’94 Hakeem Olajuwon vs ’23 Nikola Jokic

[fanofthegreats]

Clearly Jokic to me. Hakeem’s defense makes it an interesting comparison.

[Colbinii]

In the current NBA?

Clearly Jokic.

In 1994? It's close.

[thekdog34]

For the guys putting him above Hakeem, do you put him above any other great centers? (Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt)

[VanWest82]

I refuse to believe I just saw someone say “the Suns had a #1 pick” in trying to justify that team

Why? It's factual and was presented as a tertiary reason why they were good. As disappointing as you might think he is, Ayton still averaged an efficient 18 and 10 and commanded a rookie max extention on the open market. He's a good player. It would seem you're willing say whatever just to take a cheap shot. Doesn't say much about your credibility.

[VanWest82]

The other thing that's underrated about the Denver playoff run was how varied their opponents were. Suns were an offensive juggernaut. Lakers were a defensive juggernaut. Heat were just a super well coached, weird janky team playing janky zone who slowed you down and mucked up what you're doing on both ends. This is what's so great (or used to be great) about NBA. Match ups matter, and so when you see a team take a hot knife through a bunch of different playing styles and opposing superstars it represents real validation when they win. And they didn't have to team up and collude and back room deal to make it happen. There's real greatness in what they did.

94 Rockets probably have the most impressive run in beating quality opponents than anyone. They beat prime and still young Stockton and Malone Jazz, prime Barkley and KJ Suns, mvp Robinson Spurs and young but star Shaq and Penny.

Like I said earlier itt, I would go with Hakeem. His run was super impressive. I was mainly pushing back against the notion that Jokic's run was much less impressive.

[One_and_Done]

For the guys putting him above Hakeem, do you put him above any other great centers? (Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt)

Above Wilt & Russell certainly.

[VanWest82]

I refuse to believe I just saw someone say “the Suns had a #1 pick” in trying to justify that team

I didn't even have to search to find who you were talking about. That's why VanWest is on my ignore list.

And you're not relevant enough to be on any list. I wouldn't even bother responding but you decided to call me out by name. Maybe stick to Lebron topics in the future. You don't seem to bring much to table otherwise.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I refuse to believe I just saw someone say “the Suns had a #1 pick” in trying to justify that team

Why? It's factual and was presented as a tertiary reason why they were good. As disappointing as you might think he is, Ayton still averaged an efficient 18 and 10 and commanded a rookie max extention on the open market. He's a good player. It would seem you're willing say whatever just to take a cheap shot. Doesn't say much about your credibility.

You aren’t a real human being if you don’t understand why the Suns are desperately trying to trade him lol

Ayton has had good seasons where he’s a very good two way player this was not one of them if you pay attention to basketball

[VanWest82]

I refuse to believe I just saw someone say “the Suns had a #1 pick” in trying to justify that team

Why? It's factual and was presented as a tertiary reason why they were good. As disappointing as you might think he is, Ayton still averaged an efficient 18 and 10 and commanded a rookie max extention on the open market. He's a good player. It would seem you're willing say whatever just to take a cheap shot. Doesn't say much about your credibility.

You aren’t a real human being if you don’t understand why the Suns are desperately trying to trade him lol

Ayton has had good seasons where he’s a very good two way player this was not one of them if you pay attention to basketball

He struggled mightily vs. Jokic in the playoffs. He was also ranked in the 74th percentile per EPM. Not that stats are perfect but I generally trust that one to not be way off. Suns are trying to trade him because he's not worth his contract, and because there are match ups where he struggles. He's still an overall good player. You're overselling it. Wolves are probably trying to trade KAT but that doesn't mean he outright sucks.

[MyUniBroDavis]

[gfycat][/gfycat]

Why? It's factual and was presented as a tertiary reason why they were good. As disappointing as you might think he is, Ayton still averaged an efficient 18 and 10 and commanded a rookie max extention on the open market. He's a good player. It would seem you're willing say whatever just to take a cheap shot. Doesn't say much about your credibility.

