booker, Curry, and anyone else for a while now.


Just looking for some clarification on what this line means.


He's probably going to get the 5th spot for me as I've had him in that spot for a few weeks now.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#614 » by Colbinii » Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:06 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Davis is a fair bit down from those guys, he's remained ahead of Booker, Curry, and anyone else for a while now.


Just looking for some clarification on what this line means.


He's probably going to get the 5th spot for me as I've had him in that spot for a few weeks now.


I'm also interpreting the comment as "My Top 4 is set and there is a gap to 5"
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#615 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:13 pm

WestGOAT wrote:Nuggets front-office deserves some props, I'm not familiar how FO operate in general, but surely the current Wolves GM did not do it all by himself? Same with coaching staffs, I consider the headcoach the head/face, but the snake keeps operating with the head chopped off so to speak.

I know a great deal is Jokic making other players look better, but he also isn't turning water into wine by himself, and I know a big part is a lot of key pieces returning from injury, but the the Nuggets roster is basically night/and day compared to the rosters from the previous days. KCP and Bruce Brown have been perfect complementary pieces, Aaron Gordon has been excellent replacing Jeremi Grant, German Brown might be the next Austin Reeves. Not a single bad contract besides MPJ, and he is still young enough to turn it around.

Just some random morning rambling on my part


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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#616 » by AEnigma » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:13 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Please remove specific references to previous years in your EOY vote, and do make sure you're trying to tie the award to the performance this year. I recognize that it's tough evaluate a GM simply based on one year, but aside from general principle, Riley won this award for the '19-20 season with his off-season acquisition of Jimmy Butler and Tyler Herro being at the front of everyone's mind, and Bam Adebayo's place on the team being established before that, and there are issues with using them perpetually for Riley's yearly candidacy.

Doc, if we follow this literally, you absolutely should be voting for Pelinka, yet of course you are (rightly, in my opinion) not, because what he did was undo his own disastrous moves prior. Executives do not build in a vacuum. Shrewd draft picks take time to pay off. Pat Riley looks a lot better for Vincent, and Martin, and Strus this year than he did last year. We want to call Bam, Butler, Duncan, and Lowry an ongoing passive “bonus” with only light relevance in any year after they pay off, fine, but these executives build their rosters across years, and to treat it otherwise is to play a game of “who made the best signing / trade” rather than who actually did the best job. Calvin Booth has made two good roleplayer signings for his team; that is not more active than what Riley did building his roster, and Riley built that roster around adjusting specific roles year to year.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#617 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:16 pm

AEnigma wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Please remove specific references to previous years in your EOY vote, and do make sure you're trying to tie the award to the performance this year. I recognize that it's tough evaluate a GM simply based on one year, but aside from general principle, Riley won this award for the '19-20 season with his off-season acquisition of Jimmy Butler and Tyler Herro being at the front of everyone's mind, and Bam Adebayo's place on the team being established before that, and there are issues with using them perpetually for Riley's yearly candidacy.

Doc, if we follow this literally, you absolutely should be voting for Pelinka, yet of course you are (rightly, in my opinion) not, because what he did was undo his own disastrous moves prior. Executives do not build in a vacuum. Shrewd draft picks take time to pay off. Pat Riley looks a lot better for Vincent, and Martin, and Strus this year than he did last year. We want to call Bam, Butler, Duncan, and Lowry an ongoing passive “bonus” with only light relevance in any year after they pay off, fine, but these executives build their rosters across years, and to treat it otherwise is to play a game of “who made the best signing / trade” rather than who actually did the best job. Calvin Booth has made two good roleplayer signings for his team; that is not more active than what Riley did building his roster.


Yup, if we are criticizing Pelinka and the rationale for not voting for him is because he undid a previous move he created, then we are taking into account previous years actions/moves.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#618 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:39 pm

AEnigma wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Please remove specific references to previous years in your EOY vote, and do make sure you're trying to tie the award to the performance this year. I recognize that it's tough evaluate a GM simply based on one year, but aside from general principle, Riley won this award for the '19-20 season with his off-season acquisition of Jimmy Butler and Tyler Herro being at the front of everyone's mind, and Bam Adebayo's place on the team being established before that, and there are issues with using them perpetually for Riley's yearly candidacy.

