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The Tim Connelly Thread (prev./still Fire Him)

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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#141 » by urinesane » Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:13 pm

SO_MONEY wrote:
shrink wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:I never said you need to know the result of a trade, I was making the point that when you risk everything (as explained by Baseline) and don't know, it should be a red flag. The certainty of results or risk assessment should be directly correlated to the amount you give up. I don't think this is controversial.

I disagree with this fundamentally. So let’s leave the name “Gobert” out and talk about the principle.

In decision-making, the certainty of results should be correlated with the cost, but also the size of the rewards. This is talking about the “home run swing.”

But let’s talk first about what we know, about where we are. I believe the 2022 Wolves over-achieved their talent by making the playoffs. They had a star in Towns, and a rising star in Ant, but the rest of their starters were worse than most competitors. They were a fun team, that was very lucky with their own health, and repeatedly facing teams when their stars were sick or injured. Worse, adding star-talent is tough for MIN, since stars aren’t begging to come here in free agency, or could force their way out at the earliest opportunity. Staying the course with the rotational players they gave up, in my view, was highly likely to put us back in the lottery, and keep Ant from adding to his playoff experience.

To me, MIN is exactly the type of team that needs to make home run swings, when a rare opportunity came up for them. Rebuilding with picks nearly every season for twenty years has been a pathway to mediocrity. I understand that you don’t like the price in future picks, and that’s fair, but I feel a high risk, high return trade is exactly the type of trade that the MIN franchise needed to take.


First off a risk assessment is a general term used across many industries to determine the likelihood of loss on an asset, loan, or investment. Assessing risk is essential for determining how worthwhile a specific investment is and the best process(es) to mitigate risk. It presents the upside reward compared to the risk profile.

So I covered reward.

Additionally, if people lived their lives giving up mass value for unknown and speculative rewards the fallout would be catastrophic. You give up the most when you have reason to believe a result will happen, something where there is low perceived risk, not for an unknown novel concept. Reward is factored in, but risk reduces value respective of reward. You can have a high reward deal where there are known expectations be it observational, data driven research or any other measurement which would make you confident the risk is worth the reward, then you can have a high reward deal where it is effectively based on... trust me bro... that is what the wolves did. And the two deals are not the same. You give up value for one and you reduce your stake in or completely avoid the other.



What did the Wolves lose? You keep using these vague concepts of "future flexibility" etc etc, but what did they REALLY lose out on by paying what they did for Gobert? Running it back with a team that probably had a ceiling of 1st rounder? Missing out on getting a higher lottery pick while not playing as many meaningful games?

Do you believe that what they gave up was the only path to championship contention? Let's go back to before the trade and try to simulate a different version of the multi-verse.

Let's say POBO SO_MONEY is hired in the offseason of 2022, what is your 5 year plan with the assets in place to make this team a contender?

My guess is that you are the type that likes to point out problems, but has no solutions. Critiquing something is infinitely easier than doing something, because you have no skin in the game and there are no consequences to being wrong.

The people that attempt things and fail get a lot more respect from me than the people simply watching and saying "I told ya so." while taking no risks.

The first type of person is how we get new stuff that we didn't imagine was possible... the 2nd is how we get Stephen A Smiths.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#142 » by younggunsmn » Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:41 pm

Klomp wrote:
younggunsmn wrote:He's got a lot of digging to do to get out of the hole he dug himself with the Gobert trade, but if he keeps making good decisions I'll stick with him.
I do think he's got an eye for talent and I like that he seems to value character/BBIQ and culture more than a lot of previous regimes.

That’s honestly a big thing to do with the Gobert trade though that gets forgotten…character/BBIQ and culture.

Everyone loved the trash talking and dawg mindset that Beverley and Vando brought, but I think it’s part of what Connelly was trying to correct. We talked a lot about how whining to the officials needed to stop, and Beverley was arguably the biggest culprit of that group. I think his influence is part of why Ant gets a little chirpy and has been near the top of the league in techs. Hoping Conley will rub off on him in a major way.


Character BBIQ and Culture? Gobert? They guy who punched a teammate in a huddle?
The guy who has all his teammate extremely frustrated with his utter lack of skill and IQ on offense?
The guy you can only play one defensive scheme with because he can't switch or close out on the perimeter?
The guy who spent an entire season using international summer play as an excuse for his poor season and bad back and then turns around and plays again ANYWAY in a meaningless odd numbered year?