You aren’t a real human being if you don’t understand why the Suns are desperately trying to trade him lol

Ayton has had good seasons where he’s a very good two way player this was not one of them if you pay attention to basketball

He struggled mightily vs. Jokic in the playoffs. He was also ranked in the 74th percentile per EPM. Not that stats are perfect but I generally trust that one to not be way off. Suns are trying to trade him because he's not worth his contract, and because there are match ups where he struggles. He's still an overall good player. You're overselling it. Wolves are probably trying to trade KAT but that doesn't mean he outright sucks.

Ok you are just being misleading on purpose now lmao. His EPM to anyone reading this post, is +0.4.

75th percentile sounds impressive untill you realize that’s out of the 497 players in the nba.

Positions tend to be a bit weird in all in one composites too, so to be clear, he’s listed as 31st among players listed at Center

Everyone knows he can be good but this was not one of those years and it was because bro was literally feuding with his coach.

[VanWest82]

[gfycat][/gfycat]

You aren’t a real human being if you don’t understand why the Suns are desperately trying to trade him lol

Ayton has had good seasons where he’s a very good two way player this was not one of them if you pay attention to basketball

He struggled mightily vs. Jokic in the playoffs. He was also ranked in the 74th percentile per EPM. Not that stats are perfect but I generally trust that one to not be way off. Suns are trying to trade him because he's not worth his contract, and because there are match ups where he struggles. He's still an overall good player. You're overselling it. Wolves are probably trying to trade KAT but that doesn't mean he outright sucks.

Ok you are just being misleading on purpose now lmao. His EPM to anyone reading this post, is +0.4.

75th percentile sounds impressive untill you realize that’s out of the 497 players. Positions tend to be a bit weird in all in one composites too, so to be clear, he’s listed as 31st among players listed at Center

Bro literally is feuding with his coach, everyone knows he can be good and can be a two way force this was not one of those years

+0.4 is still positive. You're painting him as a negative. Who's being misleading here? BTW if we take mins into consideration he's 4.6 estimated wins contributed which is 79th percentile.

[MyUniBroDavis]

[gfycat][/gfycat]

He struggled mightily vs. Jokic in the playoffs. He was also ranked in the 74th percentile per EPM. Not that stats are perfect but I generally trust that one to not be way off. Suns are trying to trade him because he's not worth his contract, and because there are match ups where he struggles. He's still an overall good player. You're overselling it. Wolves are probably trying to trade KAT but that doesn't mean he outright sucks.

Ok you are just being misleading on purpose now lmao. His EPM to anyone reading this post, is +0.4.

75th percentile sounds impressive untill you realize that’s out of the 497 players. Positions tend to be a bit weird in all in one composites too, so to be clear, he’s listed as 31st among players listed at Center

Bro literally is feuding with his coach, everyone knows he can be good and can be a two way force this was not one of those years

+0.4 is still positive. You're painting him as a negative. Who's being misleading here? BTW if we take mins into consideration he's 4.6 estimated wins contributed which is 79th percentile.

Never called him a negative, pointing him out as a key contributor is stupid when he’s barely a positive. I’m pretty sure LEBRON overtook EPM as the best all in one with the role tweaks and he’s a negative there anyways,

But I want everyone to think critically for a second

Each nba team has 13 players depending on two way contracts and stuff like the at usually, and a bunch of cut or two way players

If the 497 players listed, what does it mean to be a 75th percentile guy on that

Or to go beyond that, how much more clear does it get when you see this corresponds to a ranking of 31st in his position? (32nd actually)

Just think critically man lmao, this shouldn’t be hard to understand

[VanWest82]

[gfycat][/gfycat]

Ok you are just being misleading on purpose now lmao. His EPM to anyone reading this post, is +0.4.

75th percentile sounds impressive untill you realize that’s out of the 497 players. Positions tend to be a bit weird in all in one composites too, so to be clear, he’s listed as 31st among players listed at Center

Bro literally is feuding with his coach, everyone knows he can be good and can be a two way force this was not one of those years

+0.4 is still positive. You're painting him as a negative. Who's being misleading here? BTW if we take mins into consideration he's 4.6 estimated wins contributed which is 79th percentile.

