Trade/Free Agency Thread, pt 5, 2023-24 – (6PM [ET], Fri, June 30)

[Triple7]

I think there is a less than 0% chance Brown gets traded now. I wasn't so sure going into the draft, but it doesn't really make sense.

Tatum, Brown, KP, White and Rob is about as elite as it gets. I'm not totally against trading JB. But people are acting as if him and Tatum are not going to improve this season. They're just now starting to enter their prime. Fill out the roster...see how it goes. If they do end up really needing a ball dominant PG, then I'm sure someone will shake free at the deadline

Brown has very poor basketball sense. It's been that way since he arrived. I don't expect that to ever change. To have 35% of your cap tied up in such a player will not end well.

We would be the laughing stock of the league if we pay him that. Our strong bench gave us the advantage last season against most teams. We will lose that if we pay brown. Plus, if i’m being honest, we don’t really have much use for brown inside on offense, since we have white, Tatum and Porzingis. We need brown if Tatum hits the bench actually, but playing the Jays together, limits both their games.

[steefP2]

For everyone suggesting Grant Williams sign and trades; 2 important things. 1. You CANNOT aggregate salary with grant in a sign and trade so no grant + pp trades. You can only do that if you sign your free agent with cap space and then trade him. We cannot do so.


2nd thing is base year compensation rules;

he BYC rules apply to a player who meets all of the following criteria in a sign-and-trade:

He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
He receives a raise greater than 20%.
His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.
If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is his full new salary.




This means that if grant gets a contract for let’s say 15 mil and we sign and trade him; we can only take bake a contract of 7.5 mil.


So you can’t trade grant for expensive players; like hield does not work. Hield makes 18 mil so you’d have to give grant a salary of 35 mil for those things to work. That’s not happening.

Otherwise continue onwards

[Darthlukey]

Clippers can still do the trade now if they wanted (esp now that Wiz have a logjam at guard). Same guys going in and out for them. I think they just used the Brogdon health thing as an excuse and they just didn't want to cough up an asset for him (likely a 1st).

But why would we do the trade without an asset coming back?

For that matter, why would we trade Brogdon just for a super-late first?

To have a "true PG" (Tyus Jones/Monte Morris) most here have been craving for to replace Smart.

Jonesing for Jones. Excuse the pun

[zoyathedestroya]

For everyone suggesting Grant Williams sign and trades; 2 important things. 1. You CANNOT aggregate salary with grant in a sign and trade so no grant + pp trades. You can only do that if you don’t your free agent with cap space and then trade him. We cannot do so.


2nd thing is base year compensation rules;

he BYC rules apply to a player who meets all of the following criteria in a sign-and-trade:

He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
He receives a raise greater than 20%.
His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.
If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is his full new salary.




This means that if grant gets a contract for let’s say 15 mil and we sign and trade him; we can only take bake a contract of 7.5 mil.


So you can’t trade grant for expensive players; like hield does not work. Hield makes 18 mil so you’d have to give grant a salary of 35 mil for those things to work. That’s not happening.

Otherwise continue onwards

Good tip.

Grant for Dame, WHO SAYS NO?!

[Andrew McCeltic]

What about sign and trades with an under the cap team for a TPE, which we use to acquire a player from that team?

Like, Grant to Orlando into their cap space for 14 million, we use the 14 million dollar TPE created to absorb Gary Harris? Or would we get a TPE for 7 million because he’s a BYC player?

[steefP2]

What about sign and trades with an under the cap team for a TPE, which we use to acquire a player from that team?

Like, Grant to Orlando into their cap space for 14 million, we use the 14 million dollar TPE created to absorb Gary Harris? Or would we get a TPE for 7 million because he’s a BYC player?

You’ve outstripped my cap knowledge; but I think we should get the full 14 mill tpe. Because we’re not taking salary back in the initial deal. I think that’s possible but I’m way less certain here

[Andrew McCeltic]

What about sign and trades with an under the cap team for a TPE, which we use to acquire a player from that team?

Like, Grant to Orlando into their cap space for 14 million, we use the 14 million dollar TPE created to absorb Gary Harris? Or would we get a TPE for 7 million because he’s a BYC player?

