Jokic Making a lot of folks look dumb

[Sharkboy242]

You know what? I'm too tired of the MVP conversation to further take part in it. I'm out of that.

Fair enough, but don't expect people to not respond when you say the "world " knows who the superior player is, only for it to be a lopsided MVP vote.

And my guess is many of those MVP voters - while acknowledging all of Jokic's amazing offensive talents - are also acknowledging what the entire basketball world is seeing in these playoffs, which is that Embiid is a true two-way player, and one of the best defensive players in the game. Voters know this. Fellow players - who have to try to score the ball on him - know this (this is probably why Embiid got twice as many votes as Jokic in the poll The Athletic took). And while fans of Jokic try to point to their "basket of acronyms" that would suggest that Jokic is a superior defensive player, numbers such as the stat I posted earlier just confirm what our eyes tell us when we watch the two players - Embiid impacts a game defensively in a way that Jokic simply cannot.

That awkward moment when our basket of acronyms wills Denver a championship.

In the 2022 All-Star Game - the first time they used the Elam scoring system in the 4th quarter - on Embiid's team, looking to win the game, who got the ball? Huh? Did they go to Embiid to win the game because they are RACISTS? Huh?

Of course, the other team couldn't go to Jokic, because he was watching the end of that game from the bench. I guess he was benched because - even though he is the greatest player in basketball - they didn't want to WIN THE GAME. Or, maybe the coach of Jokic's team was a racist and Embiid fan who wanted to make sure that Embiid got the glory.

Right?

Bro is really using the All Star game as an argument

[Sgt Major]

That guy has been in hiding from the moment the 2nd round of the playoffs ended.

[MrBigShot]

Hey in fairness to eyeatoma he came out and gave Jokic his dues when denver won.

Now for the other guy on the other hand, using the all star game, a literal shootaround, as any sort of argument is some of the most wild stuff i've ever seen on realgm

Steph's defense has always been picked on too.
Was he never the best player in the world?

He was on the best team but was never the clear cut best player.

He was as clear cut as Jokic is now.

I don't think it's clear cut that Steph was better than Jokic last year. Jokic was just missing his entire supporting cast.

And other than last year Steph has no arguments for best player in the world, because LeBron exists and was pretty clearly better through 2020.

[shi-woo]

This is an unpopular opinion, but statistically I don’t see an argument for anyone else but Jokic as the best player. IMO he’s not just the best player, but the clear cut best player. Raw stats, efficiency, advanced, he truly has it all.

You're forgetting the most important off all, he also passes the eye test. He leaves little doubt who the best player on the floor is on nearly ever possession he's out there.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Hey in fairness to eyeatoma he came out and gave Jokic his dues when denver won.

Now for the other guy on the other hand, using the all star game, a literal shootaround, as any sort of argument is some of the most wild stuff i've ever seen on realgm

He was on the best team but was never the clear cut best player.

He was as clear cut as Jokic is now.

I don't think it's clear cut that Steph was better than Jokic last year. Jokic was just missing his entire supporting cast.

And other than last year Steph has no arguments for best player in the world, because LeBron exists and was pretty clearly better through 2020.

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N. American sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

[MrBigShot]

Hey in fairness to eyeatoma he came out and gave Jokic his dues when denver won.

Now for the other guy on the other hand, using the all star game, a literal shootaround, as any sort of argument is some of the most wild stuff i've ever seen on realgm

He was as clear cut as Jokic is now.

I don't think it's clear cut that Steph was better than Jokic last year. Jokic was just missing his entire supporting cast.

And other than last year Steph has no arguments for best player in the world, because LeBron exists and was pretty clearly better through 2020.

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N Ameeican sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a far superior player, who averaged 30/11/9 on 48/37/72 in the finals to Steph's 23/5/4 on 40/40/93. MVP is a regular season award (as this season very clearly demonstrated), the best player in the world is determined come playoff time.

Cavs stint LeBron was always in another stratosphere than steph.

[moderndarwin]

Hey in fairness to eyeatoma he came out and gave Jokic his dues when denver won.