Never called him a negative, pointing him out as a key contributor is stupid when he’s barely a positive. I’m pretty sure LEBRON overtook EPM as the best all in one with the role tweaks and he’s a negative there anyways,

But I want everyone to think critically for a second

Each nba team has 13 players depending on two way contracts and stuff like the at usually, and a bunch of cut or two way players

If the 497 players listed, what does it mean to be a 75th percentile guy on that

Or to go beyond that, how much more clear does it get when you see this corresponds to a ranking of 31st in his position?

Just think critically man lmao

He was 76th in BPM (85th percentile). 81st in VORP (84th). He was a high usage guy. He was their best rebounder and screener. He challenged the most shots on the team and held shooters to below their average. The notion that Ayton wasn't a key contributor is ridiculous.

[MyUniBroDavis]

+0.4 is still positive. You're painting him as a negative. Who's being misleading here? BTW if we take mins into consideration he's 4.6 estimated wins contributed which is 79th percentile.

Never called him a negative, pointing him out as a key contributor is stupid when he’s barely a positive. I’m pretty sure LEBRON overtook EPM as the best all in one with the role tweaks and he’s a negative there anyways,

But I want everyone to think critically for a second

Each nba team has 13 players depending on two way contracts and stuff like the at usually, and a bunch of cut or two way players

If the 497 players listed, what does it mean to be a 75th percentile guy on that

Or to go beyond that, how much more clear does it get when you see this corresponds to a ranking of 31st in his position?

Just think critically man lmao

He was 76th in BPM (85th percentile). 81st in VORP (84th). He was a high usage guy. He was their best rebounder and screener. He challenged the most shots on the team and held shooters to below their average. The notion that Ayton wasn't a key contributor is ridiculous.

Pointing out worse composite all in one stats without an impact component does nothing for your argument lmfao.

Do you seriously not understand why in the context of being a third reason mentioned for a team being great, being in the 74th percentile in a list that includes 497 players isn’t impressive in the context of a league with 30 teams that usually have a 7-8 man rotation in the playoffs, and 32nd in your position because all in one metrics tend to have issues with positions because of how box score stats are measured position less for most of them? Not to mention he’s a flat out negative in LEBRON, and of the all in ones EPM and LEBRON are the only good ones

The fact that a center challenges the most shots on the team shouldn’t be even remotely a surprise to anyone with any understanding of basketball.


Tracking data in terms of -DFG is only really even remotely useful when it comes to interior defense and centers will rank better than other positions for obvious reasons. Even then it has some flaws, but the general overall data is near useless. In interior defense, Where does Ayton rank among centers?

27th, that’s decent, nothing special obviously. He is 28th in contests, despite being 15th in minutes, so that’s not particularly good.

Maybe he’s better right at the rim, that’s where tracking data is even better, where would he rank among centers then?

43rd, 35th in contests.

So yeah idk why you brought up tracking data unless you thought it was impressive a center contested more shots in a game than like Chris Paul did lol

I’m assuming you don’t understand how all in ones are calculated, I’m curious if you could guess what he’s rankings in the raw RAPM impact portion of it for EPM and LEBRON.


It’s like dumb that I’m literally guiding you towards trying to understand why 74th percentile isn’t nearly as impressive as you think it is in the context of using it as some sort of gotcha that he is a valid third reason why a team is really good or something and you still can’t get it

[70sFan]

I'm not following your logic. Are you arguing that 70s guys stopped doing blow in the playoffs and therefore it's similar to today teams sandbagging RS?

No, I am arguing that the parity was always seen as the weakness of the league... until it happened now and everybody says how strong the league is. No, we don't have any all-time teams in the league right now and it's not a matter of teams not caring about the RS.

Teams with a history of very strong postseason play outplaying their record and teams getting remade in the middle of the season to become much stronger teams need to be evaluated a little differently.

Yes, a little differently. That's why I don't evaluate Heat and Lakers as 8th seed - otherwise I wouldn't have any discussion with you.

Interesting that the games Suns won were games CP didn't play. I agree they were thin but they were also the only team to take two from the Nuggets all playoffs.

It's circular logic - they did the best against the Nuggets, who you think are amazing, therefore they had to be great themselves.

Good depth or not, it's not easy beating teams with two superstars and third #1 overall pick max guy.

