**The Official Karl-Anthony Towns Thread: Part Two**

[Baseline81]

If you want to play that game, Beal has helped the Wizards past the first round too....three times in fact. He wasn't the best player on any of those teams (those were the good Wall years), but that's how he got paid.

That actually makes it worse for Towns as he would be the only one on the list to not reach the second round. And yes, you can say a part of that is because of the team surrounding him. I would counter and point that his play hasn't exactly been stellar either.

[shrink]

I also never stated KAT can't be productive. There is, however, a huge difference between being productive and being worth your contract. So for arguments sake let me ask you; what level of production do you expect from a supermax player? You can use your bare minimum if you like

Let's take a look at who is worth their contract, looking at the most expensive contracts based on average annual value:
1) Dame 60,887,020
2) Devon Booker 56,056,000
3) KAT 56,056,000
4) Jokic 54,404,000
5) Steph 53,838,416
6) Embiid 53,528,000
7) Beal 50,203,930
8) Jimmy Buckets 48,798,677
9) LeBron 48,566,687
10) KD 48,554,830

I'm not sure how you want to analyze these, but only 4 have been a part of a championship team and only one more has been in the finals. We have to go to #4 before we find an NBA Champion.

So, what makes a player "worth" their contract? IMO, at this time, only Jokic is really worth it. I don't object to paying Steph and Lebron what they are currently making, because I think they were underpaid at their peak.

Looking forward to the discussion.

Those I have underlined have proven themselves in the regular season and playoffs -- helping their teams past the first round. Other than showing loyalty, what has Towns and Beal done to deserve those contracts? Yes, I understand they have been all-stars, however, there are levels to this.

This shows why you can’t put team success as the demand for individual valuation.

Look at Embiid. You chose to underline players who were on teams that avoided first round exits. If you had chosen to draw your line in the sand at second round exits, then Embiid wouldn’t be underlined. I would hope you’d admit that the guy that was in the top two in MVP voting the last three years is worth his contract. And hey - Dame gets an underline, and his team hasn’t even made the playoffs the last two years!

All three guys are great players. All three are pulling in the right direction to help their team win. But the other 14 players, the coach, and the organization all influence whether a TEAM wins or loses.

[shangrila]

I also never stated KAT can't be productive. There is, however, a huge difference between being productive and being worth your contract. So for arguments sake let me ask you; what level of production do you expect from a supermax player? You can use your bare minimum if you like

Let's take a look at who is worth their contract, looking at the most expensive contracts based on average annual value:
1) Dame 60,887,020
2) Devon Booker 56,056,000
3) KAT 56,056,000
4) Jokic 54,404,000
5) Steph 53,838,416
6) Embiid 53,528,000
7) Beal 50,203,930
8) Jimmy Buckets 48,798,677
9) LeBron 48,566,687
10) KD 48,554,830

I'm not sure how you want to analyze these, but only 4 have been a part of a championship team and only one more has been in the finals. We have to go to #4 before we find an NBA Champion.

So, what makes a player "worth" their contract? IMO, at this time, only Jokic is really worth it. I don't object to paying Steph and Lebron what they are currently making, because I think they were underpaid at their peak.

Looking forward to the discussion.

So is anyone actually willing to quantify what production they expect from a supermax player?

If not it seems disingenuous to push an argument that KAT is "worth" his contract moving forward (not directed solely at you frankenwolf).

[urinesane]

I also never stated KAT can't be productive. There is, however, a huge difference between being productive and being worth your contract. So for arguments sake let me ask you; what level of production do you expect from a supermax player? You can use your bare minimum if you like

Let's take a look at who is worth their contract, looking at the most expensive contracts based on average annual value:
1) Dame 60,887,020
2) Devon Booker 56,056,000
3) KAT 56,056,000
4) Jokic 54,404,000
5) Steph 53,838,416
6) Embiid 53,528,000
7) Beal 50,203,930
8) Jimmy Buckets 48,798,677
9) LeBron 48,566,687
10) KD 48,554,830

I'm not sure how you want to analyze these, but only 4 have been a part of a championship team and only one more has been in the finals. We have to go to #4 before we find an NBA Champion.

