2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation - Can you BEALieve it

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Qwigglez]

Spoiler:

Lakers cannot take on Paul unless its post 7/1. Only one team can take on Paul now and that is the Spurs to absorb his contract..

And post 7/1, not sure the Lakers would use 30m of cap space for Paul. The Lakers could wait until Paul is stretched or traded/waived to get him

I came up with this four player trade - but not sure he Clippers would want Robinson

Heat: Marcus Morris - expiring contract to get rid of Robinsons contract, 2nd round pick to the Spurs

Spurs: chris Paul, 3m from Suns and 2nd round pick from Heat

Clippers - would they take Duncan Robinson

Suns: Dougie Buckets and sending money to Spurs - Suns might have to give a future 2nd

Suns do this if they think Dougie Buckets + TPMLE >>> Full MLE

Would Spurs be interested in trading Zach Collins? I'd take him and McBuckets if the Suns could.

Watanabe though is probably someone I think could start at the 3 for the Suns. He's a catch and shoot 3 specialist, and someone I was hoping would be included in the Durant deal. KD spoke highly of him when he was still on the Nets and I think he's one of those players that could be a late bloomer. Would be an easy outlet pass from Booker/KD when they get doubled.

[BobbieL]

Spoiler:

Lakers cannot take on Paul unless its post 7/1. Only one team can take on Paul now and that is the Spurs to absorb his contract..

And post 7/1, not sure the Lakers would use 30m of cap space for Paul. The Lakers could wait until Paul is stretched or traded/waived to get him

I came up with this four player trade - but not sure he Clippers would want Robinson

Heat: Marcus Morris - expiring contract to get rid of Robinsons contract, 2nd round pick to the Spurs

Spurs: chris Paul, 3m from Suns and 2nd round pick from Heat

Clippers - would they take Duncan Robinson

Suns: Dougie Buckets and sending money to Spurs - Suns might have to give a future 2nd

Suns do this if they think Dougie Buckets + TPMLE >>> Full MLE

Would Spurs be interested in trading Zach Collins? I'd take him and McBuckets if the Suns could.

Watanabe though is probably someone I think could start at the 3 for the Suns. He's a catch and shoot 3 specialist, and someone I was hoping would be included in the Durant deal. KD spoke highly of him when he was still on the Nets and I think he's one of those players that could be a late bloomer. Would be an easy outlet pass from Booker/KD when they get doubled.

The Suns would have to include more to take back close to $21 - that would be Cam Payne

Paul is 30.8 going out and only 15.8 coming back if traded before June 28

[Ghost of Kleine]

At this point, I really just want the Suns to guarantee Paul's 30 million ( IF we have a trade in place with Atlanta) for Collins/ Bey/ 36th pick. Run Collins at the 4 in an aaron Gordon type role and figure out a way to get Caruso for his elite defense, adfitional ballhandling, and high IQ plays.

Collins could be our Aaron Gordon. And Caruso could be our KCP. Then fill out the roster However we can. If we keep Ayton, we'd have great size, address our rebounding, physicality, rim protection, post defense with all three of Durant ( SF), Collins ( PF), and Ayton ( C). Caruso could play off of Booker defensively as a secondary ballhandler and elite lockdown perimeter/ pick n roll defender who is also familiar with Vogel.

If Vogel can really do wonders with bigs defensively and Fizdale is known as the " big man whisperer " too, imagine what those two could accomplish with a Collins/ Ayton frontcourt. Just have Collins play in a simplified role as a physical, rim running, shot blocking, rebounding defensive post presence. Durant can slide to the three so he wouldn't have to bang with the more physical 4's of the league and then he can use his size advantage over most 3's.

[BobbieL]

At this point, I really just want the Suns to guarantee Paul's 30 million ( IF we have a trade in place with Atlanta) for Collins/ Bey/ 36th pick. Run Collins at the 4 in an aaron Gordon type role and figure out a way to get Caruso for his elite defense, adfitional ballhandling, and high IQ plays.

