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The Official 2023 Draft Thread

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1461 » by 80sballboy » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:21 pm

In The Athletic article, Sam Vecenie talks about Kobe Bufkin
https://theathletic.com/4622872/2023/06/20/washington-wizards-draft-preview/?source=emp_shared_article

Vecenie: Bufkin is a player who seems to have been steadily rising up the board throughout the process for NBA teams, but he’s been very high for me since about early March. I’ve had him in the lottery since then. I love how well-rounded his game is and how many of his attributes figure to translate well to the NBA. He again ticks a lot of boxes for the Thunder methodology because of his positional size and well-rounded game for his age.

I buy him as a shooter, and I really buy his feel for the game on offense. His passing is improving as he continues to gain experience playing on the ball consistently. He knows how to play direct basketball, with quick choices and decisive drives. He’s an elite finisher with great touch for a guard when he gets to the rim. There isn’t a ton of fluff there. He has the size to not be hunted if the strength comes along defensively. He’s also a really good defender both on and off the ball. Plus, his ability to play both on and off the ball will allow him to play with stars at a high level. Bufkin has starter upside long-term. And if he can develop a bit more game off the bounce to separate from his man, there is even a bit more upside beyond that in the highest-end potential outcomes.

The question is largely around his ability to actually create at a high level. You would maybe like to see a bit of fluff in terms of his ability to dance and create a shot, but I think his ability to play a different cadence and his hip flexibility give him some upside to develop those gifts once he gets stronger and can hold his ground on the ball against aggressive defenders a bit. With his long arms and stronger shoulders, he has the kind of frame that should be able to add some weight and improve some of the strength-based issues that cause him problems now. But the frame and potential lack of ability to separate is why he’s more of a lottery pick for me as opposed to a top-seven guy.


On Black

Vecenie: It’s actually kind of easy to understand, I think. Dawkins comes from Oklahoma City, and as I mentioned, the type for Oklahoma City was elite positional size mixed with elite feel for the game. Black is, for my money, the highest IQ player in this draft class. He’s an incredible playmaker who makes faster decisions than anyone in the class. He sees the game steps and levels ahead of everyone else. Genuinely, he ticks every box for what Oklahoma City would typically look for. That makes me — and others across the league — think Dawkins will be a fan.


So why did this guy only average 13 points and four assists in college? It had to do with his situation at Arkansas. The Razorbacks were maybe the worst-spaced team with multiple real draft prospects that I’ve watched play college basketball in a long time. The team shot 31 percent from 3 and took 3s on a lower percentage of their possessions than all but 12 teams in the country. Teams just completely collapsed the paint all game every game, which reduced Black’s ability to get into the lane. It’s not an accident that Black saw his best success early in the season, before Trevon Brazile, the team’s 6-foot-10 stretch-five man, tore his ACL. In the Maui Invitational’s three games, Black averaged 22.3 points, 4.7 rebounds and 4.3 assists while shooting 55 percent from the field. On top of that, Black was a terrific defensive player this past season.

The ultimate concern with Black is that the jumper is pretty rough. The mechanics are messy, and he doesn’t seem wildly confident when it comes to taking them. He’s going to need to take a real leap as a shooter to reach his potential. But I also think he’s an underrated athlete and should be able to consistently penetrate the first line of defense in the NBA. I have him ranked No. 8 on my board, and think he’d be a wonderful pick.


Hendricks strikes me more as an awesome 3-and-D role player long-term because he struggles to create off of the bounce, so I don’t know that I love him in this situation. But he’s in this tier of players, at least. Whitmore is my favorite of this group of players because of his elite athleticism and potential as a shot creator. He’s the No. 3 player on my board, but it’s very close between him and some of the others. He’s a sick athlete. Finally, Wallace also strikes me as more of a role player given that he’s defense-first more than anything. He’s a solid shot creator and midrange shot-maker, but I worry about his shake.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1462 » by joshuacf » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:37 pm

A six or even five-rookie class seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

1. There isn't enough playing time to go around for the six rookies plus our other young guys.

2. If we draft six rookies this year, a lot of them will have to be let go before their first contract is up. How are you going to develop guys if after two years you have to make a decision on cutting them?

3. Psychologically, I think drafting that many rookies would have an effect on the rookies. If you are drafting six rookies in a class, you are basically taking a lottery ticket model where you cast a wide net and then discard the ones who don't show promise immediately.