You’ve outstripped my cap knowledge; but I think we should get the full 14 mill tpe. Because we’re not taking salary back in the initial deal. I think that’s possible but I’m way less certain here

I think it works to create the TPE but I don’t know if you can use that to structure a trade that effectively circumvents BYC matching rules. Using an Orlando-derived TPE to get Landry Shamet is different from using it to get an Orlando player.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Apparently the salary matching rules are changing July 1st

https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/understanding-trade-matching-in-the-new-collective-bargaining-agreement/

[Andrew McCeltic]

So it’d be 110 percent of 7.5 million, not 125 percent.. Grant signing a 16M/yr S&T can bring back 8.8M in salary..

[djFan71]

So it’d be 110 percent of 7.5 million, not 125 percent.. Grant signing a 16M/yr S&T can bring back 8.8M in salary..

TPE is basically a way to finish a non simultaneous trade, within a year. So, I’d be shocked if the TPE was the full outgoing salary. It just makes sense that it would also be limited to 50%.

Edit: quoted wrong post. Meant this for the s&t TPE question.

[Fencer reregistered]

I haven't checked the arithmetic or the rules, but if we assume Brown signs during this offseason to start a supermax extension the following year, I'm guessing that:
-- The Celtics will be over the second apron for 2024-5 and the foreseeable future.
-- So they will be very limited in their player acquisition from then on.
-- In particular, they won't have an MLE. So the 2023-24 MLE signing will be their last one for a while.
-- If they sign Grant again, they won't even have the 2023-24 MLE. What they will have however will be Grant, plus the potential to trade him (and not anybody aggregating with him) for somebody else making the same or less money (with no wiggle room), perhaps adding in picks (which however will be very late ones no matter where the Cs place, something like the GSW trade pick perhaps excepted).

Is this correct?

[steefP2]

I haven't checked the arithmetic or the rules, but if we assume Brown signs during this offseason to start a supermax extension the following year, I'm guessing that:
-- The Celtics will be over the second apron for 2024-5 and the foreseeable future.
-- So they will be very limited in their player acquisition from then on.
-- In particular, they won't have an MLE. So the 2023-24 MLE signing will be their last one for a while.
-- If they sign Grant again, they won't even have the 2023-24 MLE. What they will have however will be Grant, plus the potential to trade him (and not anybody aggregating with him) for somebody else making the same or less money (with no wiggle room), perhaps adding in picks (which however will be very late ones no matter where the Cs place, something like the GSW trade pick perhaps excepted).

Is this correct?

Yeah that looks right but I’d add we’d probably get off brogdon his money next season if we don’t win the chip. He’ll be much easier to dump next off season when he’s an expiring. So we can duck the second apron that way for next summer and still have our mle. (I think, didn’t check the math). Also depends on what extension zinger will sign. So it’s a bit early to say we’re gonna be a second apron team next summer.

I expect for 98% of the teams the second apron will function as a hard cap equivalent.

[Fencer reregistered]

I haven't checked the arithmetic or the rules, but if we assume Brown signs during this offseason to start a supermax extension the following year, I'm guessing that:
-- The Celtics will be over the second apron for 2024-5 and the foreseeable future.
-- So they will be very limited in their player acquisition from then on.
-- In particular, they won't have an MLE. So the 2023-24 MLE signing will be their last one for a while.
-- If they sign Grant again, they won't even have the 2023-24 MLE. What they will have however will be Grant, plus the potential to trade him (and not anybody aggregating with him) for somebody else making the same or less money (with no wiggle room), perhaps adding in picks (which however will be very late ones no matter where the Cs place, something like the GSW trade pick perhaps excepted).

Is this correct?

Yeah that looks right but I’d add we’d probably get off brogdon his money next season if we don’t win the chip. He’ll be much easier to dump next off season when he’s an expiring. So we can duck the second apron that way for next summer and still have our mle. (I think, didn’t check the math). Also depends on what extension zinger will sign. So it’s a bit early to say we’re gonna be a second apron team next summer.

I expect for 98% of the teams the second apron will function as a hard cap equivalent.

That assumes a tax-payer MLE player is more desirable than Brogdon.

Well, the MLE guy and some buyout guys and so on ...

[Fencer reregistered]

I haven't checked the arithmetic or the rules, but if we assume Brown signs during this offseason to start a supermax extension the following year, I'm guessing that:
-- The Celtics will be over the second apron for 2024-5 and the foreseeable future.
-- So they will be very limited in their player acquisition from then on.
-- In particular, they won't have an MLE. So the 2023-24 MLE signing will be their last one for a while.
-- If they sign Grant again, they won't even have the 2023-24 MLE. What they will have however will be Grant, plus the potential to trade him (and not anybody aggregating with him) for somebody else making the same or less money (with no wiggle room), perhaps adding in picks (which however will be very late ones no matter where the Cs place, something like the GSW trade pick perhaps excepted).

