Team fitness is a problem

[Ferry Avenue]

All of these points are unimportant though. The overarching point I'm alluding to is that no one on here knows what leadership in an NBA lockerroom really looks like.

Certainly we do. We saw it on the court when PJ Tucker exhorted Joel Embiid in the playoffs this year, for example. We heard Charles Barkley talk about it in the video above. It consists of nothing other than a certain kind of communication among people.

Perfect example of you taking 48 minutes of a game and conflating it into an entire team's locker room presence. What if PJ Tucker is bullying the **** out of Paul Reed or Jaden Springer in practice and its negatively affecting them? Is that leadership?

Speaking of PJ, where is he "exemplifying" for his teammates when he's honestly one of the worst starter, statistically, throughout the season.

Nobody knows what any particular team's locker room looks like, no, but we do know what leadership looks like, and we can certainly infer from the way players perform whether they'd have the requisite status and credibility in the eyes of their teammates to be considered leaders by them. Charles Barkley certainly wouldn't have responded to the same exhortation by Marc Iavaroni.

[GoSixersBro]

It's crazy to think Embiid isn't in shape. He's not Ben Simmons level endurance, but he's also 7'2 and carrying a heavy frame of muscle. And it's also everyone is different: some people can run forever and others can't.

All of these points are unimportant though. The overarching point I'm alluding to is that no one on here knows what leadership in an NBA lockerroom really looks like.

Fair point. And like many have suggested on this forum lately Embiid needs to be utilized less on offense. Every trip down can't start with him receiving the ball at the top of the key or elbow. It's predictable, stagnates ball/player movement, and is just so damn slow. I am so, so tired of watching 7'2 Kobe on so many possessions. And this ties back to fitness bc not many guys let alone centers can do this for 40 minutes a night in the playoffs.

Yea, I don't disagree with that. And I won't knock Embiid for having the weight that he has because that allows him to be elite on defense when he's not absolutely gassed from running up and down the court at 7'2 and scoring 30+ppg. I'm completely fine with him going for 23-25 and aiming for DPOY instead.

Sad thing is he will never agree to that. At least for another 3-4 seasons minimum. He for sure wants to be Batman.

[Negrodamus]

Certainly we do. We saw it on the court when PJ Tucker exhorted Joel Embiid in the playoffs this year, for example. We heard Charles Barkley talk about it in the video above. It consists of nothing other than a certain kind of communication among people.

Perfect example of you taking 48 minutes of a game and conflating it into an entire team's locker room presence. What if PJ Tucker is bullying the **** out of Paul Reed or Jaden Springer in practice and its negatively affecting them? Is that leadership?

Speaking of PJ, where is he "exemplifying" for his teammates when he's honestly one of the worst starter, statistically, throughout the season.

Nobody knows what any particular team's locker room looks like, no, but we do know what leadership looks like, and we can certainly infer from the way players perform whether they'd have the requisite status and credibility in the eyes of their teammates to be considered leaders by them. Charles Barkley certainly wouldn't have responded to the same exhortation by Marc Iavaroni.

I suppose Jokic is finally a leader after losing in five last year in the first round and getting swept in the second round the year before against the Suns. Jimmy's finally a leader after trashing two franchises (Bulls and more infamously the T'Wolves). Draymond's a big leader despite punching Jordan Poole in the face during practice and derailing his career since. Anyone else I'm missing? We must make sure that all nuance in locker room presence is ignored; they are, after all, humans. The only things that matter is what the general public sees/hears.

[Ferry Avenue]

Perfect example of you taking 48 minutes of a game and conflating it into an entire team's locker room presence. What if PJ Tucker is bullying the **** out of Paul Reed or Jaden Springer in practice and its negatively affecting them? Is that leadership?

Speaking of PJ, where is he "exemplifying" for his teammates when he's honestly one of the worst starter, statistically, throughout the season.

Nobody knows what any particular team's locker room looks like, no, but we do know what leadership looks like, and we can certainly infer from the way players perform whether they'd have the requisite status and credibility in the eyes of their teammates to be considered leaders by them. Charles Barkley certainly wouldn't have responded to the same exhortation by Marc Iavaroni.

I suppose Jokic is finally a leader after losing in five last year in the first round and getting swept in the second round the year before against the Suns. Jimmy's finally a leader after trashing two franchises (Bulls and more infamously the T'Wolves). Draymond's a big leader despite punching Jordan Poole in the face during practice and derailing his career since. Anyone else I'm missing? We must make sure that all nuance in locker room presence is ignored; they are, after all, humans. The only things that matter is what the general public sees/hears.