Now for the other guy on the other hand, using the all star game, a literal shootaround, as any sort of argument is some of the most wild stuff i've ever seen on realgm



I don't think it's clear cut that Steph was better than Jokic last year. Jokic was just missing his entire supporting cast.

And other than last year Steph has no arguments for best player in the world, because LeBron exists and was pretty clearly better through 2020.

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N Ameeican sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a superior player.

So he was superior to lebron the years he beat him? got it.

[MrBigShot]

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N Ameeican sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a superior player.

So he was superior to lebron the years he beat him? got it.

Compare their performances head to head in the finals and see who comes out ahead. The first time LeBron lost he was missing his 2nd and 3rd best player for basically the entirety of the series. The 2nd and 3rd time, Steph wasn't even the best performing player in the finals on his own team.

[CIN-C-STAR]

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a superior player.

So he was superior to lebron the years he beat him? got it.

Compare their performances head to head in the finals and see who comes out ahead. The first time LeBron lost he was missing his 2nd and 3rd best player for basically the entirety of the series. The 2nd and 3rd time, Steph wasn't even the best performing player in the finals on his own team.

I mean, if you want to define best player in the world as the best player in the Finals, that's fine, but it's not like that is the consensus definition.
It isn't even a common definition.
So maybe Steph has "no argument for best player in the world" by your very specialized, atypical definition, but if you include the rest of the world's definitions of best player, he definitely had an argument during those MVP seasons and certainly during his unanimous MVP season.

[_Joker]

Imagine actually being eyeatoma LOL

[QPR]

Imagine actually being eyeatoma LOL

Tbf he came back and took his lumps on several threads

[mkot]

The only thing that is holding him back from being greatness to the outside world is a championship. He just needs to win one and everyone will finally take notice and maybe put him in the Tim Duncan category of the next big "fundamental ".

Now people are saying he needs to win multiple championship to start the conversation.

I don't necessary disagree and luckily for him his team should be contending as long as their big 4 stay healthy.

[dhsilv2]

Hey in fairness to eyeatoma he came out and gave Jokic his dues when denver won.

Now for the other guy on the other hand, using the all star game, a literal shootaround, as any sort of argument is some of the most wild stuff i've ever seen on realgm



I don't think it's clear cut that Steph was better than Jokic last year. Jokic was just missing his entire supporting cast.

And other than last year Steph has no arguments for best player in the world, because LeBron exists and was pretty clearly better through 2020.

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N Ameeican sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a far superior player, who averaged 30/11/9 on 48/37/72 in the finals to Steph's 23/5/4 on 40/40/93. MVP is a regular season award (as this season very clearly demonstrated), the best player in the world is determined come playoff time.

Cavs stint LeBron was always in another stratosphere than steph.

If that stratosphere is below Curry, I agree...

[NO-KG-AI]

Call me when he makes it out of the West. I'm not impressed.

Trash take.

I was gonna come for Optms, but he came on a thread and said he's there to eat all his crow, like a man. That's what the real posters do baby. Got a strong take? Come eat it. Put respek on Optms name.

[dhsilv2]

Literally nobody was arguing for Jokic's inclusion at the time. This is revisionist history. The snubs everyone was talking about were Dwight and Klay.

I was. Shaq hadn’t accomplished that much more than Jokic by ‘96 but they had the foresight to include him back then. Anybody with a brain and eyes could see how brilliant of a player that Jokic was even before he started winning MVP’s.

Shaq was absolutely dominant his first few years in the league. It wasn't as obvious with Jokic back then, he had weight issues early in his career before he got into shape.

What freaking league are you watching? Jokic was a top 10 guy as a rookie. It's mind blowing how there are threads on this very forum with people asking if this guy would a game changer from the start and then there are people trying to claim "nobody knew this was coming". The reality is anyone watching from day one knew this guy was going to be an all timer.

[Inspektor1312]

Imagine actually being eyeatoma LOL

Tbf he came back and took his lumps on several threads

Yeah, props to the guy, I honestly thought he was a troll all along, but his eyes were finally opened this summer. Guess he was just blinded by his love for his guy.
That other Embiid Witness, Hussein on the other hand... Nowhere to be found, I'm actually concerned for his well being

[Sharkboy242]

That guy has been in hiding from the moment the 2nd round of the playoffs ended.