Is this correct?

Yeah that looks right but I’d add we’d probably get off brogdon his money next season if we don’t win the chip. He’ll be much easier to dump next off season when he’s an expiring. So we can duck the second apron that way for next summer and still have our mle. (I think, didn’t check the math). Also depends on what extension zinger will sign. So it’s a bit early to say we’re gonna be a second apron team next summer.

I expect for 98% of the teams the second apron will function as a hard cap equivalent.

So .6 teams will go over it?

[steefP2]

I haven't checked the arithmetic or the rules, but if we assume Brown signs during this offseason to start a supermax extension the following year, I'm guessing that:
-- The Celtics will be over the second apron for 2024-5 and the foreseeable future.
-- So they will be very limited in their player acquisition from then on.
-- In particular, they won't have an MLE. So the 2023-24 MLE signing will be their last one for a while.
-- If they sign Grant again, they won't even have the 2023-24 MLE. What they will have however will be Grant, plus the potential to trade him (and not anybody aggregating with him) for somebody else making the same or less money (with no wiggle room), perhaps adding in picks (which however will be very late ones no matter where the Cs place, something like the GSW trade pick perhaps excepted).

Is this correct?

Yeah that looks right but I’d add we’d probably get off brogdon his money next season if we don’t win the chip. He’ll be much easier to dump next off season when he’s an expiring. So we can duck the second apron that way for next summer and still have our mle. (I think, didn’t check the math). Also depends on what extension zinger will sign. So it’s a bit early to say we’re gonna be a second apron team next summer.

I expect for 98% of the teams the second apron will function as a hard cap equivalent.

That assumes a tax-payer MLE player is more desirable than Brogdon.

Well, the MLE guy and some buyout guys and so on ...

Well it assumes that brogdon isn’t worth dealing with the all the 2nd apron penalties. Notably the draft one that only comes into effect next off-season

[ParticleMan]

I still think our best bet would be buying low on Trae Young. SEnd Brown to Atlanta, hes from their making him more likely to resign, potentially swapping collins and brogdon or however ATL would want, add some picks to balance as needed.

Youngs coming off a down year but I think he would thrive with tatum and porzingis , we'd get a distributer and I feel traes efficiency would go up with the better supporting cast. Our defense may take a hit but Browns D is vastly overrated anyways

Trae for Brown and we add pieces as needed

Trae for brown is certainly intriguing.

Trae dramatically improves our playmaking.

And trae, tatum, kp form a nasty trio.


Brown and brogdon
For
Trae, okongwu and griffin

Save 4 million on deal

Sign and trade grant for suggs

Vet min on griffin
Maybe tpmle on vet pg/sg for depth

Trae/pritchard/davidson
White/suggs/walsh
Tatum/griffin/hauser
Kristaps/horford/griffin
Timelord/okongwu/kornet

I said this right after the KP trade happened -- Trae for JB makes too much sense for everyone. ATL gets a shakeup from treadmill city and a true face of the franchise player who is a hometown boy, and they've got Murray to take his spot. We get a playmaker like we haven't had in forever and a guy who balances our roster, gives us spacing, and can take over games on occasion. Trae is a poor #1 but a great #3. His D sucks but you can hide that more at the PG spot, especially with Rob and KP at the rim. Plus we have a vacancy at the flopper spot now, Trae might even be an upgrade there

Would you rather pay JB $40m or Trae? Because no way JB is getting less than that, and maybe more. It's a close call (which is why it's a fair trade) but given our roster makeup Trae is a bigger need and better fit.

Obviously ATL has said they aren't trading Trae. "We like our guys."

[steefP2]

I still think our best bet would be buying low on Trae Young. SEnd Brown to Atlanta, hes from their making him more likely to resign, potentially swapping collins and brogdon or however ATL would want, add some picks to balance as needed.

Youngs coming off a down year but I think he would thrive with tatum and porzingis , we'd get a distributer and I feel traes efficiency would go up with the better supporting cast. Our defense may take a hit but Browns D is vastly overrated anyways

Trae for Brown and we add pieces as needed

Trae for brown is certainly intriguing.

Trae dramatically improves our playmaking.

And trae, tatum, kp form a nasty trio.