So, what makes a player "worth" their contract? IMO, at this time, only Jokic is really worth it. I don't object to paying Steph and Lebron what they are currently making, because I think they were underpaid at their peak.

Looking forward to the discussion.

So is anyone actually willing to quantify what production they expect from a supermax player?

If not it seems disingenuous to push an argument that KAT is "worth" his contract moving forward (not directed solely at you frankenwolf).

Why do our expectations matter? We see a sliver of the whole picture and any expectations we have are based on extremely limited info. As stated, production is not the sole factor in giving these contracts. This is a business and businesses want to make money, if their financial success were based solely on production many teams would no longer exist (including the one we are talking about).

[frankenwolf]

So is anyone actually willing to quantify what production they expect from a supermax player?

If not it seems disingenuous to push an argument that KAT is "worth" his contract moving forward (not directed solely at you frankenwolf).

Why do our expectations matter? We see a sliver of the whole picture and any expectations we have are based on extremely limited info. As stated, production is not the sole factor in giving these contracts. This is a business and businesses want to make money, if their financial success were based solely on production many teams would no longer exist (including the one we are talking about).

Shangrila, thanks. You are right in that without rules, it is impossible to quantify worth.

Urinesane, our expectations matter as it was put forth what we thought a supermax contract stipulations should be. Further upthread, someone postulated that it is more than on court production and I believe you said that the team will pay out what the player is worth to them. So, KAT's contract is worth it to the Wolves and LeBrons is worth it to the Lakers. Two entirely different players, yet they both got the super max contracts.

Who is the GOAT and how do you quantify that? Rings? Nice easy decision there, Bill Russell. What about changing the game? Wilt Chamberlain had a major change in the game as the NBA changed the floor layout because of him. MJ was the most dominant player of his time. Is he the GOAT? Perception is in the eyes of the beholder.

[SO_MONEY]

I also never stated KAT can't be productive. There is, however, a huge difference between being productive and being worth your contract. So for arguments sake let me ask you; what level of production do you expect from a supermax player? You can use your bare minimum if you like

Let's take a look at who is worth their contract, looking at the most expensive contracts based on average annual value:
1) Dame 60,887,020
2) Devon Booker 56,056,000
3) KAT 56,056,000
4) Jokic 54,404,000
5) Steph 53,838,416
6) Embiid 53,528,000
7) Beal 50,203,930
8) Jimmy Buckets 48,798,677
9) LeBron 48,566,687
10) KD 48,554,830

I'm not sure how you want to analyze these, but only 4 have been a part of a championship team and only one more has been in the finals. We have to go to #4 before we find an NBA Champion.

So, what makes a player "worth" their contract? IMO, at this time, only Jokic is really worth it. I don't object to paying Steph and Lebron what they are currently making, because I think they were underpaid at their peak.

Looking forward to the discussion.

So is anyone actually willing to quantify what production they expect from a supermax player?

If not it seems disingenuous to push an argument that KAT is "worth" his contract moving forward (not directed solely at you frankenwolf).

I think at bare minimum it would require a player not repeatedly disappear when you need them the most. That is the minimum level of production.

[shrink]

I think at bare minimum it would require a player not repeatedly disappear when you need them the most. That is the minimum level of production.

You push this one-liner narrative a lot. Maybe it makes you feel better.

For me, I seem to recall Towns coming back from injury this season when there was a great deal of doubt whether we’d make the playoffs. Didn’t he hit game-winners immediately? And he was particularly good the final games of the season, when we needed to go 3-0 to get the eighth seed. He was 14-5-22 against BRK, 8-8-22 against SA, and 8-2-30 against NOP. Then in the play-in, he was the best player on the court against the Lakers when Ant “disappeared” and couldn’t be stopped by the small OKC squad to get us in the playoffs. Were those games we “didn’t need him most?”

The first round against DEN was not as bad as you probably remember it either. Everyone stunk in the first game in Denver against a rested Nuggets team, but after that he was just fine. The Nuggets were the better team, and with Naz and Jaden out, it probably didn’t matter how good Towns could be to upset them in Round 1.