The rookies are going to see this for what it is, and instead of feeling like they got drafted to a team because the team likes them and wants to develop them, they are going to feel like they were just a number picked out of a hat. Nobody is going to want to come to a team that is known for drafting a bunch of players and then getting rid of 60% of those players a year or two down the line.

I think we should be drafting two or three rookies a class, and then really working on developing them. Better to really focus on a couple of guys instead of giving a half-chance to a bunch of players.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1463 » by FAH1223 » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:42 pm

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1464 » by NatP4 » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:45 pm

Yeah I’d like to trade 42/52/57 for another pick in the 25-35 range, and hopefully get 30 from the Clippers. Take 3 drafted rookies.

Coulibaly
Podziemski
Cissoko/Clowney

But Porzingis might also be gone on draft night for more picks, and I doubt we wanna have Morris/Wright on the roster, as opposed to giving young players those minutes/opportunities.

Still dreaming about Porzingis for #6 from Orlando. Go get Ausar. Porzingis is a PERFECT fit in Orlando, and that core is ready to start winning. They can take NBA ready Gradey Dick at 11, and be a good team.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1465 » by pcbothwel » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:49 pm

Dat2U wrote:
80sballboy wrote:KOC
pcbothwel wrote:
Terrible value. Maxey was a better athlete (build + first step) and while Bufkin looks solid, you cant take him in the top 10 as a rebuilding team.

We need to keep CP3 until the deadline, trade Morris, and draft Black. If Black can be Lonzo Ball with a Keldon Johnson body/frame... then you have the beginning of a core.


I'm not sure what is the determining factor used to say you can draft Anthony Black in the top 10 but not Kobe Bufkin. One guy is a 3-level scorer and it isn't Black.


Fair enough... I really like Bufkin. Offensively, he is a Herro/Poole doppelganger...but I dont see him being a distributer and he doesnt draw fouls.
It tough because Herro/Poole with better defense will certainly be a top 10 player in this draft but I would hope to swing slightly bigger starting off a rebuild.
Im really starting to think a trade back 4-6 spots is perfect for this draft assuming our FO doesnt love someone at 8.
One of Black, Bufkin, Wallace, Bilal, Dick, Lively will make it to 14. Getting another 1st in 2024 would be a nice add.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1466 » by awolfinwater » Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:10 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
80sballboy wrote:KOC


I'm not sure what is the determining factor used to say you can draft Anthony Black in the top 10 but not Kobe Bufkin. One guy is a 3-level scorer and it isn't Black.


Fair enough... I really like Bufkin. Offensively, he is a Herro/Poole doppelganger...but I dont see him being a distributer and he doesnt draw fouls.
It tough because Herro/Poole with better defense will certainly be a top 10 player in this draft but I would hope to swing slightly bigger starting off a rebuild.
Im really starting to think a trade back 4-6 spots is perfect for this draft assuming our FO doesnt love someone at 8.
One of Black, Bufkin, Wallace, Bilal, Dick, Lively will make it to 14. Getting another 1st in 2024 would be a nice add.


As mentioned in one of the tweets above, Bufkin was hot early hit a slump and came on strong at the end of the year. If you consider the last two months of the season, his TS% was 63.8%!! Basically #1 in the B10. For comparison, Gradey Dick has a TS% of 58.1% and Anthony black has 54.9%.

While his Free Throw Attempts are fairly low (~2.5 a game while Anthony Black has 9.1!!), his FT% is 85% which is a great predictor for his NBA 3pt potential.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1467 » by pcbothwel » Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:34 pm

awolfinwater wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
I'm not sure what is the determining factor used to say you can draft Anthony Black in the top 10 but not Kobe Bufkin. One guy is a 3-level scorer and it isn't Black.


Fair enough... I really like Bufkin. Offensively, he is a Herro/Poole doppelganger...but I dont see him being a distributer and he doesnt draw fouls.
It tough because Herro/Poole with better defense will certainly be a top 10 player in this draft but I would hope to swing slightly bigger starting off a rebuild.
Im really starting to think a trade back 4-6 spots is perfect for this draft assuming our FO doesnt love someone at 8.
One of Black, Bufkin, Wallace, Bilal, Dick, Lively will make it to 14. Getting another 1st in 2024 would be a nice add.


As mentioned in one of the tweets above, Bufkin was hot early hit a slump and came on strong at the end of the year. If you consider the last two months of the season, his TS% was 63.8%!! Basically #1 in the B10. For comparison, Gradey Dick has a TS% of 58.1% and Anthony black has 54.9%.

