’94 Hakeem Olajuwon vs ’23 Nikola Jokic

[No-more-rings]

The General Board is bleeding into the PC board. Man this site has gone to **** due to an abject lack of interest from its moderators.

This is so obviously Hakeem on pretty much every aspect besides passing that it absolutely blows my mind how insanely biased and clueless you have to be to think this comparison warrants discussion.

I’m taking Hakeem comfortably, but it’s not a laughable comparison. Is Bird or Magic vs Hakeem laughable to you too? Because there’s good reason to think Jokic is at the level of those two easily. Magic wasn’t any better on defense, and Jokic’s offense isn’t really taking a back seat to anyone anymore.

If anyone gets an irrational amount of love on the PC or GB it’s Curry. I remember in the goat peaks project he was getting votes as high as 3rd.

[No-more-rings]

Definitely Hakeem because at his peak he was a great scorer as well.

Defensively it’s just not close

this sounds very similar to "Embiid is great at offense as well while ebing an elite defender"

It sounds similar but it really isn’t. Embiid is a great defender, Hakeem is likely 2nd behind Russell as far as defense goes. Hakeem’s offense also is very battle tested and proven over large playoff samples, Embiid’s not so much.

[70sFan]

this sounds very similar to "Embiid is great at offense as well while ebing an elite defender"

This sounds like we can't differentiate among elite defenders. Hakeem was much better than Embiid on that end.

Do you suggest that picking Hakeem is wrong?

I suggest that the way this was presented is misleading because there's a massive difference between Jokic and Hakeem on offense.
It can go either and it's close, but "definitely" because Hakeem was a great scorer sounds off to me

It is, though I don't think the difference is bigger than on defense - and that was the original point. Hakeem was a very good offensive player, way better than Jokic as a defender.

[MyUniBroDavis]

This sounds like we can't differentiate among elite defenders. Hakeem was much better than Embiid on that end.

Do you suggest that picking Hakeem is wrong?

I suggest that the way this was presented is misleading because there's a massive difference between Jokic and Hakeem on offense.
It can go either and it's close, but "definitely" because Hakeem was a great scorer sounds off to me

It is, though I don't think the difference is bigger than on defense - and that was the original point. Hakeem was a very good offensive player, way better than Jokic as a defender.

Yeah I feel the comparing Embiid whose not a top 5 defender in the league right now to Hakeem whose like a clear 3 defender of all time, is kinda tough

Can’t help but think Hakeem would be ridiculous on offense today too anyways, the reads on post passes nowadays are much more clear than ones in pick and roll if a team knows how to run post counters, Hakeem iirc would go up through or away from help a lot (and usually make it) so that makes it even easier for him


Like if Embiid in the regular season was a DPOY level defender he would have been very clearly the best player in the RS I think, and I’m not worried about how peak Hakeem translates to the playoffs lmao

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I suggest that the way this was presented is misleading because there's a massive difference between Jokic and Hakeem on offense.
It can go either and it's close, but "definitely" because Hakeem was a great scorer sounds off to me

It is, though I don't think the difference is bigger than on defense - and that was the original point. Hakeem was a very good offensive player, way better than Jokic as a defender.

Yeah I feel the comparing Embiid whose not a top 5 defender in the league right now to Hakeem whose like a clear 3 defender of all time, is kinda tough

Can’t help but think Hakeem would be ridiculous on offense today too anyways, the reads on post passes nowadays are much more clear than ones in pick and roll if a team knows how to run post counters, Hakeem iirc would go up through or away from help a lot (and usually make it) so that makes it even easier for him


Like if Embiid in the regular season was a DPOY level defender he would have been very clearly the best player in the RS I think, and I’m not worried about how peak Hakeem translates to the playoffs lmao

totally disagree, I'm sure Hakeem was the worst passer of all the great centers (Wilt, Alcindor, Shaq, Duncan and now Jokic), probably close to Embiid.
reads nowdays are extremely more difficult for a post player, his improvement came in the mid 90s when Rudy T simplified the offense and had more modern spacing with 4 out. But I don't see him being really dominant nowadays, especially if he keeps his very unhealthy diet of tough shots.

