Tools to become Jordan

[BAMAFREAK]

We all know that all lot went in to making Jordan the goat, not only if bball but possibly all team sports. More so than his physical gifts, it was his drive and determination, instincts, and his ability to stay present and the fact that basketball was his #1 priority with no close competition.
But with that, he also had outlier gifts such as his athletic ability, frame, explosion, body control and hand size.
Who had or has those tools but lacked or needs the goat level work ethic and drive to be that great. In my estimation, there are only a few who had or have the ingredients:
Kobe, Steph and Lebron are the obvious ones and they both got as close as what may be possible to his level. Below are the guys who think had the physical tools but lacked the intangibles, mainly that killer edge.
Vince Carter- VC had all the physical tools and obviously a great work ethic to stay on the league and reinvent his game like he did. To me, he just lacked that killer mentality and edge. Maybe even too nice of a guy. To dig deeper, he may have even been too deep of an individual with talents spreading across other sports and even into music.
If he was wired a tad differently he could’ve been lethal.
Iverson is a favorite of mine but he lacked the size to truly control the game against the best teams consistently and over a 7 game series. He had the instinct but he also had off court interests that don’t align with maximizing ability.
Durant has it all except the kill or be killed mentality. He’s also not near as cerebral as Mike was.
The current guy who has the bag is A Edwards but he’s got a long ways to go.
I mainly started this thread cause I’m playing 2k eras and started in 2k with the Raptors and just thought of how much more VCs career could’ve been.

[SHAQ32]

KD kind of resembles MJ facially

[Colbinii]

The fact that Vince Carter had such a long career as a role player goes to show the type of personality he had--and it was the opposite of Jordan. He played for 4 teams over 3 seasons as he went from a star [more of a high-volume scoring wing than a real star at that point in his career] to a bench-role/role player by the time he was in Dallas. At that point, after his age 37 season, he was done as being a meaningful, positive impact player on the court. He had some surprisingly effective season after this point, notably in 2017 where both WS/48 and BPM paints him as a net-positive, as does his +/- and On/Off for an talent-deprived Memphis team [aside from late prime Conley/Gasol].

It isn't easy for players to morph and change [see Carmelo, Westbrook, Jordan, Kobe, Wade], and while many point to a killer-mentality they had, it is a double-edged sword where all these guys, as they faded from relevance, still played the same way as in their prime [notably shot selection and volume].

Dirk is another guy like Vince, who aged gracefully and pivoted into a different role and embraced the role, but I don't view Dirk as any less of a killer than the aforementioned above names.

Keep in mind all these guys are offensive-slanted players, where they all sacrificed any and all defensive responsibility and impact they had in order to keep up the offensive volume over the course of a 30+ minute game.

[rk2023]

We all know that all lot went in to making Jordan the goat, not only if bball but possibly all team sports. More so than his physical gifts, it was his drive and determination, instincts, and his ability to stay present and the fact that basketball was his #1 priority with no close competition.
But with that, he also had outlier gifts such as his athletic ability, frame, explosion, body control and hand size.
Who had or has those tools but lacked or needs the goat level work ethic and drive to be that great. In my estimation, there are only a few who had or have the ingredients:
Kobe, Steph and Lebron are the obvious ones and they both got as close as what may be possible to his level. Below are the guys who think had the physical tools but lacked the intangibles, mainly that killer edge.
Vince Carter- VC had all the physical tools and obviously a great work ethic to stay on the league and reinvent his game like he did. To me, he just lacked that killer mentality and edge. Maybe even too nice of a guy. To dig deeper, he may have even been too deep of an individual with talents spreading across other sports and even into music.
If he was wired a tad differently he could’ve been lethal.
Iverson is a favorite of mine but he lacked the size to truly control the game against the best teams consistently and over a 7 game series. He had the instinct but he also had off court interests that don’t align with maximizing ability.
Durant has it all except the kill or be killed mentality. He’s also not near as cerebral as Mike was.
The current guy who has the bag is A Edwards but he’s got a long ways to go.
I mainly started this thread cause I’m playing 2k eras and started in 2k with the Raptors and just thought of how much more VCs career could’ve been.

This is very intriguing as a think-piece - thank you for sharing. I would add Wade and McGrady to the latter grouping - but think injuries and situation did them in rather than intangibles. Prime for prime, I think they were right there with different Kobe seasons (01-03 vs. 05-07, 09 - respectively) for example. However, both couldn't extend their careers well due to injury and fell victim to having some of their better years deployed as floor-raisers of pretty mediocre casts.