While his Free Throw Attempts are fairly low (~2.5 a game while Anthony Black has 9.1!!), his FT% is 85% which is a great predictor for his NBA 3pt potential.


Again, I like Bufkin, Gradey Dick, Hawkins, etc. But I dont see the ceiling. You could argue he is in the Beal/Booker mold, but both of them were younger/bigger/better.

I wont keep on with the Anthony Black point as I have said it enough. You have to project tools. Black was in a TERRIBLE situation for his archetype with no pace or shooting around him.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1468 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:37 pm

awolfinwater wrote:As mentioned in one of the tweets above, Bufkin was hot early hit a slump and came on strong at the end of the year. If you consider the last two months of the season, his TS% was 63.8%!! Basically #1 in the B10....

Whoa, hold on there. If you're going to look at a guy's numbers & compare them either to another player's numbers or to some kind of "norm," you cannot isolate his hottest streak & say -- "here's a reason to think about drafting him."

The simple response to that is for someone to point at a different segment of his year, his coldest streak, & say -- "here's a reason to forget about drafting him."

On its own, the one has no more validity than the other.

As a Freshman, Bufkin was terrible. Absolutely awful. & earned only 298 minutes.
He was better, no doubt, as a Sophomore -- but that's not to say that he put up numbers that qualify as "good."

Bufkin is a hard pass for me at 8.

Would I take him at 18? I don't know; depends who else was on the board. I don't think I'd take him over Brandin Podziemski, for example.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1469 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:54 pm

pcbothwel wrote:...Anthony Black.... You have to project tools. Black was in a TERRIBLE situation for his archetype with no pace or shooting around him.

That has to be the argument for Black, to be sure. Because, based simply on the numbers he put up, it's hard to be real high on him.

Don't get me wrong: college numbers, especially for a Freshman, don't tell the whole story by any means. Tyrese Maxey posted lousy numbers in his 1 year at Kentucky, for example.

That said, the top of this draft really baffles me!
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1470 » by gambitx777 » Wed Jun 21, 2023 12:19 am

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:...Anthony Black.... You have to project tools. Black was in a TERRIBLE situation for his archetype with no pace or shooting around him.

That has to be the argument for Black, to be sure. Because, based simply on the numbers he put up, it's hard to be real high on him.

Don't get me wrong: college numbers, especially for a Freshman, don't tell the whole story by any means. Tyrese Maxey posted lousy numbers in his 1 year at Kentucky, for example.

That said, the top of this draft really baffles me!
If we take Anthony black with Bilal in the bored I'ma cry! Black is Dante exum all over again .

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1471 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 21, 2023 12:33 am

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1472 » by Gig18 » Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:59 am

What's everyone's thoughts on Jace Walker. For some reason, maybe because there's almost NO talk about him as Thursday approaches i could see him as the "name" who slides. He seems awkward to me despite his athleticism and I worry that he's a baby bull that only measured 6'6" if I remember correctly. Pretty highly regarded tho...
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1473 » by payitforward » Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:00 am

gambitx777 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:...Anthony Black.... You have to project tools. Black was in a TERRIBLE situation for his archetype with no pace or shooting around him.

That has to be the argument for Black, to be sure. Because, based simply on the numbers he put up, it's hard to be real high on him.

Don't get me wrong: college numbers, especially for a Freshman, don't tell the whole story by any means. Tyrese Maxey posted lousy numbers in his 1 year at Kentucky, for example.

That said, the top of this draft really baffles me!
If we take Anthony black with Bilal in the bored I'ma cry! Black is Dante exum all over again .

Well, Bilal is almost certain to be on the board.

As I say, the top of this draft baffles me. Tho I can certainly see rolling the dice on Ausur or Whitmore.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1474 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:51 am

Gig18 wrote:What's everyone's thoughts on Jace Walker. For some reason, maybe because there's almost NO talk about him as Thursday approaches i could see him as the "name" who slides. He seems awkward to me despite his athleticism and I worry that he's a baby bull that only measured 6'6" if I remember correctly. Pretty highly regarded tho...