Brown and brogdon
For
Trae, okongwu and griffin

Save 4 million on deal

Sign and trade grant for suggs

Vet min on griffin
Maybe tpmle on vet pg/sg for depth

Trae/pritchard/davidson
White/suggs/walsh
Tatum/griffin/hauser
Kristaps/horford/griffin
Timelord/okongwu/kornet

I said this right after the KP trade happened -- Trae for JB makes too much sense for everyone. ATL gets a shakeup from treadmill city and a true face of the franchise player who is a hometown boy, and they've got Murray to take his spot. We get a playmaker like we haven't had in forever and a guy who balances our roster, gives us spacing, and can take over games on occasion. Trae is a poor #1 but a great #3. His D sucks but you can hide that more at the PG spot, especially with Rob and KP at the rim. Plus we have a vacancy at the flopper spot now, Trae might even be an upgrade there

Would you rather pay JB $40m or Trae? Because no way JB is getting less than that, and maybe more. It's a close call (which is why it's a fair trade) but given our roster makeup Trae is a bigger need and better fit.

Obviously ATL has said they aren't trading Trae. "We like our guys."

Trae isn’t getting traded for jb lol. We’d be laughed out the room. Secondly; we’re not trading Jaylen this summer. They’re gonna give this at least 1 year.

But thinking we can trade Jaylen for trae is not grounded in reality.
L

[ParticleMan]

I said this right after the KP trade happened -- Trae for JB makes too much sense for everyone. ATL gets a shakeup from treadmill city and a true face of the franchise player who is a hometown boy, and they've got Murray to take his spot. We get a playmaker like we haven't had in forever and a guy who balances our roster, gives us spacing, and can take over games on occasion. Trae is a poor #1 but a great #3. His D sucks but you can hide that more at the PG spot, especially with Rob and KP at the rim. Plus we have a vacancy at the flopper spot now, Trae might even be an upgrade there

Would you rather pay JB $40m or Trae? Because no way JB is getting less than that, and maybe more. It's a close call (which is why it's a fair trade) but given our roster makeup Trae is a bigger need and better fit.

Obviously ATL has said they aren't trading Trae. "We like our guys."

Trae isn’t getting traded for jb lol. We’d be laughed out the room. Secondly; we’re not trading Jaylen this summer. They’re gonna give this at least 1 year.

But thinking we can trade Jaylen for trae is not grounded in reality.
L

oh right, my bad. because every GM loves a .500 team and a first round exit year after year with no room for real improvement.

check the stats from last year and tell me why that's such a crazy idea, all jaylen hate aside.

[steefP2]

I said this right after the KP trade happened -- Trae for JB makes too much sense for everyone. ATL gets a shakeup from treadmill city and a true face of the franchise player who is a hometown boy, and they've got Murray to take his spot. We get a playmaker like we haven't had in forever and a guy who balances our roster, gives us spacing, and can take over games on occasion. Trae is a poor #1 but a great #3. His D sucks but you can hide that more at the PG spot, especially with Rob and KP at the rim. Plus we have a vacancy at the flopper spot now, Trae might even be an upgrade there

Would you rather pay JB $40m or Trae? Because no way JB is getting less than that, and maybe more. It's a close call (which is why it's a fair trade) but given our roster makeup Trae is a bigger need and better fit.

Obviously ATL has said they aren't trading Trae. "We like our guys."

Trae isn’t getting traded for jb lol. We’d be laughed out the room. Secondly; we’re not trading Jaylen this summer. They’re gonna give this at least 1 year.

But thinking we can trade Jaylen for trae is not grounded in reality.
L

oh right, my bad. because every GM loves a .500 team and a first round exit year after year with no room for real improvement.

check the stats from last year and tell me why that's such a crazy idea, all jaylen hate aside.

It’s not Jaylen hate; I like Jaylen. But trae is an all nba caliber guard who consistently produces one of the top offenses in the nba whenever he’s on the court. Look at the lineup data and you’ll quickly see that Trae wasn’t the problem in Atlanta last year at all; even in a down year shooting.

But more importantly; they hired a new coach to work with trae and they’re gonna give that at least a year and even more importantly the top decision maker in Atlanta in the front office is super super tight with Trae.

For better or for worse; Atlanta is sticking with trae, at the very least for the year or 2

[steefP2]

And Jaylen is on an expiring which diminishes his value considerably; and if he signs the supermax he can’t be traded for a year. Sure you can say he can tel Atlanta he’d resign and they should be reasonable certain of that but they’re not trading the best hawks they’ve had since Dominique for Jaylen.