Collins could be our Aaron Gordon. And Caruso could be our KCP. Then fill out the roster However we can. If we keep Ayton, we'd have great size, address our rebounding, physicality, rim protection, post defense with all three of Durant ( SF), Collins ( PF), and Ayton ( C). Caruso could play off of Booker defensively as a secondary ballhandler and elite lockdown perimeter/ pick n roll defender who is also familiar with Vogel.

If Vogel can really do wonders with bigs defensively and Fizdale is known as the " big man whisperer " too, imagine what those two could accomplish with a Collins/ Ayton frontcourt. Just have Collins play in a simplified role as a physical, rim running, shot blocking, rebounding defensive post presence. Durant can slide to the three so he wouldn't have to bang with the more physical 4's of the league and then he can use his size advantage over most 3's.

The problem with a Collins/Bey for Paul trade is that is does nothing to alleviate the number crunching,. Sure you get two players - but it still puts the Suns tight against the cap. Granted - its next year where the second apron really hits. Also if you pick up the option and trades fall through - that would not be good either

I think unless its a multi-team trade involving the SPurs - Paul will be stretched

[bwoolf2]

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KUZ

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

At this point, I really just want the Suns to guarantee Paul's 30 million ( IF we have a trade in place with Atlanta) for Collins/ Bey/ 36th pick. Run Collins at the 4 in an aaron Gordon type role and figure out a way to get Caruso for his elite defense, adfitional ballhandling, and high IQ plays.

Collins could be our Aaron Gordon. And Caruso could be our KCP. Then fill out the roster However we can. If we keep Ayton, we'd have great size, address our rebounding, physicality, rim protection, post defense with all three of Durant ( SF), Collins ( PF), and Ayton ( C). Caruso could play off of Booker defensively as a secondary ballhandler and elite lockdown perimeter/ pick n roll defender who is also familiar with Vogel.

If Vogel can really do wonders with bigs defensively and Fizdale is known as the " big man whisperer " too, imagine what those two could accomplish with a Collins/ Ayton frontcourt. Just have Collins play in a simplified role as a physical, rim running, shot blocking, rebounding defensive post presence. Durant can slide to the three so he wouldn't have to bang with the more physical 4's of the league and then he can use his size advantage over most 3's.

The problem with a Collins/Bey for Paul trade is that is does nothing to alleviate the number crunching,. Sure you get two players - but it still puts the Suns tight against the cap. Granted - its next year where the second apron really hits. Also if you pick up the option and trades fall through - that would not be good either

I think unless its a multi-team trade involving the SPurs - Paul will be stretched

No, I get that though! This is more of an " all in move to maximize Paul's value return. You'd still be able to offload Ayton somewhere for a more cost effective option and cap reduction to access our exceptions if due diligence is applied! Definitely to Houston whose already put out reports of interest in most every big name and notable center option out there. Ayton would still be a big get as a name to sell their fans on. And even his current max salary wouldn't be a big deal for them as they're sitting on upwards of 70 million in cap flexibility.

We could take back minimal salary and maybe the 20th pick. They'd get a big name that fits their timeline and might be able to help them to lure other free agents. Then we use our full midlevel to sign Lopez or Poetl ( ring chase)?? Or Naz Reid?? Maybe add Vincent or Strus along with Okogie and Watanabe, Dennis Smith Jr? We'd have options. Here are just a few examples of what we could consider for 3 team Ayton trades for cap reduction and depth pieces if we don't intend to keep him.

We could trade Ayton to Chicago ( in
a 3 way deal)

Chicago/ Orlando/ Phoenix
Chicago- Ayton/ Shamet/ 36th pick ( Orlando).
Orlando- Derozan/ DJones jr/ Portland 24' (lotto protected) 1st.
Phoenix- Fultz/ Houston.
OR
Phoenix- Harris/ Anthony/ Houston/ 11th pick.