The fact that you ignore these games, or whatever Towns does is never enough, probably says more about you than it does about Towns. He did not “repeatedly disappear when we needed him most.”

[shrink]

Gobert gets this treatment as well.

If Gobert gets 13 rebounds and 18 points, some people will focus on when he missed 2 RB and 4 PTS in dunks.

[SO_MONEY]

I think at bare minimum it would require a player not repeatedly disappear when you need them the most. That is the minimum level of production.

You push this one-liner narrative a lot. Maybe it makes you feel better.

For me, I seem to recall Towns coming back from injury this season when there was a great deal of doubt whether we’d make the playoffs. Didn’t he hit game-winners immediately? And he was particularly good the final games of the season, when we needed to go 3-0 to get the eighth seed. He was 14-5-22 against BRK, 8-8-22 against SA, and 8-2-30 against NOP. Then in the play-in, he was the best player on the court against the Lakers when Ant “disappeared” and couldn’t be stopped by the small OKC squad to get us in the playoffs. Were those games we “didn’t need him most?”

The first round against DEN was not as bad as you probably remember it either. Everyone stunk in the first game in Denver against a rested Nuggets team, but after that he was just fine. The Nuggets were the better team, and with Naz and Jaden out, it probably didn’t matter how good Towns could be to upset them in Round 1.

The fact that you ignore these games, or whatever Towns does is never enough, probably says more about you than it does about Towns. He did not “repeatedly disappear when we needed him most.”

I think you broke down, yesterday? that it is impossible to itemize dollars per production, so all I got is humor, how else do you deal with a pattern of behavior by your highest paid player, behavior you have no control over? You have to laugh...just as I laugh at trying to rationalize it. The pattern is real and ongoing for his whole career, it is what it is. The few games he proformed don't undo that, they are not being ignored, but he should do well in almost all games, should, but doesn't. It is not blasphemous to admit it.

[shrink]

I think at bare minimum it would require a player not repeatedly disappear when you need them the most. That is the minimum level of production.

You push this one-liner narrative a lot. Maybe it makes you feel better.

For me, I seem to recall Towns coming back from injury this season when there was a great deal of doubt whether we’d make the playoffs. Didn’t he hit game-winners immediately? And he was particularly good the final games of the season, when we needed to go 3-0 to get the eighth seed. He was 14-5-22 against BRK, 8-8-22 against SA, and 8-2-30 against NOP. Then in the play-in, he was the best player on the court against the Lakers when Ant “disappeared” and couldn’t be stopped by the small OKC squad to get us in the playoffs. Were those games we “didn’t need him most?”

The first round against DEN was not as bad as you probably remember it either. Everyone stunk in the first game in Denver against a rested Nuggets team, but after that he was just fine. The Nuggets were the better team, and with Naz and Jaden out, it probably didn’t matter how good Towns could be to upset them in Round 1.

The fact that you ignore these games, or whatever Towns does is never enough, probably says more about you than it does about Towns. He did not “repeatedly disappear when we needed him most.”

I think you broke down, yesterday? that it is impossible to itemize dollars per production, so all I got is humor, how else do you deal with a pattern of behavior by your highest paid player, behavior you have no control over? You have to laugh...just as I laugh at trying to rationalize it. The pattern is real and ongoing for his whole career, it is what it is. The few games he proformed don't undo that, they are not being ignored, but he should do well in almost all games, should, but doesn't. It is not blasphemous to admit it.

If I talk about the past (Towns as a second option), haters dismiss it, because it’s the past.

If I talk about the present, haters dismiss that too, because it’s NOT the past!

You guys are impossible, creating impossible goals to justify your emotions. You’re So_Moany.

[SO_MONEY]

You push this one-liner narrative a lot. Maybe it makes you feel better.

For me, I seem to recall Towns coming back from injury this season when there was a great deal of doubt whether we’d make the playoffs. Didn’t he hit game-winners immediately? And he was particularly good the final games of the season, when we needed to go 3-0 to get the eighth seed. He was 14-5-22 against BRK, 8-8-22 against SA, and 8-2-30 against NOP. Then in the play-in, he was the best player on the court against the Lakers when Ant “disappeared” and couldn’t be stopped by the small OKC squad to get us in the playoffs. Were those games we “didn’t need him most?”