Doc, if we follow this literally, you absolutely should be voting for Pelinka, yet of course you are (rightly, in my opinion) not, because what he did was undo his own disastrous moves prior. Executives do not build in a vacuum. Shrewd draft picks take time to pay off. Pat Riley looks a lot better for Vincent, and Martin, and Strus this year than he did last year. We want to call Bam, Butler, Duncan, and Lowry an ongoing passive “bonus” with only light relevance in any year after they pay off, fine, but these executives build their rosters across years, and to treat it otherwise is to play a game of “who made the best signing / trade” rather than who actually did the best job. Calvin Booth has made two good roleplayer signings for his team; that is not more active than what Riley did building his roster, and Riley built that roster around adjusting specific roles year to year.


I'm really not looking to micro-manage your vote. If you're most impressed with what Riley is doing as a GM in '22-23, then a vote for him makes sense and you don't have to justify it beyond rebuttal. But actually giving stuff from previous years as your argument is problematic for the reasons I've outlined.

In a nutshell: We already gave him the award for acquiring Butler before, it doesn't make sense to give him the award to him for that same move every year.

Re: Pelinka. I don't want to get into a literal debate here, but I do want to try to address the confusion.

1. While I personally am not that impressed, from an EOY perspective, in trading away Westbrook, as a project runner I completely understand if others give Pelinka the award based on this.

2. Additionally if you're super impressed by the acquisition of Rui, DLo, Vando, etc, that certainly helps.

3. The treatment of Reaves is the part that I actually think my project runner hat is realistically more of a source of disagreement here. Because the acquisition came the previous year, I'm saying it should not be leaned on explicitly in EOY rationale. One can still talk about Pelinka's role in fostering Reaves this year, helped massively by getting rid of Westbrook, and one can still use that as part of one's reasoning for putting Pelinka at #1.
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#619 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:42 pm

yep Doc we argued about this before, but I don't see any justification for insisting on the following together:

1. Nothing about prior season should be considered in vote
2. But oh if I think you made mistakes before that you now fixed, you can't get a vote either.

I strongly disagree with one in principle for reasons we've gone over. Long-term planning is a thing. And I even more strongly disagree with 2. It basically says once you made a bad decision(or sometimes you made a good decision that blew up in your face) no matter how well you perform I won't consider you.

One of your favorite players is Steve Nash, and while you disagree, this guy wasn't even good really until he was 26. Wasn't a legit superstar until 30. Under these parameters we should have written him off when he was getting benched for Robert Pack or Travis Best well into his NBA career. But we know that is silly. We know he is allowed to get better. Why can't executives?
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Re: 2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#620 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:44 pm

Colbinii wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Please remove specific references to previous years in your EOY vote, and do make sure you're trying to tie the award to the performance this year. I recognize that it's tough evaluate a GM simply based on one year, but aside from general principle, Riley won this award for the '19-20 season with his off-season acquisition of Jimmy Butler and Tyler Herro being at the front of everyone's mind, and Bam Adebayo's place on the team being established before that, and there are issues with using them perpetually for Riley's yearly candidacy.

Doc, if we follow this literally, you absolutely should be voting for Pelinka, yet of course you are (rightly, in my opinion) not, because what he did was undo his own disastrous moves prior. Executives do not build in a vacuum. Shrewd draft picks take time to pay off. Pat Riley looks a lot better for Vincent, and Martin, and Strus this year than he did last year. We want to call Bam, Butler, Duncan, and Lowry an ongoing passive “bonus” with only light relevance in any year after they pay off, fine, but these executives build their rosters across years, and to treat it otherwise is to play a game of “who made the best signing / trade” rather than who actually did the best job. Calvin Booth has made two good roleplayer signings for his team; that is not more active than what Riley did building his roster.


Yup, if we are criticizing Pelinka and the rationale for not voting for him is because he undid a previous move he created, then we are taking into account previous years actions/moves.


Please see my response to AEnigma, but I'll add this:

I'm not saying that you must ignore the context of what came before '22-23 when deciding how impressive an EOY candidate is now, I'm saying explicitly listing a GM's multi-year moves every year we do this leads to the possibility of just giving the guy the EOY year after year on the basis of something he did once, which has never been how EOY has worked - either the official NBA EOY, or ours.
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