Beverly wore out his welcome, but he was also appreciated here enough to be given an extension mid season.
Beasley and Russell needed to go, but we didnt need to trade for Gobert to be rid of them.
Vanderbilt was a huge part of our culture and defense and beloved by his teammates, maybe Ant's best friend on the team.

I'm done being gaslit by certain posters here about the Gobert trade.
This is how people feel about it outside our bubble here:

Read on Twitter


That's Nate Silver, who makes analytic models for a living.
Worst of all time may be hyperbole, but it was very very very bad.

And the opportunity cost goes well beyond just the 5 draft picks plus a swap.
1. There are the limitless possibilities of other or future trades we could have made with those draft picks, and that opportunity cost spans the next SIX Seasons.
This offseason alone Bradley Beal was had for peanuts.
2. There is the salary opportunity cost of Gobert's enormous contract.
Already this year it will most certainly cost us a MLE signing.
And this is still in a year where we can avoid the luxury tax, which will be impossible in the next 2 offseasons.
It may also cost us Prince or NAW.
The future pain is going to be much much worse and it looks like with the new CBA Gobert with his contract already is in negative value territory.

Something bad happened to our team. I think you are still stuck in the bargaining phase of your grief.
It's time to move on to acceptance.
Splitting hairs about what constitutes "all in" is disengenuous.

This was the one opportunity we had to add another big time player to a KAT/Ant/Jaden core.
The assets to do that are now gone and cannot be recovered.
If you refuse to accept a negative you will not be able to move on to identify the problem and find a solution.

On his last podcast Dane was talking about the trade being a D- and having a hard time reconciling how bad that trade was with the other positive moves Connelly has made.
They even spent time speculating as to whether he was forced/pressured into it by ownership.

If Connelly keeps making good moves going forward I will support him, but the biggest move hasn't worked out close to the way he hoped. I think that has been widely acknowledged by now.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#143 » by SO_MONEY » Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:02 pm

urinesane wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
shrink wrote:I disagree with this fundamentally. So let’s leave the name “Gobert” out and talk about the principle.

In decision-making, the certainty of results should be correlated with the cost, but also the size of the rewards. This is talking about the “home run swing.”

But let’s talk first about what we know, about where we are. I believe the 2022 Wolves over-achieved their talent by making the playoffs. They had a star in Towns, and a rising star in Ant, but the rest of their starters were worse than most competitors. They were a fun team, that was very lucky with their own health, and repeatedly facing teams when their stars were sick or injured. Worse, adding star-talent is tough for MIN, since stars aren’t begging to come here in free agency, or could force their way out at the earliest opportunity. Staying the course with the rotational players they gave up, in my view, was highly likely to put us back in the lottery, and keep Ant from adding to his playoff experience.

To me, MIN is exactly the type of team that needs to make home run swings, when a rare opportunity came up for them. Rebuilding with picks nearly every season for twenty years has been a pathway to mediocrity. I understand that you don’t like the price in future picks, and that’s fair, but I feel a high risk, high return trade is exactly the type of trade that the MIN franchise needed to take.


First off a risk assessment is a general term used across many industries to determine the likelihood of loss on an asset, loan, or investment. Assessing risk is essential for determining how worthwhile a specific investment is and the best process(es) to mitigate risk. It presents the upside reward compared to the risk profile.

So I covered reward.

Additionally, if people lived their lives giving up mass value for unknown and speculative rewards the fallout would be catastrophic. You give up the most when you have reason to believe a result will happen, something where there is low perceived risk, not for an unknown novel concept. Reward is factored in, but risk reduces value respective of reward. You can have a high reward deal where there are known expectations be it observational, data driven research or any other measurement which would make you confident the risk is worth the reward, then you can have a high reward deal where it is effectively based on... trust me bro... that is what the wolves did. And the two deals are not the same. You give up value for one and you reduce your stake in or completely avoid the other.



What did the Wolves lose? You keep using these vague concepts of "future flexibility" etc etc, but what did they REALLY lose out on by paying what they did for Gobert? Running it back with a team that probably had a ceiling of 1st rounder? Missing out on getting a higher lottery pick while not playing as many meaningful games?

Do you believe that what they gave up was the only path to championship contention? Let's go back to before the trade and try to simulate a different version of the multi-verse.

Let's say POBO SO_MONEY is hired in the offseason of 2022, what is your 5 year plan with the assets in place to make this team a contender?