We know who isn't a leader -- James Harden. And Embiid arguably isn't either. When both players respond highly inconsistently to team need at the most critical times -- in terms of effort and intent -- they can't possibly be in a position to exhort anyone else to, either.

[Arsenal]

It's crazy to think Embiid isn't in shape. He's not Ben Simmons level endurance, but he's also 7'2 and carrying a heavy frame of muscle. And it's also everyone is different: some people can run forever and others can't.

All of these points are unimportant though. The overarching point I'm alluding to is that no one on here knows what leadership in an NBA lockerroom really looks like.

Fair point. And like many have suggested on this forum lately Embiid needs to be utilized less on offense. Every trip down can't start with him receiving the ball at the top of the key or elbow. It's predictable, stagnates ball/player movement, and is just so damn slow. I am so, so tired of watching 7'2 Kobe on so many possessions. And this ties back to fitness bc not many guys let alone centers can do this for 40 minutes a night in the playoffs.

Exactly. If this is the best Embiid's conditioning can get, his load needs to be lessened. No more insane 37% usage.

If he wants to be the focal point on offense, then he needs to not get tired.

[Mik317]

All year Biid's ACTUAL TEAMMATES lauded his leadership and how much better he got at it...and yet here we are lol

[Negrodamus]

All year Biid's ACTUAL TEAMMATES lauded his leadership and how much better he got at it...and yet here we are lol

Sorry, teammates do not define leadership. RealGM board members do.

[Eyeamok]

That shouldn't be something a coach or the organization at large has to enforce. That should be something highly-paid NBA players who want to play at maximum levels and win a championship achieve on their own. That kind of thing is accomplished far better by personnel selection and acquiring players with that mentality than it is by "policing" players and enforcing a culture surrounding that in that way. Nobody had to police Kobe Bryant in that way.

The players will create their own culture. The main thing is to have player leaders who exemplify what you're striving for. Then when you have slackers who don't keep themselves in tip-top shape, they'll experience themselves as going against the grain of the player culture, and the player leaders will take over and get the message across, just like Moses Malone did with Charles Barkley. That's all the "enforcement" you need in that regard.

Wrong. Leadership needs to come from the top. Management, the front office, and the coaching staff first. Players can help but if there's zero organizational emphasis, results will be lacking.

1. Nobody had to police Kobe Bryant! Kobe was raised to be a basketball player by his father. Being in shape and getting into shape was what he was taught he had to do to play at the highest level. It was part of who he was.
2. Leadership comes from the top. If you don't believe that, then no matter what I say you still won't believe it.
3. Just because you are highly paid does not mean you are motivated to do your best. If money is no longer the carrot driving you then the motivation has to be developed. A lot of times being around people who are more motivated than you and will challenge you can improve your level of motivation.
4. So many of these players are young men that don't know anything. All they know is they can play ball. If you have a system and a culture in place it can go a long long way to turning these young men into winners. And keeping them prepared for the opportunity to win when it presents it self. Better to be prepared and not have an opportunity than to have an opportunity and not be prepared.
5. Moses may have inspired Charles to lose weight. But Charles has said on several occasions, that when he got to Houston and Pippen would tell him to come lift weights early in the morning. That's when he started to understand about getting into shape. And it was not just losing weight. And for the record Charles was not dedicated to getting up and lifting those weights with Pippen and the other rockets.


Scottie Pippen unleashed a torrent of criticism at Houston Rockets teammate Charles Barkley, calling Barkley "selfish" and "fat" and saying he doesn't have the desire to win an NBA championship.

"I probably should've listened to Michael (Jordan) a year ago when he said that Charles will never win a championship because he doesn't show any dedication," Pippen told ESPN. "He's a very selfish guy. He doesn't show the desire to want to win. That's my reason for wanting to get away from playing with him _ because he just doesn't show the dedication."

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1999/09/30/pippen-blasts-into-barkley/

[mccluskey]

Wrong. Leadership needs to come from the top. Management, the front office, and the coaching staff first. Players can help but if there's zero organizational emphasis, results will be lacking.

Wrong. Organizational leadership can be lacking, and Moses Malone can still inspire Charles Barkley to lose weight and become one of the best players in history. Why? Because Moses Malone wants to win the championship. The drive to win at the player level can overcome just about anything.