Per recent reports, Dallas is willing to trade the 10th pick for Bogdanovic as they're prioritizing a premium wing option. Would they consider trading the 10th pick for Derozan if we take some salary back?
Chicago/ Dallas/ Phoenix
Chicago- Ayton/ Kleber/ Payne.
Dallas- Derozan/ Shamet/ Drummond/ Portland 24' (lotto protected) 1st.
Phoenix- Caruso/ Bullock/ McGee/ 10th pick.
Stretch Bullock for access to exception if necessary or keep him for depth. Trade Bullock and the 10th pick to Brooklyn for Finney Smith and the 22nd pick? Or maybe we acquire the 10th pick to flip it to Portland for Simon's and the 23rd pick?
Bullock/ McGee/ ( Atlanta filler)/ 10th pick for Simon's and the 23rd pick. Again, these are our two window " all in" moves to try and maximize our depleted asset situation.

[WeekapaugGroove]

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[BobbieL]

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KUZ

Kuzma and Morris would be a pretty strong trade for Ayton

or, make it a three team deal

Washington also gets Alec Burks
The Suns get Delon Wright or better yet - Devi
and the Pistons get Monty's player - Landry Shamet

dreaming is free

[KdoubleDees23]

Caruso sucks.
FVV is overrated by this board and not worth it

Give me Shroder over both those guys for less

[sunskerr]

Aaron Gordon is vastly different from John Collins. Gordon has better handles, probably a better defender (although Collins has improved somewhat), and a better passer.

[King4Day]

Not sure if this was posted

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[Saberestar]

He wants to stay in Phoenix.

“Absolutely,” Paul said. “That’s why I’m there.”

“I’ve talked with my family, we’ve had conversations about what could be, what might be,” Paul said. “I’ve talked with my agent. Talked to my brother (C.J. Paul).”

Spoiler:

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2023/06/15/absolutely-chris-paul-wants-to-stay-with-phoenix-suns/70326597007/

[sunskerr]

He wants to stay in Phoenix.

“Absolutely,” Paul said. “That’s why I’m there.”

“I’ve talked with my family, we’ve had conversations about what could be, what might be,” Paul said. “I’ve talked with my agent. Talked to my brother (C.J. Paul).”

Spoiler:

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2023/06/15/absolutely-chris-paul-wants-to-stay-with-phoenix-suns/70326597007/

Of course he wants to stay given Phoenixs proximity to his house/family, but the reality is hes 38 making $30m to average 13/8 for a team who already has two primary offensive creators. Somethings gotta give. The production per $ does not make sense.

If the Suns can waive and re-sign him for cheaper (what is it, $18m) and hes willing to come off the bench, or at least play 28-29 mins as a starter, when they find a 3&D point guard to help out, he'll make sense for the team.

[BobbieL]

He wants to stay in Phoenix.

“Absolutely,” Paul said. “That’s why I’m there.”

“I’ve talked with my family, we’ve had conversations about what could be, what might be,” Paul said. “I’ve talked with my agent. Talked to my brother (C.J. Paul).”

Spoiler:

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2023/06/15/absolutely-chris-paul-wants-to-stay-with-phoenix-suns/70326597007/

Of course he wants to stay given Phoenixs proximity to his house/family, but the reality is hes 38 making $30m to average 13/8 for a team who already has two primary offensive creators. Somethings gotta give. The production per $ does not make sense.

If the Suns can waive and re-sign him for cheaper (what is it, $18m) and hes willing to come off the bench, or at least play 28-29 mins as a starter, when they find a 3&D point guard to help out, he'll make sense for the team.

But would that still be the right move -- or would it make more sense to get the full MLE.

So its either Chris Paul + TPMLE or one or two players using the MLE

Not sure a trade with the Spurs makes sense - -just because may not like the contract coming back

[WeekapaugGroove]

Spoiler:

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2023/06/15/absolutely-chris-paul-wants-to-stay-with-phoenix-suns/70326597007/

Of course he wants to stay given Phoenixs proximity to his house/family, but the reality is hes 38 making $30m to average 13/8 for a team who already has two primary offensive creators. Somethings gotta give. The production per $ does not make sense.

If the Suns can waive and re-sign him for cheaper (what is it, $18m) and hes willing to come off the bench, or at least play 28-29 mins as a starter, when they find a 3&D point guard to help out, he'll make sense for the team.

But would that still be the right move -- or would it make more sense to get the full MLE.