Ayton is nothing more than slightly above average starter for his position and he missed the last game, forcing the Suns to play with no real bigman.

This team is nothing to rave about and without Booker heroics they would have got blown out in 4 games.

As for Lakers, they were probably the second best team in the playoffs

Based on what? They beat injured Grizzlies team missing 2 starting players. Then they beat Warriors who were nothing special throughout the whole season.

What makes them better than the teams from EC?

and old, injured Lebron was still able to average an efficient 25/10/6 while playing surprisingly good defense.

Yes, LeBron played great in the WCF (though his numbers are inflated by one great game), but he's not the prime LeBron anymore and he's not in consideration for the best player in the league.

AD looked like the best defensive player on the planet until Jokic got him. And unlike Suns, Lakers actually were pretty deep.

If you think that this Lakers team was super impressive, then it shows how underwhelming the top end was this year among teams.

Per 100 playoffs, 23 vs 01:

Murray: 33.2 pts, 9.0 ast, 3.2 tov, +3 rTS
Kobe: 35.4 pts, 7.3 ast, 3.8 tov, +5 rTS

Jokic: 38.7 pts, 12.2 ast, 4.5 tov, +8 rTS
Shaq: 37.6 pts, 3.9 ast, 4.4 tov, +6 rTS

You could certainly make the argument that Kobe > Murray, but Jokic > Shaq is an easier one. Again, this is just offense.

Let's forget about minutes played, faced competition and league environment. For example, the number of players with 35+ pts per100:

2001: 6
2023: 15

[migya]

The other thing that's underrated about the Denver playoff run was how varied their opponents were. Suns were an offensive juggernaut. Lakers were a defensive juggernaut. Heat were just a super well coached, weird janky team playing janky zone who slowed you down and mucked up what you're doing on both ends. This is what's so great (or used to be great) about NBA. Match ups matter, and so when you see a team take a hot knife through a bunch of different playing styles and opposing superstars it represents real validation when they win. And they didn't have to team up and collude and back room deal to make it happen. There's real greatness in what they did.

94 Rockets probably have the most impressive run in beating quality opponents than anyone. They beat prime and still young Stockton and Malone Jazz, prime Barkley and KJ Suns, mvp Robinson Spurs and young but star Shaq and Penny.

Like I said earlier itt, I would go with Hakeem. His run was super impressive. I was mainly pushing back against the notion that Jokic's run was much less impressive.

Recently watched Olajuwon in 94 playoffs and his offense was elite, scoring and passing. He is not behind any other center.

[70sFan]

94 Rockets probably have the most impressive run in beating quality opponents than anyone. They beat prime and still young Stockton and Malone Jazz, prime Barkley and KJ Suns, mvp Robinson Spurs and young but star Shaq and Penny.

Like I said earlier itt, I would go with Hakeem. His run was super impressive. I was mainly pushing back against the notion that Jokic's run was much less impressive.

Recently watched Olajuwon in 94 playoffs and his offense was elite, scoring and passing. He is not behind any other center.

If you just watched 1994 Hakeem and concluded that his passing is not behind Jokic, then I suggest trying to watch Jokic now...

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'm not following your logic. Are you arguing that 70s guys stopped doing blow in the playoffs and therefore it's similar to today teams sandbagging RS?

No, I am arguing that the parity was always seen as the weakness of the league... until it happened now and everybody says how strong the league is. No, we don't have any all-time teams in the league right now and it's not a matter of teams not caring about the RS.

Teams with a history of very strong postseason play outplaying their record and teams getting remade in the middle of the season to become much stronger teams need to be evaluated a little differently.

Yes, a little differently. That's why I don't evaluate Heat and Lakers as 8th seed - otherwise I wouldn't have any discussion with you.

Interesting that the games Suns won were games CP didn't play. I agree they were thin but they were also the only team to take two from the Nuggets all playoffs.

It's circular logic - they did the best against the Nuggets, who you think are amazing, therefore they had to be great themselves.

Good depth or not, it's not easy beating teams with two superstars and third #1 overall pick max guy.

Ayton is nothing more than slightly above average starter for his position and he missed the last game, forcing the Suns to play with no real bigman.