The first round against DEN was not as bad as you probably remember it either. Everyone stunk in the first game in Denver against a rested Nuggets team, but after that he was just fine. The Nuggets were the better team, and with Naz and Jaden out, it probably didn’t matter how good Towns could be to upset them in Round 1.

The fact that you ignore these games, or whatever Towns does is never enough, probably says more about you than it does about Towns. He did not “repeatedly disappear when we needed him most.”

I think you broke down, yesterday? that it is impossible to itemize dollars per production, so all I got is humor, how else do you deal with a pattern of behavior by your highest paid player, behavior you have no control over? You have to laugh...just as I laugh at trying to rationalize it. The pattern is real and ongoing for his whole career, it is what it is. The few games he proformed don't undo that, they are not being ignored, but he should do well in almost all games, should, but doesn't. It is not blasphemous to admit it.

If I talk about the past (Towns as a second option), haters dismiss it, because it’s the past.

If I talk about the present, haters dismiss that too, because it’s NOT the past!

You guys are impossible, creating impossible goals to justify your emotions. You’re So_Moany.

What?

Broke down as in you told a story... who is emotional?

C'mon man.

It is your story, you were right in coming to the conclusion intangibles get compensated. You can't calculate salary strictly by numbers.

[shrink]

I think you broke down, yesterday? that it is impossible to itemize dollars per production, so all I got is humor, how else do you deal with a pattern of behavior by your highest paid player, behavior you have no control over? You have to laugh...just as I laugh at trying to rationalize it. The pattern is real and ongoing for his whole career, it is what it is. The few games he proformed don't undo that, they are not being ignored, but he should do well in almost all games, should, but doesn't. It is not blasphemous to admit it.

If I talk about the past (Towns as a second option), haters dismiss it, because it’s the past.

If I talk about the present, haters dismiss that too, because it’s NOT the past!

You guys are impossible, creating impossible goals to justify your emotions. You’re So_Moany.

What?

Broke down as in you told a story... who is emotional?

C'mon man.

It is your story, you were right in coming to the conclusion intangibles get compensated. You can't calculate salary strictly by numbers.

Sorry, I thought you were saying I broke down “the numbers” from yesterday. The most recent games.

[shangrila]

Let's take a look at who is worth their contract, looking at the most expensive contracts based on average annual value:
1) Dame 60,887,020
2) Devon Booker 56,056,000
3) KAT 56,056,000
4) Jokic 54,404,000
5) Steph 53,838,416
6) Embiid 53,528,000
7) Beal 50,203,930
8) Jimmy Buckets 48,798,677
9) LeBron 48,566,687
10) KD 48,554,830

I'm not sure how you want to analyze these, but only 4 have been a part of a championship team and only one more has been in the finals. We have to go to #4 before we find an NBA Champion.

So, what makes a player "worth" their contract? IMO, at this time, only Jokic is really worth it. I don't object to paying Steph and Lebron what they are currently making, because I think they were underpaid at their peak.

Looking forward to the discussion.

So is anyone actually willing to quantify what production they expect from a supermax player?

If not it seems disingenuous to push an argument that KAT is "worth" his contract moving forward (not directed solely at you frankenwolf).

Why do our expectations matter? We see a sliver of the whole picture and any expectations we have are based on extremely limited info. As stated, production is not the sole factor in giving these contracts. This is a business and businesses want to make money, if their financial success were based solely on production many teams would no longer exist (including the one we are talking about).

So say that?

The fact that no one is willing to offer what they think a team should get from a supermax player is revealing at this point.

[Klomp]

Exactly, which goes back to the point that teams pay their players based on how they perform for their franchise. Not necessarily how others are performing for other franchises. Specifically when it comes to offering a max contract, it usually comes down to trying to keep your best talent. It doesn't mean that the player is an alpha star that can drag a roster full of G leaguers to the playoffs.

It's sort of like when people say a team had a soft schedule etc, the team can only play the teams they play. KAT can only be the best player on his team, it's not his fault if the franchise hasn't surrounded him with the right players.