[MyUniBroDavis]

It is, though I don't think the difference is bigger than on defense - and that was the original point. Hakeem was a very good offensive player, way better than Jokic as a defender.

Yeah I feel the comparing Embiid whose not a top 5 defender in the league right now to Hakeem whose like a clear 3 defender of all time, is kinda tough

Can’t help but think Hakeem would be ridiculous on offense today too anyways, the reads on post passes nowadays are much more clear than ones in pick and roll if a team knows how to run post counters, Hakeem iirc would go up through or away from help a lot (and usually make it) so that makes it even easier for him


Like if Embiid in the regular season was a DPOY level defender he would have been very clearly the best player in the RS I think, and I’m not worried about how peak Hakeem translates to the playoffs lmao

totally disagree, I'm sure Hakeem was the worst passer of all the great centers (Wilt, Alcindor, Shaq, Duncan and now Jokic), probably close to Embiid.
reads nowdays are extremely more difficult for a post player, his improvement came in the mid 90s when Rudy T simplified the offense and had more modern spacing with 4 out. But I don't see him being really dominant nowadays, especially if he keeps his very unhealthy diet of tough shots.

Yeah this isn’t true lol, post reads are easier than pick and roll reads.

High help or high help + bump > dig or stampede cut high
Baseline/opposite corner help > baseline flash or cut/seal or pin in flare or pindown

If they go under on pindown > reject screen pass to corner

It’s a bit more complicated than that but that’s a pretty large chunk of it. Teams aren’t as good at countering post reads as they are at countering pick and roll because there are like 2 players worth going through in the post in the league right now like that, and one of them gets hurt every playoffs and is coached by doc rivers.

Going through how offenses counter post reads takes like 20 minutes even if you go over pre catch stuff, going over how offenses counter a specific coverage in the pick and roll takes like 40 minutes per coverage so that’s about 2-3 hours minimum lol


Post passing leads to simpler reads on cuts and corner threes than other things, more so on cuts especially

People think these reads aren’t built in but it’s basically you look where the help comes from same as how the coverage in a ouck and roll but less moving parts. Iirc Hakeem vs single coverage was ridiculously unstoppable or something in tracking

[OdomFan]

Jokic is a better passer and 3 point shooter, Hakeem does everything else better.

Jokic is also a better rebounder and interior scorer.

I disagree

[One_and_Done]

I'm glad at least one of these polls isn't infected by recency bias. It's Hakeem and it's not close.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'm glad at least one of these polls isn't infected by recency bias. It's Hakeem and it's not close.

This happens every time someone wins, it is what it is.

If Jokic wins another few then yeah hype is probably deserved (and to be clear I do think he’s a top 10 peak for me, I don’t have him above Hakeem at all though, probably 7-8, although I don’t rate wilt or Russell at all) and if he loses next year and is disappointing on defense in the losing or something a lot of people are gonna troll about it then too

He’s like Giannis to me, absolutely dominant but there are matchups where he has issues defensively like Giannis does offensively. But there are also matchups where they’re good in those regards

Idk why but recency bias on realgm is wild lol, even more than like general casuals.

[VanWest82]

I'd probably lean Hakeem but I'm floored people seem to be making the argument that offense is close. It's not close. Jokic is way more efficient and makes everyone around him better. Dream was a great post player who progressed to be an ok passer.

As far as discrepancy on offense vs. discrepancy on defense, 23 Nuggets were the 15th ranked defense and 2nd ranked offense, and 94 Rockets were the 15th ranked offense and 2nd ranked defense. In playoffs, Nuggets improved to top 4 defensively and Rockets improved to top 4 offensively. There's obviously more to it, but at first glance it sure looks like their impact on opposite sides of the ball was at least similar.