So its either Chris Paul + TPMLE or one or two players using the MLE

Not sure a trade with the Spurs makes sense - -just because may not like the contract coming back

I think it's pretty clearly CP + the TPMLE. You're just not getting much of a player with that little bit of extra cash.

Hell look at MLE signings across the league the past 5 years, Jae Crowder was one of the best of bunch.

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[BobbieL]

Of course he wants to stay given Phoenixs proximity to his house/family, but the reality is hes 38 making $30m to average 13/8 for a team who already has two primary offensive creators. Somethings gotta give. The production per $ does not make sense.

If the Suns can waive and re-sign him for cheaper (what is it, $18m) and hes willing to come off the bench, or at least play 28-29 mins as a starter, when they find a 3&D point guard to help out, he'll make sense for the team.

But would that still be the right move -- or would it make more sense to get the full MLE.

So its either Chris Paul + TPMLE or one or two players using the MLE

Not sure a trade with the Spurs makes sense - -just because may not like the contract coming back

I think it's pretty clearly CP + the TPMLE. You're just not getting much of a player with that little bit of extra cash.

Hell look at MLE signings across the league the past 5 years, Jae Crowder was one of the best of bunch.

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Probably would agree with you. Still would need to figure out the other guard spot. I think for the price, Cam Payne is pretty much a lock - -or at least it doesn't make sense to not pick up his option. You can trade him - but waiving him for $2m - you still have to pay somebody.

If Paul wants to come back - and he will take the vet minimum - all for it. And unless the Lakers are giving him all of the TPMLE - not sure there is an economic benefit to him. Stay in Phoenix and finish what you started

Even the trade with Spurs - you are getting back McDermott, Graham or maybe a guy like Duncan Robinson if they trade for Beal (I can see Riley wanting to move that contract this year to prepare for 24/25).

[King4Day]

I follow him on the pods. He's not a guy who tries to get clicks so take this for what it's worth

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[Ghost of Kleine]

Aaron Gordon is vastly different from John Collins. Gordon has better handles, probably a better defender (although Collins has improved somewhat), and a better passer.

Are they really though man??
John Collins:
6'9 235 lbs with a 6'11 wingspan 37' inch vertical.

Aaron Gordon:
6'8-6'9 235 lbs with a 7'0 wingspan 39' inch vertical.

So basically the same type of athletic explosive big (4/5) with explosive verticality and decent but unspectacular wingspans for their respective size. Now onto their on-court production attributes that you specifically referenced:
https://stathead.com/tiny/gSodk
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=gordoaa01&player_id1=collijo01&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=collijo01
John Collins: (Per game)
15 points/8 rebounds/1.5 assists/1 block/0.6 steals / 1.4 turnovers on 55%FG/35% 3Pt/ 78% FT/ 59% EFG.

Aaron Gordon: (per game)
13 points/6 rebounds/ 2,5 assists/ 0.6 blocks/0.7 steals/ 1.5 turnovers on 47% FG/ 32% 3 PT/ 68% FT/ 52% EFG.

PER 36 Numbers:
Collins:
19 points/ 9 rebounds/ 1.8 assists/ 1.3 blocks/ 0.7 steals/ 1.8 Turnovers . TS% 62/ WS/48 =32.3/ BPM- 0.9/ VORP- 7.8

Gordon:
16 points/7 rebounds/ 3.1 assists/ 0.8 blocks/0.9 steals/ 1.8 Turnovers. TS% 55/ WS/48-= 35.6/ BPM- 0.2/ VORP- 9.4

so with all due respect to your perspective man, aside from a slight (at best) variance in per 36 advanced stats in a few categories) the majority of categories quite obviously favor Collins, but to the overall comparison, it's quite clear that ultimately they're not at all vastly different players and in fact, as previously stated, they're both quite similar, to say the least!! Because both are very athletic mobile bigs who are rim runners with SOME floor spacing ability, defensive versatility, and great vertical burst but uninspiring wingspans. And to my initial position, Collins could play in a very similar role as a physical athletic rim running big with some defensive versatility and a modicum of floor spacing ability. And that's wherein my comparison is quite accurate in premise.