[BAMAFREAK]

We all know that all lot went in to making Jordan the goat, not only if bball but possibly all team sports. More so than his physical gifts, it was his drive and determination, instincts, and his ability to stay present and the fact that basketball was his #1 priority with no close competition.
But with that, he also had outlier gifts such as his athletic ability, frame, explosion, body control and hand size.
Who had or has those tools but lacked or needs the goat level work ethic and drive to be that great. In my estimation, there are only a few who had or have the ingredients:
Kobe, Steph and Lebron are the obvious ones and they both got as close as what may be possible to his level. Below are the guys who think had the physical tools but lacked the intangibles, mainly that killer edge.
Vince Carter- VC had all the physical tools and obviously a great work ethic to stay on the league and reinvent his game like he did. To me, he just lacked that killer mentality and edge. Maybe even too nice of a guy. To dig deeper, he may have even been too deep of an individual with talents spreading across other sports and even into music.
If he was wired a tad differently he could’ve been lethal.
Iverson is a favorite of mine but he lacked the size to truly control the game against the best teams consistently and over a 7 game series. He had the instinct but he also had off court interests that don’t align with maximizing ability.
Durant has it all except the kill or be killed mentality. He’s also not near as cerebral as Mike was.
The current guy who has the bag is A Edwards but he’s got a long ways to go.
I mainly started this thread cause I’m playing 2k eras and started in 2k with the Raptors and just thought of how much more VCs career could’ve been.

This is very intriguing as a think-piece - thank you for sharing. I would add Wade and McGrady to the latter grouping - but think injuries and situation did them in rather than intangibles. Prime for prime, I think they were right there with different Kobe seasons (01-03 vs. 05-07, 09 - respectively) for example. However, both couldn't extend their careers well due to injury and fell victim to having some of their better years deployed as floor-raisers of pretty mediocre casts.

McGrady is def a guy who had a lot of the requirements. Wade is a great name here. He had a lot of the nuanced mid range and could post up smaller guards that you need. He was just maybe a tad short and injured. Still had a great career.

[SHAQ32]

There's also politics at play. How else can you explain Austin Rivers being drafted 10th and sticking around 11 seasons?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Top athleticism, top body control in the air.
A good touch when finishing drives.
Good Pull up jumper set up by the threat to drive.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

There's also politics at play. How else can you explain Austin Rivers being drafted 10th and sticking around 11 seasons?

Austin Rivers is not the only grunt to last 11 years.
Austin Rivers body has held up well and he makes a defensive effort. He has some playmaking ability but his father was better.

[Pelly24]

I think it comes down having perfect fundamentals, a perfect basketball frame and the GOAT combo of fluid and explosive athleticism, along with GOAT mental makeup. A lot of people are fast and can jump high, but MJ is incredibly slithery and nimble with his movements, so he could make super sharp, refined movements — cuts, twists, shimmies, spins, violent jump cuts — like a 6'1" running back instead of a 6'5" small forward. So there's a chance someone like a Clyde Drexler or Dominique could jump as high, and maybe some people could be nearly as fast, but MJ also had that insane mobility and reflexes. He was also incredibly coordinated like a small guard. He could take off both feet equally well, or off both feet, never looked awkward. He moved like Kyrie or Ja Morant or Allen Iverson, but he was 6'5" without shoes and had a 6'10" wingspan and an 8'10" standing reach and massive hands. Then, he obviously was faster and bouncier than everyone in his era, and quite possibly even more so than people in this era. Usually people that have those combo of attributes — honestly, very very rare in history, I can't think of anyone besides LeBron, Zion and maybe Ja Morant and Westbrook in his own way, give or take a thing or two for each — don't have MJ's level of dexterity and touch. But MJ was just incredibly fundamentally sound. He had elite post moves, was a mid-40-percent midrange shooter coming into the league, could finish equally well with both hands and, he had the unique ability to hang in the air and be charging toward the rim with incredible speed and stop abruptly for a 16-footer that would somehow hit all net. That jumper, those handles, that footwork .. AND that athleticism. Just can't be beat. And then he had the work ethic and the mental stamina, like Jimmy Butler in a way. Plays with no insecurity. Idk. it's just a perfect constellation of tools. Even at his best in the early 2010s, I just feel like LeBron lacked the same confidence. There's just zero way MJ loses in the 2011 finals, let alone playing as poorly — and quietly — as LeBron. I put LeBron on the same level because his size lets him play more position and I think is better suited for being a self-contained 60-win team. But LeBron played and stayed in his physical prime so much, I think 2017-2020 LeBron is pretty much as good as most versions of MJ, he was just so confident in his shotmaking.

[VanWest82]

MJ was a phenomenal athlete coming into the league but I think we underestimate how much his mental make up determined how great he was. There were lots of guys as athletic as he was in 98. He still won.

[AEnigma]

Yeah, nowadays every team has multiple guys happy to take the last shot and to keep shooting even when their shot is off. Imagine if we still had Finals teams with mentally weak trios like Stockton/Hornacek/Malone, oof.

[migya]

Tools to become a star - Type of mental insanity and self driven desire.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Maybe the highest motor ever. People compare others guys to MJ in mentality, but I don't think any of them scratch MJ in how much he kept his foot on the gas pedal. I think MJ's motor from 96-98 was higher than a lot of superstar Peak SGs...he was that special.

MJ also had elite hand-eye coordination that allowed for him to become a terrific shooter. That combined with one of the fastest first steps ever, means no one can stay in front of him. Usually the way to take quick, great shooting guards is through length, but the thing is MJ was 6'6 in shoes so that was not really an option.