I think this is a great way to put it.

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

[SO_MONEY]

So is anyone actually willing to quantify what production they expect from a supermax player?

If not it seems disingenuous to push an argument that KAT is "worth" his contract moving forward (not directed solely at you frankenwolf).

Why do our expectations matter? We see a sliver of the whole picture and any expectations we have are based on extremely limited info. As stated, production is not the sole factor in giving these contracts. This is a business and businesses want to make money, if their financial success were based solely on production many teams would no longer exist (including the one we are talking about).

So say that?

The fact that no one is willing to offer what they think a team should get from a supermax player is revealing at this point.

I did.

I gave the bare minimum, obviously it isn't the ceiling, but it is an absolute everyone should on.

[Klomp]

I mentioned elsewhere that KAT isn’t an alpha guy, but most years he had to be team leader because there weren’t other choices (Can you imagine Wiggins as team leader?!?). The media praises him because he has always gone and done full press sessions after so many losses, even though he clearly has put his foot in his mouth many times, and gotten roasted nationally for it.

But he seems to do so much better when someone else steps up to be the focus of the team, whether that was the year with Jimmy (even though Jimmy gets the credit, Towns played far far better), or last year’s fun team. The media focused on Ant, and PatBev loves to talk, but KAT was the best player last year as well.

The good news for us is that Ant looks like he can be the alpha on the court, and the media loves him. KAT could be one of the best #2’s in the whole NBA, and I think that role suits him better as well.

It's easy to let anything KAT says go in one ear and out the other. It can come off as empty platitudes.

HOWEVER, there's a superstar of a fellow Northwest Division franchise who is on the record saying he doesn't want to play with young players. Meanwhile, Towns is telling people he wants to be the vet to take pressure off the young guys. That's honestly so huge. That's something he learned from Garnett.

[deepestblue]

Run it back.

Knee-jerk moves in business are generally ill-advised.

Let's see what a whole season of a healthy Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns and Gobert can do.

I'm pretty optimistic.

[Guest84]

Thoughts on Coach Calipari's quote about Towns in the recent GQ article...

“I get on him about his defense,” says Calipari, who recently hosted Towns at his house after they attended a wedding. “And he’ll argue with me, The analytics say I’m really good defensively. I say, ‘****, I’m watching, and I think you can be even better.”

Is there any takeaways you can pull from this? Prob doesn't matter from our perspective, just curious about what everyone thinks.

https://www.gq.com/story/karl-anthony-towns-first-pitch-profile

[shrink]

Thoughts on Coach Calipari's quote about Towns in the recent GQ article...

“I get on him about his defense,” says Calipari, who recently hosted Towns at his house after they attended a wedding. “And he’ll argue with me, The analytics say I’m really good defensively. I say, ‘****, I’m watching, and I think you can be even better.”

Is there any takeaways you can pull from this? Prob doesn't matter from our perspective, just curious about what everyone thinks.

https://www.gq.com/story/karl-anthony-towns-first-pitch-profile

Both are right.

Eye-witness testimony is subjective and unreliable, which is why it is so commonly dismissed in court cases and police investigations. At the same time, while numbers don’t lie, but they can misrepresent, depending on the question you ask — especially for defensive metrics. I appreciate it when an expert inserts his opinion, but the truth probably lies somewhere between those two. By the numbers, Towns is pretty good defensively, but man … I think he could be so much better.


My other thought is that the people that read GQ are, at best, mostly casual NBA fans. The often repeated story on KAT is that he produces empty stats and sucks on defense, and most casual fans, that get their views from sages like Charles Barkley and Shaq, simply believe it. A writer that wants to sell a story to GQ for that audience is going to look around to find people to talk about that. It’s comforting and makes the reader feel smart. You wouldn’t see this question asked about a player that the general public has a different opinion on, like James Harden or Kyrie, who are far worse defensively than KAT.

Last thought. Towns continues to be tone deaf. Who is advising him to go do interviews in GQ? Is he still dating the Instagram women? Towns needs to stay out of the limelight and focus on basketball until he wins more. That’s going to change opinions of him far more than him going out and telling people he’s great.