Both bebopdeluxe and GeorgeMarcus have gone missing since Celtics-Sixers game 7 Lol.

[BrianFitz]

Hey in fairness to eyeatoma he came out and gave Jokic his dues when denver won.

Now for the other guy on the other hand, using the all star game, a literal shootaround, as any sort of argument is some of the most wild stuff i've ever seen on realgm



I don't think it's clear cut that Steph was better than Jokic last year. Jokic was just missing his entire supporting cast.

And other than last year Steph has no arguments for best player in the world, because LeBron exists and was pretty clearly better through 2020.

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N Ameeican sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a far superior player, who averaged 30/11/9 on 48/37/72 in the finals to Steph's 23/5/4 on 40/40/93. MVP is a regular season award (as this season very clearly demonstrated), the best player in the world is determined come playoff time.

Cavs stint LeBron was always in another stratosphere than steph.

I don't agree with this at all. There was a window where Steph was above Lebron. And how does steph losing preclude him from being best player. There were MANY years Lebron was considered best player but didn't win the championship. I really don't get that argument.

You are saying that unanimous MVP on a dynasty team wasn't clear cut best player?

[Pelly24]

If you think Lebron was better I can see that, but no arguments for best player in the world??
He won B2B MVPs, the 2nd one unanimously, joining Gretzky and Brady as the only unanimous MVPs in major N Ameeican sports history.
That season, he was the only player ever to average more than 30 ppg in fewer than 35 mpg, and the first guard since MJ to score 30+ ppg on > 50% shooting from the field, and he did it with a high volume of 3s.
He also averaged 2.1 steals per game that season.
I think he unquestionably had a case that season as best in the world.

And the season ended with him losing while up 3-1, to a far superior player, who averaged 30/11/9 on 48/37/72 in the finals to Steph's 23/5/4 on 40/40/93. MVP is a regular season award (as this season very clearly demonstrated), the best player in the world is determined come playoff time.

Cavs stint LeBron was always in another stratosphere than steph.

I don't agree with this at all. There was a window where Steph was above Lebron. And how does steph losing preclude him from being best player. There were MANY years Lebron was considered best player but didn't win the championship. I really don't get that argument.

You are saying that unanimous MVP on a dynasty team wasn't clear cut best player?

TBH, I feel like journalists and talking heads and fans tried little cute things where they tried to anoint the next best player, and it was cool, but in the back of their minds, they always knew LeBron was better, and it even showed in their expectations for other guys. Steph, KD, Giannis (Giannis had Thebes argument at peak) all had arguments, but lebron was dragging very, very mediocre teams with not even a top 50 player next to him to 60 and 66-win seasons and dragging bad teams to the finals all by himself. Seriously, Larry highs and Big Z were averaging like 12 ppl on an average of 42% from the field or something back in 2007. Steph and KD were just never capable of that. Giannis was maybe capable, but he's never had to prove it because his teams have had Jrue and Khris Middleton. I don't see any of them getting the 2007 and 2015 or 2018 teams to the finals the way LeBron did, and no one else did either, and that's why folks weren't as hard on other players.

[Big J]

I was. Shaq hadn’t accomplished that much more than Jokic by ‘96 but they had the foresight to include him back then. Anybody with a brain and eyes could see how brilliant of a player that Jokic was even before he started winning MVP’s.

Shaq was absolutely dominant his first few years in the league. It wasn't as obvious with Jokic back then, he had weight issues early in his career before he got into shape.

What freaking league are you watching? Jokic was a top 10 guy as a rookie. It's mind blowing how there are threads on this very forum with people asking if this guy would a game changer from the start and then there are people trying to claim "nobody knew this was coming". The reality is anyone watching from day one knew this guy was going to be an all timer.

Yea, I'm sure that everyone knew the guy averaging 10 & 7 was going to be great. Jokic himself has even said that he never thought he'd be doing this.