[oaktownwarriors87]

High motor, fast, quick, explosive, confident, competitive and ginormous hands.

[McBubbles]

We all know that all lot went in to making Jordan the goat, not only if bball but possibly all team sports. More so than his physical gifts, it was his drive and determination, instincts, and his ability to stay present and the fact that basketball was his #1 priority with no close competition.
But with that, he also had outlier gifts such as his athletic ability, frame, explosion, body control and hand size.
Who had or has those tools but lacked or needs the goat level work ethic and drive to be that great. In my estimation, there are only a few who had or have the ingredients:
Kobe, Steph and Lebron are the obvious ones and they both got as close as what may be possible to his level. Below are the guys who think had the physical tools but lacked the intangibles, mainly that killer edge.
Vince Carter- VC had all the physical tools and obviously a great work ethic to stay on the league and reinvent his game like he did. To me, he just lacked that killer mentality and edge. Maybe even too nice of a guy. To dig deeper, he may have even been too deep of an individual with talents spreading across other sports and even into music.
If he was wired a tad differently he could’ve been lethal.
Iverson is a favorite of mine but he lacked the size to truly control the game against the best teams consistently and over a 7 game series. He had the instinct but he also had off court interests that don’t align with maximizing ability.
Durant has it all except the kill or be killed mentality. He’s also not near as cerebral as Mike was.
The current guy who has the bag is A Edwards but he’s got a long ways to go.
I mainly started this thread cause I’m playing 2k eras and started in 2k with the Raptors and just thought of how much more VCs career could’ve been.

This fundamentally doesn't make sense and has never made sense in any sports comparison. You can't "mindset" your way though genetic differences. MJ wasn't better than everyone else primarily because of his mindset (though it was helpful). "Moreso than his physical gifts" absolutely not lol. There are likely several athletes who are just as if not more competitive and several NBA players more determined than Michael Retired Thrice Jordan and who wouldn't be able to overcome the talent gap.

It was 99% his athletic gifts, neuromuscular traits included like hand eye coordination, skill acquisition speed and skill retention etc. The difference between Vince and MJ isn't work ethic lol, it's fundamentally talent.

I'll see questions tangentially related to this like "Why couldn't Kobe become better than MJ? No one does this for other sports. "Ability" and "skills" aren't some abstract traits, they're just a combinations of athletic traits. The idea that hard work alone can make you overcome an ability gap if you can work at getting more skilled is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a skill is. Its some silly Naruto type ish repeated by NBA players who like to think of themselves as underdogs that mostly got to where they are because of hard work, as opposed to the truth, which is that they mostly got where they are due to an overwhelming athletic advantage. Eddie Hall says he had below average powerlifting genetics but just worked harder than everyone else ffs. Nonsense.

Let's take Steph for example. How in the **** would a better work ethic make Steph better than Michael Jordan ? He's way weaker than MJ, infinitely less explosive and much more injury prone. He's just straight up like 2 or 3 tiers below from an athletic stand point, he massively overachieved as is.

Most importantly thouy, you have to think Jordan is the goat for this to even make sense which I don't. Russell and Lebron in no particular order > MJ imo, so the "They'd be the GOAT if only they did X like MJ" set up doesn't work for me.

[SilentA]

A more disciplined and focused Shaq might have a shot in the GOAT conversation. Can't think of anyone else though.

[Heej]

All GOAT candidates are perfect storms. Top tier physical traits, mental traits, skillset, and lots of luck. Good luck if you fall short in any of those categories.

KG and Hakeem had more than enough of the first 3 and the fact that they were the unluckiest superstars in NBA history keep them from getting anywhere near the convo. KG maybe wouldn't have cut it anyway, but Hakeem got held back by crappy environment his entire career and that's all it took for him to never reach that level of acknowledgement even if his peak was very much comparable

[Eagle4]

KD kind of resembles MJ facially

funny because I always felt ANT and KD look similar.

[OhayoKD]

All GOAT candidates are perfect storms. Top tier physical traits, mental traits, skillset, and lots of luck. Good luck if you fall short in any of those categories.

KG and Hakeem had more than enough of the first 3 and the fact that they were the unluckiest superstars in NBA history keep them from getting anywhere near the convo. KG maybe wouldn't have cut it anyway, but Hakeem got held back by crappy environment his entire career and that's all it took for him to never reach that level of acknowledgement even if his peak was very much comparable

Don't know 2004 is significantly behind 93, 94, or 95 as a 1-year high. Would have been nice to see a bigger play-off sample though. And that's where, regardless of luck, being able to sustain or replicate your peaks helps. If Lebron and Kareem had fallen off as quickly as KG had, even their "peak" arguments would be significantly weaker(or at the very least, one people would be less receptive to). Duncan suffers significantly from injuries nuking his prime.

[penbeast0]

I saw the title and thought it would be, "Which current player can be as big a tool as MJ?" Great player, unpleasant person. Closest today would be Chris Paul and Jimmy Butler probably in terms of wants to win so much he can make his teammates uncomfortable.