Prime Offense only: Kareem vs Oscar

[Cavsfansince84]

Just want to point out that that graph being referenced is for highest nba salary, not avg nba salary which is why it spikes so hard in 97/98 when MJ was getting $40m per year. Having said that, I think the average nba team had more talent in the mid 60's than in the mid 70's when the number of pro teams had gone from 9 to 25 within a few years. The only big jump in talent level was from the early 50's to the early 60's imo.

[70sFan]

Your own graph says players earned 4 times more in 1970 compared to 1960. You're making my argument for me at this stage. Salaries continued to go up over time; that's the point. As they do more money and time goes into the sport, more intrastructure to develop kids at a young age. More preople entering the pool of potential at a young age.

"My own" graph shows a slow, linear increase of average salary throughout the 1960s that didn't start to go rapidly higher until the 1990s. This doesn't show us that the league made a quantum leap between the 1960s and 1970s like you try to sell. You specifically picked two outlier years to make your point, but when we compare mid-60s the gap isn't nearly as big.

The black kids who grew up watching Oscar play, and were inspured to play like him, didn't exist in 1960 because 10 years earlier there was no Oscar, or any black players,

Black players existed and were famous before the NBA was created. Black people played basketball way before 1950. Don't try to create your imaginary world.

and trying to make a career playing basketball was dumb because per your own graph players didn't make nearly as much in 1950 evem if you could somehow make it.

Yes, but what happened in 1950 has little to do with how the league looked like in 1965.

[70sFan]

Just want to point out that that graph being referenced is for highest nba salary, not avg nba salary which is why it spikes so hard in 97/98 when MJ was getting $40m per year.

It seems that I am dumb and can't read graphs I share. It makes a lot of sense now.

[tsherkin]

Just want to point out that that graph being referenced is for highest nba salary, not avg nba salary which is why it spikes so hard in 97/98 when MJ was getting $40m per year.

It seems that I am dumb and can't read graphs I share. It makes a lot of sense now.

Don't worry. At last, I can feel better for looking at FTr+ instead of TS+ in the other thread

[ty 4191]

At the moment, for me, his one goes to Oscar, and I don't see it as particularly close.

1. League quality/depth circa 1965 (9 teams) vs. 1975 (18 teams) is a very legitimate point, which has been dismissed (as always), by certain parties here, who seem to have an ongoing agenda....

Why do we/should we believe (and, whom here believes) that NBA scouting, recruitment, players development, and the overall effective talent pool was able to keep up with the league expanding by 100% in 10 years?

It's certainly worth an in depth historical dive and discussion, by people far, far more erudite and experienced about NBA history than myself...(cue 70s Fan, et all!).

In any case, on a separate point re: prime Kareem vs. Oscar, offensively, here's this fantastic work/project conducted by one of our members:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZKyz688S74yyo8Dy4T5vuAkIXZggKJK6QdiUnQqSx8/edit#gid=266732662

Please see: "on average" tab in that document; Oscar is (just barely) second all time in career TS Added (career). Note: This includes his significant post prime time (roughly, 70'-71' through 73'-74', when he looked to be a shell of himself.

Sidebar question: Did Oscar have any significant injuries or ailments after 1969-1970, or, was he simply ancient for that era (which, he was). Any other insights on the (ostensible) precipitous drop-off would be greatly appreciated. (Aside from the obvious, of course; KAJ was now on his team and he didn't have to do EVERYTHING, perhaps, for the first time in his career)..

2. To expand on this volume + efficiency primes discussion for Kareem vs. Oscar (the Google Sheet) for the purposes of this discussion, I decided to run TS Added Per 82 Games for player primes. (And, someone please correct me if I used improper/incorrect years for players listed; I eyeballed the numbers and tried to isolate each's respective best stretches in this metric):

Oscar (1960-1961 through 1967-1968, 604 games): +373 TS Added
Kareem (71'-80', 773 games): +322 TS Added

Selected others, for comparison's sake:

Jordan: (88'-97'- Note, excludes 17 games in 1994-1995, 649 games): +238
Chamberlain (61'-68', 634 games): +323
Dantley: (80'-87', 542 games): +339
Durant: (10'-19', 695 games): +303
Curry: (15'-23', 541 games): +304
Gilmore: (78'-85', 603 games): +301
Barkley: (86'-93', 604 games): +322
LeBron: (10'-18', 671 games): +250
Shaq: (94'-03', 661 games): +229
West: (64'-71', 546 games): +319
Reggie Miller: (90'-98', 726 games): +257
Harden: (12'-20', 675 games): +274

Any other suggestions welcomes. Thoughts, everyone?

My initial thought is that Oscar was a transcendent scorer, volume + efficiency. Throw in 10.5 assists/game for the entire decade of the 1960's- with the much more stringent assist rules (!)- and he's clearly a top 10 player all time, IMO.

Assist/Game Leaders, 1961-1969 (Min 15,000 MP):
1. Robertson: 10.5
2. Rodgers: 8.3
3. Wilkens: 5.8
4. West: 5.7
5. Guerin: 5.1
6. KC Jones: 4.8
7. Chamberlain: 4.7
8. Russell: 4.7
9. Baylor: 4.4
10. Greer: 4.3

Contrast that with prime Magic Johnson's separation from the top 10 average during his prime.

1980-1991 (Assists/Game, 20,000 MP):
1. Magic: 11.4
2. Isaiah: 9.7
3. Norm Nixon: 8.4
4. Cheeks: 7.2
5. Lever: 6.8
6. Theus: 6.4
7. Floyd: 6.3
8. Bird: 6.3
9. Harper: 6.2
10. Rickey Green: 6.1