"Exceptions exist therefore the general rule is invalid."

Mark of a low IQ (or a troll).

I don't think it's an either/or situation, so I think you both have good points. I agree 100% that a team's management has to take the lead in promoting and setting the tone for their desired team culture, and the most successful teams tend to be the ones where that messaging and expectations are consistently communicated and reinforced at all levels of the organization top to bottom.

at the same time FA isn't wrong that in the current NBA environment the players have a ton of power and influence - as much or more than the coach and GM in many instances - and how much your star guys are willing to buy in to your culture and demonstrate that belief to their teammates through their example is also crucial to making it successful. If those guys don't really care about your core principles and/or don't establish a consistent level of effort in practice, workouts, games, etc, it's going to be an uphill battle to make things work with the rest of the team.

[Jhawk03]

There's simply TOO MUCH PRESSURE on this team to win it all. This board can't even engage in a fashion that is light hearted enough for genuine discussion. You can't even crack a joke on here without being dragged into the pit. The trolls and other teams fans will infiltrate the board in due time.

At this point I'm down for operating with no pressure and getting the players who actually ENJOY playing basketball while creating a culture the Sixers desperately need to join this organization. Of course the onus of finding those players starts at the top.

[mjkvol]

There's simply TOO MUCH PRESSURE on this team to win it all. This board can't even engage in a fashion that is light hearted enough for genuine discussion. You can't even crack a joke on here without being dragged into the pit. The trolls and other teams fans will infiltrate the board in due time.

At this point I'm down for operating with no pressure and getting the players who actually ENJOY playing basketball while creating a culture the Sixers desperately need to join this organization. Of course the onus of finding those players starts at the top.

And it also takes a hell of a lot longer than a single offseason to implement a winning culture, solid player development, and a healthy atmosphere that players want to be a part of and talk about among themselves, the way Miami is and Denver is becoming.

This place has had a toxic culture ever since the snake Silver slithered in and brought his henchmen with him, and has only gotten worse with each successive hire in the front office and under Rivers. Here's hoping that Morey and Nurse will have the time to develop that kind of culture here even if they don't have instant success.

[Ferry Avenue]

Wrong. Organizational leadership can be lacking, and Moses Malone can still inspire Charles Barkley to lose weight and become one of the best players in history. Why? Because Moses Malone wants to win the championship. The drive to win at the player level can overcome just about anything.

"Exceptions exist therefore the general rule is invalid."

Mark of a low IQ (or a troll).

I don't think it's an either/or situation, so I think you both have good points. I agree 100% that a team's management has to take the lead in promoting and setting the tone for their desired team culture, and the most successful teams tend to be the ones where that messaging and expectations are consistently communicated and reinforced at all levels of the organization top to bottom.

at the same time FA isn't wrong that in the current NBA environment the players have a ton of power and influence - as much or more than the coach and GM in many instances - and how much your star guys are willing to buy in to your culture and demonstrate that belief to their teammates through their example is also crucial to making it successful. If those guys don't really care about your core principles and/or don't establish a consistent level of effort in practice, workouts, games, etc, it's going to be an uphill battle to make things work with the rest of the team.

Whatever your organizational culture, it's certainly mediated at the player level. A bad organizational culture at the front office/GM/head coach levels can be overcome by a good culture at the player level, generated by the player leaders. Likewise a good organizational culture at the front office/GM/head coach levels can be undermined or outweighed by a bad culture at the player level, similarly generated by the player leaders.

The difference in pro sports however is that we aren't dealing with fast food employees at McDonald's for example, where the bad apples can simply be jettisoned and a new culture take shape at the frontline employee level. We're dealing with players under contract for multiple years, making more money than anyone else in the organization in many cases, and generating lots of revenue. Wiping the slate clean for the purpose of developing a new culture at the player level isn't anywhere near as easily accomplished under those circumstances. Joel Embiid for example very likely isn't going anywhere.

So, organizational cultures in pro sports take shape at the player level, and in many cases it's difficult to effect change in them, regardless of what's going on elsewhere in the organization.