He appears to be a bit of a poor man's Barkley or Draymond. Undersized but with a 7-2 wingspan and a strong body. Somebody called him a power wing. A Paul Millsap-type, but that's assuming he develops a better three-point shot. I've seen him top five and I don't quite know why. But he's the type I'd love to have if I had a bunch of shooters and needed a guy to do the dirty work. I don't see the Wiz as a fit, if he slips to 8.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1475 » by tleikheen » Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:33 am

Wednesday is KP announcing he's opting in and are the Wizards ready to see what offers there are out there for him. Detroit,Houston,Portland have shown interest and all have said they might be willing to move down. KP is the only one who will get a good return back.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1476 » by daSwami » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:16 pm

I doubt we stay at 8, but if we do I have no idea who I'd pick because this roster needs everything. That said, I'm super impressed by Anthony Black's hair, so he's my guy.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1477 » by payitforward » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:23 pm

joshuacf wrote:A six or even five-rookie class seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

1. There isn't enough playing time to go around for the six rookies plus our other young guys.

2. If we draft six rookies this year, a lot of them will have to be let go before their first contract is up. How are you going to develop guys if after two years you have to make a decision on cutting them?

3. Psychologically, I think drafting that many rookies would have an effect on the rookies. If you are drafting six rookies in a class, you are basically taking a lottery ticket model where you cast a wide net and then discard the ones who don't show promise immediately.

The rookies are going to see this for what it is, and instead of feeling like they got drafted to a team because the team likes them and wants to develop them, they are going to feel like they were just a number picked out of a hat. Nobody is going to want to come to a team that is known for drafting a bunch of players and then getting rid of 60% of those players a year or two down the line.

I think we should be drafting two or three rookies a class, and then really working on developing them. Better to really focus on a couple of guys instead of giving a half-chance to a bunch of players.

Well, first off, I was a little bit making fun of myself!
I'm known on the board for always wanting a lot of rookies: one year I think I got my desired total up to 7 !! :)

That said, there's method behind my madness. Let me explain:

In 2018-19, our record was 32-50.
Another team in the league went 33-49 that year. Pretty close, right?

In the Spring of 2019, at the end of the season, we fired Ernie; got a new GM.
That other team also fired its GM & appointed a new FO.
(Like the Wizards, interestingly, they promoted from within the organization)

In 2019-20, the other team played 4 rookies (plus 4 other guys in their 2d years). 2 of the rookies got heavy minutes.

In 2020-21, that team played 5 rookies -- but only 2 of them played a lot of minutes (as did 3 of the rookies from the previous year, btw).

The next year, the team slowed down the rookie rate -- well, not really: they had 5 rookies on their roster, but only 2 of them played meaningful minutes.

That brings us to '22-23.
The team added a total of 6 rookies for this last season. 2 of them were R1 picks, 2 were R2 picks, & 2 were undrafted. It's worth noting that one of the undrafted guys has already earned himself a multi-year, guaranteed regular-roster contract.

That's 20 rookies added in 4 years. Of course, not all of them are still with the team, but of the 19 guys who played any minutes at all for the team this season, 13 of them came from that group.

I will take a moment to remind you that in 2018-19 that team won 33 games, & the Wizards won 32 games -- a 1-game difference.
Over the last two years, in which the Wizards have won a total of 70 games, that other team, the one that added 20 rookies in 4 years, has gone 107-57.

So I guess it can be done. In fact -- given that no other team has improved anywhere near that much in the last 4 years -- maybe it's even a pretty good idea...? :)
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1478 » by awolfinwater » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:27 pm

payitforward wrote:Whoa, hold on there. If you're going to look at a guy's numbers & compare them either to another player's numbers or to some kind of "norm," you cannot isolate his hottest streak & say -- "here's a reason to think about drafting him."

The simple response to that is for someone to point at a different segment of his year, his coldest streak, & say -- "here's a reason to forget about drafting him."

Sure I can look at how he ended the season in NCAA. I would call it reckless not to look at how each player progressed over the year. In this case, I did cherry pick a little bit but was focused on how Bufkin finished the season during peak B10 play.

For more apples-to-apples, I ran a 7-game moving average of TS% for Bufkin, Black, Dick, and Wallace to get a sense of if they progressed or any other patterns that qualitative data can help explain. Each other player tended to drift down as the season progressed except in the case of Bufkin, you can clearly see a dip mid-season and return to peak form to close out year.

Why the dip mid season? Injury? Coaching? Personal? Depending on what I hear and learn would better inform my decision on his NBA potential.


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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1479 » by Dark Faze » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:35 pm

Why am I just now figuring out about the Thompson bros and the OTE league?

SMH, I wouldn't touch them in the lottery. I don't really care about the tape. You've got to have played against real comp.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#1480 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:37 pm

re tankathon

interesting that months ago, before the college season, Scoot was considered
a bit of a lock for number 2 overall. Then he slipped. But now he's back to #2
in Tankathon anyway. I guess he's never been lower than 3 in most mocks.
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