[One_and_Done]

Jokic is a liability on one end of the floor, and has a glaring weakness that lets a certain type of offense destroy him. Hakeem has no glaring weakness. He's one of the GOATs on D, and he's still elite on the other end of the floor. That makes this easily Hakeem, despite Jokic having borderline GOAT offensive skills. If you want to compare Jokic to someone who is a borderline GOAT on one end of the floor, then you need to make sure they're a liability on the other end, or the chances are they'll be much better than Jokic.

Here is a list of players Jokic should never be compared to:
- Lebron
- Jordan
- Kareem
- Duncan
- Shaq
- Hakeem
- KG
- Curry
- KD

I don't personally think he's better than peak Magic, Bird, Giannis, Kawhi, D.Rob, etc, but at least there's something to debate. Those guys either have a fairly glaring weakness on the one end, or they're not GOAT level on one end. A comparison to guys with no weaknesses who also have GOAT ability on one end just doesn't work, because if you're honest with yourself you're never drafting the guy with the flaws ahead of the guy who is similarly good but minus the flaws.

[70sFan]

Jokic is a liability on one end of the floor, and has a glaring weakness that lets a certain type of offense destroy him. Hakeem has no glaring weakness. He's one of the GOATs on D, and he's still elite on the other end of the floor. That makes this easily Hakeem, despite Jokic having borderline GOAT offensive skills. If you want to compare Jokic to someone who is a borderline GOAT on one end of the floor, then you need to make sure they're a liability on the other end, or the chances are they'll be much better than Jokic.

Here is a list of players Jokic should never be compared to:
- Lebron
- Jordan
- Kareem
- Duncan
- Shaq
- Hakeem
- KG
- Curry
- KD

I don't personally think he's better than peak Magic, Bird, Giannis, Kawhi, D.Rob, etc, but at least there's something to debate. Those guys either have a fairly glaring weakness on the one end, or they're not GOAT level on one end. A comparison to guys with no weaknesses who also have GOAT ability on one end just doesn't work, because if you're honest with yourself you're never drafting the guy with the flaws ahead of the guy who is similarly good but minus the flaws.

I agree, Jokic should never be compared to Duranr peak-wise. He surpassed him 3 years ago on that matter.

[One_and_Done]

Peak Durant is a killer on offense, who actually helps you on D. Let's not act like most sensible ppl didn't have KD over Jokic before this season. Go look at the thoughtful, analytics focused commentators like Zach Lowe, Nate Duncan, Pelton, etc. Before this year most of them had peak KD over peak Jokic. If the Suns were healthy and/or had some depth they'd have beaten Denver in round 2 and this comparison would look laughable. Even Ben Taylor had Jokic ranked #3 in 2021, and he didn't think KD was the same post achilles; noting that peak KD would be #1 on his list over Jokic, Giannis & Curry.

People here need some time to come down off the championship afterglow, and be more measured on Jokic. I'd add I barely put KD on that list, he's the most arguable to take off and put in the bucket with the Kawhi and Giannis types.

Take a step back and be real with me. Would the Nuggets this year have been a top 4 team in any of the years 2016 to 2018? Teams like Harden's Rockets would have spanked Jokic in round 2, and nobody is even entertaining Harden as a top 20 all-time player. The Nuggets of the time knew it too. They tanked regular season games twice because they were so terrified of Jokic getting torched by Harden in the high pick and roll.

[70sFan]

Peak Durant is a killer on offense, who actually helps you on D. Let's not act like most sensible ppl didn't have KD over Jokic before this season. Go look at the thoughtful, analytics focused commentators like Zach Lowe, Nate Duncan, Pelton, etc. Before this year most of them had peak KD over peak Jokic. If the Suns were healthy and/or had some depth they'd have beaten Denver in round 2 and this comparison would look laughable.

People here need some time to come down off the championship afterglow, and be more measured on Jokic. I'd add I barely put KD on that list, he's the most arguable to take off and put in the bucket with the Kawhi and Giannis types.

I didn't have peak KD over Jokic before the season started, so this title run didn't change much. Durant also played very poorly in that series, while Jokic had one of the best series in the last 10 years, so it's funny that you bring up h2h battle.