This team is nothing to rave about and without Booker heroics they would have got blown out in 4 games.

As for Lakers, they were probably the second best team in the playoffs

Based on what? They beat injured Grizzlies team missing 2 starting players. Then they beat Warriors who were nothing special throughout the whole season.

What makes them better than the teams from EC?

and old, injured Lebron was still able to average an efficient 25/10/6 while playing surprisingly good defense.

Yes, LeBron played great in the WCF (though his numbers are inflated by one great game), but he's not the prime LeBron anymore and he's not in consideration for the best player in the league.

AD looked like the best defensive player on the planet until Jokic got him. And unlike Suns, Lakers actually were pretty deep.

If you think that this Lakers team was super impressive, then it shows how underwhelming the top end was this year among teams.

Per 100 playoffs, 23 vs 01:

Murray: 33.2 pts, 9.0 ast, 3.2 tov, +3 rTS
Kobe: 35.4 pts, 7.3 ast, 3.8 tov, +5 rTS

Jokic: 38.7 pts, 12.2 ast, 4.5 tov, +8 rTS
Shaq: 37.6 pts, 3.9 ast, 4.4 tov, +6 rTS

You could certainly make the argument that Kobe > Murray, but Jokic > Shaq is an easier one. Again, this is just offense.

Let's forget about minutes played, faced competition and league environment. For example, the number of players with 35+ pts per100:

2001: 6
2023: 15

People compare pace too much like it’s the only thing that matters when a large part of offensive progression I guess as they call it sometimes isn’t as much 3>2 as much as opening up things for star players to operate and that goes beyond just standing along the perimeter

With the Lakers, I do think Lakers would have beaten the heat, although not sure if they beat the Celtics (although I will say it’s hard because the heat we’re living off of going from being horrible from three in the RS to being crazy from three throughout their run even making some ridiculous ones and fell off again in the finals

The thing is, the Lakers were a pretty flawed offensive team because brons injury basically made him way less of a threat in transition where he’d have to pull out a lot and much worse at creating his own shot in general, and AD had a foot issue too that hadn’t healed when they checked it a few weeks before the playoffs that effected his ability to create his own shot, so our best option in the halfcourt much of the time was Reaves lmao

Defensively we were great but there were holes, in the sense that we would throw Vando on their best player, they’d realize he doesn’t know how to avoid a ball screen and then we’d throw Dennis out on them, and if that didn’t work it’s basically checkmate because we didn’t actual have a single player outside of that able to guard really good guards, and Dennis is too smal to guard murray

Lonnie is kind of horrible if he’s not chasing guys off ball, Reaves is good and actually defended murray more in game 4 iirc an that worked well but we needed him on offense and him running around on D hurts that like when we put him on klay, tbjr might have been fine but he was out the rotation, bron has one foot, beasley isn’t serious, etc

So like when a team is 100% riding their defense and you kind of exploit the hole they’re gonna crumble. Think it was unlucky they didn’t push it to 5 or 6, but yeah the way they played it, Lakers weren’t gonna win that.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Like I said earlier itt, I would go with Hakeem. His run was super impressive. I was mainly pushing back against the notion that Jokic's run was much less impressive.

Recently watched Olajuwon in 94 playoffs and his offense was elite, scoring and passing. He is not behind any other center.

If you just watched 1994 Hakeem and concluded that his passing is not behind Jokic, then I suggest trying to watch Jokic now...

I assume he meant in general

Like if someone said

“I saw highlights of peak bron, his defense, scoring, passing were so good man. No ones better than him”

I wouldn’t conclude that person thinks bron > Hakeem on defense know what I mean

[70sFan]

Recently watched Olajuwon in 94 playoffs and his offense was elite, scoring and passing. He is not behind any other center.

If you just watched 1994 Hakeem and concluded that his passing is not behind Jokic, then I suggest trying to watch Jokic now...

I assume he meant in general

Like if someone said

“I saw highlights of peak bron, his defense, scoring, passing were so good man. No ones better than him”

I wouldn’t conclude that person thinks bron > Hakeem on defense know what I mean

In this case, he only mentioned offensive skills - the skills Jokic is better than him at.