[76ciology]

1- get others more involved so you wont carry that heavy of a load
2- stop chasing stat (i.e 30ppg or 65 games minimum)
3- learn how to play with 100% effort thru pain or having a bad day, unlearn sitting out games because you’re not 100% healthy
4- stop quitting elimination games. Be a professional. You are not LeBron. Play it like its your last

[Ferry Avenue]

1- get others more involved so you wont carry that heavy of a load
2- stop chasing stat (i.e 30ppg or 65 games minimum)
3- learn how to play with 100% effort thru pain or having a bad day, unlearn sitting out games because you’re not 100% healthy
4- stop quitting elimination games. Be a professional. You are not LeBron. Play it like its your last

All of that would fall under the umbrella of "being strongly driven to win a championship," and would either happen or not happen on the basis of whether that umbrella exists. I'm not sure Embiid experiences that.

[JudahMax]

The biggest takeaway from looking at the Finals teams is they are in superior physical shape. Able to run, press, defend, and move on offense nonstop all-game. Especially the star players.

Joker has insane stamina and is in great shape, unlike when he first came into the league as a doughboy. And we all know about "Heat Culture" where they measure players' body fat and force them to be in perfect shape, and bench them if not.

I think all of those things are missing with the Sixers. Guys are overweight and sluggish. Our stars ALWAYS get winded down the stretch of tough playoff games. And fatigue makes cowards of us all.

Can Nick Nurse bring a culture of extreme fitness to this team? Seems like he did in Toronto to squeeze everything out of mediocre talents. Hope he prioritizes that here.

Ummm it’s just pure luck most the time. Jamal Murray has missed the last three playoffs with injury and this year he so happens to be healthy through the playoff’s and they win! The sixers have to get a playoff run next year with embid the mvp not a hobbled embid. He needs to start wearing the d Wade knee pads as well! Those things help you on falls and knee to knee bangs amongst other protection.

Sure it’s great to be in shape and I don’t know if we’re a non in shape team anyway. We just needed a head coach like nurse who believes in the OTHERS doing they part instead of not contributing at all because doc won’t give them any real burn

[FireMorey]

This isn't the NFL, this is an NBA-wide thing. The players run the NBA and they basically can show up at any weight they desire and no one can really say much about it. In the NFL if you show up overweight and out of shape they'll bench your ass until you get into playing shape. Some may even get flat out released over it if it's bad enough.

But I don't feel the Sixers as a team have any worse conditioning than any other team.

[Arsenal]

This isn't the NFL, this is an NBA-wide thing. The players run the NBA and they basically can show up at any weight they desire and no one can really say much about it. In the NFL if you show up overweight and out of shape they'll bench your ass until you get into playing shape. Some may even get flat out released over it if it's bad enough.

But I don't feel the Sixers as a team have any worse conditioning than any other team.

There's no way our players are in as good condition as Miami. Just no way. They actually do bench players who are overweight and out of shape.

[Mik317]

don't think anyone was out of shape this year lol.

Biid lost some fitness after an injury layoff which is to be expected by the nature of the injury...but that's about it. The large majority of our team is simply not athletic or old. Thats not fitness thats personnel lol.

[GoSixersBro]

This isn't the NFL, this is an NBA-wide thing. The players run the NBA and they basically can show up at any weight they desire and no one can really say much about it. In the NFL if you show up overweight and out of shape they'll bench your ass until you get into playing shape. Some may even get flat out released over it if it's bad enough.

But I don't feel the Sixers as a team have any worse conditioning than any other team.

I think you're right. Joel and Harden could look like LeBron and Jimmy and still would start moping/zoning out with 3 minutes left in the game if they coughed up a lead.

[Ferry Avenue]

There's simply TOO MUCH PRESSURE on this team to win it all. This board can't even engage in a fashion that is light hearted enough for genuine discussion. You can't even crack a joke on here without being dragged into the pit. The trolls and other teams fans will infiltrate the board in due time.

At this point I'm down for operating with no pressure and getting the players who actually ENJOY playing basketball while creating a culture the Sixers desperately need to join this organization. Of course the onus of finding those players starts at the top.

That was generated by "the process," but if the team had obtained players highly driven to win a championship and who put the onus on themselves to develop their games and play in such a way as to win one, the pressure generated by "the process" wouldn't matter. That pressure would still exist at the front office/GM/head coach levels, whereas the championship culture generated at the player level would overcome it.

Again organizational cultures are mediated at the player level. The team has simply engaged in poor player selection in acquiring Embiid, Simmons, and Harden as its centerpieces, from the perspective of team culture development. There has been an organizational overvaluing and coddling of those players due to "the process" as well, which the higher levels of the organization is responsible for, but again if those players had championship DNA it would overcome that. Put as much pressure as you want on Kobe Bryant and he's still going to refine his game par excellence and play the way he does.