KD is a killer on offense, but he's not close to Jokic as an offensive player. He's way worse playmaker and it's easier to game plan against him. He can have value on defense, but let's not act like he's anything more than a slight positive on that end either.

Durant has to be one of the most overrated players ever. He's immune to any criticism, because he's the type of player people love to exaggerate about - tall shooter with dribble game. The reality is that Durant never reached the heights of top 10 peak guys and his underperformances in the playoffs are always ignored. If Durant wasn't 6'10, nobody would say that he's clearly better than Wade, Kobe or West.

[70sFan]

Take a step back and be real with me. Would the Nuggets this year have been a top 4 team in any of the years 2016 to 2018? Teams like Harden's Rockets would have spanked Jokic in round 2, and nobody is even entertaining Harden as a top 20 all-time player.

I don't think the Nuggets are very strong champions, so I agree with you. What does it change though? Are you unable to understand that some people don't rank players based on titles won? As I said before, I had Jokic ahead of Durant in terms of peak last year when he lost in the first round.

The Nuggets of the time knew it too. They tanked regular season games twice because they were so terrified of Jokic getting torched by Harden in the high pick and roll.

I hope this is just a lame joke...

[One_and_Done]

Well KD isn't 6-10 anyway, so you're right about something at least. I actually agree KD doesn't have a top 10 peak, but neither does Jokic.

Ben Taylor, a stat junkie, even had Jokic over KD by 1 spot in his 2021 rankings with the qualifier that if KD was still at his peak he'd be #1 over Jokic at #3, and Giannis and Curry at the top spots.

[70sFan]

Well KD isn't 6-10 anyway, so you're right about something at least.

He's slightly below that, but that's not the point of this conversation.

Ben Taylor, a stat junkie, even had Jokic over KD by 1 spot in his 2021 rankings with the qualifier that if KD was still at his peak he'd be #1 over Jokic at #3, and Giannis and Curry at the top spots.

Yeah, but Jokic improved very noticeably since 2021. I doubt he'd agree with you anymore, you can ask him.

[One_and_Done]

1) KDs real height is probably over 7 ft tall
2) The point is your claim Jokic 'surpassed peak KD 3 years ago' is patently ridiculous, because even a stat obsessed analyst liks Ben Taylor, who is going to be the most pro-Jokic advocate around, had peak KD over peak Jokic only 2 years ago. Whether he's shifted on current Jokic is sort of besides the point.

[70sFan]

1) KDs real height is probably over 7 ft tall

You don't believe that, do you? Most "7 footers" in the league aren't really 7 feet without the shoes and KD is shorter than them. Jokic himself isn't 7 footer and Durant is shorter than him.

2) The point is your claim Jokic 'surpassed peak KD 3 years ago' is patently ridiculous, because even a stat obsessed analyst liks Ben Taylor, who is going to be the most pro-Jokic advocate around, had peak KD over peak Jokic only 2 years ago. Whether he's shifted on current Jokic is sort of besides the point.

1. Ben isn't really "stat obsessed", he made way more film analysis than anyone on this board. I also don't see any reason to believe why Ben "is going to be the most pro-Jokic advocate around".
2. Ben didn't mention that he'd have KD ahead of Jokic if healthy in 2021 video, I just rewatched it. He also said that the ranges for KD is 1 to 6, while for Jokic is 1 to 5 and that he can comfortably put Jokic at the number 1 spot if he evaluates him as a positive defender (which he would now).

Even if you disagree that 2021 Jokic was better than peak KD, as I said previously, Jokic improved a ton from 2021 to now, while KD has his peak way behind him at this point.

[One_and_Done]

Taylor may not be quite that explicit, but he notes KD isn't as good as he used to be post achilles, noting worse ability as a penetrator and on D, then says his high end evaluation of this non-peak KD would be #1.

His evaluation of Jokic could be cut and paste into 2023, except for the playoff D concerns, and I don't really think Jokic is much different; only his circumstances are.

We disagree at any rate, but the idea you advanced that Jokic had overtaken Durant's peak 3 years ago is clearly a fringe view.