My guess is that you are the type that likes to point out problems, but has no solutions. Critiquing something is infinitely easier than doing something, because you have no skin in the game and there are no consequences to being wrong.

The people that attempt things and fail get a lot more respect from me than the people simply watching and saying "I told ya so." while taking no risks.

The first type of person is how we get new stuff that we didn't imagine was possible... the 2nd is how we get Stephen A Smiths.


What did we lose? Well, I didn't say we lost anything, but for loss, the possibilities are endless if you explore them. Touching on a few risks, a failed experiment, loss of outgoing trade value, loss of trade value of incoming assets, loss of value of existing assets, loss of flexibility, loss of opportunity cost in general.

You are right I don't know how to get out of the hole we dug ourselves, it is impossible to get back to where we were. The quickest restorative path is to trade KAT I don't know what that could bring back so any plan I would put forward would be worthless.

You can absolutely accuse me of not offering solutions, maybe it is somewhat true but I don't think you have either if I am the test subject. Just today I put a list of potential targets in a Prince trade if we are to trade him. I will post trades from time to time, but don't get to wrapped up in that stuff because situations are fluid and information is limited. I read mock trades on here and it comes off very ADHD as a result, but they do entertain me, cause me to think, so respect to people who like to do that. My big thing is sticking to the order of operations, doing the right things at the right time and avoiding setbacks in this regard... the rest is window dressing.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#144 » by shrink » Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:40 pm

I listened to today’s Flagrant Howls podcast, and it reminded me so much like our forum right now.

It unsurprisingly starts with both hosts saying just how great it is to have Naz back, how he could be our Udonis Haslem heart of the team, and how he might be on the Mount Rushmore of most beloved Wolves. Then they bring up Jon Krawsinski’s behind-the-scenes Athletic article, where Connelly was bargaining hard but the two sides were millions apart. Then a voice came from on high, “Get it done.” It was Glen Taylor.

Suddenly, the host started talking about how much he hated Taylor as an owner, and how he shouldn’t be an owner that interferes. I agree with the principle (and for the record, he interferes maybe the least of any NBA owner!), but because he’s so invested in hating Taylor, he suddenly attacks an outcome he admits he loves. And simultaneously, he must love Connelly, because he gives him full credit for every good move he’s made, but believes that the Gobert trade must have been forced on him by ownership making a splash.

I don’t know how much of this is true, but neither does he. What frustrates me is when wolves fandom, and this board, get so divisive that we see everything as black or white, depending on which version of reality we chose to follow. I find myself starting to drift that way. The bottom line though is that we are all fans here, and we all want to see the Wolves do well. Different opinions are welcomed, and they make the forum interesting, but we should look at each decision honestly and independently, to have the best discussions.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#145 » by Dewey » Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:02 am

Blame whoever you want…

McD, ANT, and Reid (all) need to prove they are worth building around.

KAT and Gobert (both) need to prove they are NOT massive overpays.

Both need to happen… the assets we traded away are minimal IF these 5 are worth their hype. If the experiment fails, these are the people you can rip on all you want. Not one of them … all or none.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#146 » by urinesane » Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:13 am

SO_MONEY wrote:
urinesane wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
First off a risk assessment is a general term used across many industries to determine the likelihood of loss on an asset, loan, or investment. Assessing risk is essential for determining how worthwhile a specific investment is and the best process(es) to mitigate risk. It presents the upside reward compared to the risk profile.

So I covered reward.

Additionally, if people lived their lives giving up mass value for unknown and speculative rewards the fallout would be catastrophic. You give up the most when you have reason to believe a result will happen, something where there is low perceived risk, not for an unknown novel concept. Reward is factored in, but risk reduces value respective of reward. You can have a high reward deal where there are known expectations be it observational, data driven research or any other measurement which would make you confident the risk is worth the reward, then you can have a high reward deal where it is effectively based on... trust me bro... that is what the wolves did. And the two deals are not the same. You give up value for one and you reduce your stake in or completely avoid the other.



What did the Wolves lose? You keep using these vague concepts of "future flexibility" etc etc, but what did they REALLY lose out on by paying what they did for Gobert? Running it back with a team that probably had a ceiling of 1st rounder? Missing out on getting a higher lottery pick while not playing as many meaningful games?

Do you believe that what they gave up was the only path to championship contention? Let's go back to before the trade and try to simulate a different version of the multi-verse.

Let's say POBO SO_MONEY is hired in the offseason of 2022, what is your 5 year plan with the assets in place to make this team a contender?

My guess is that you are the type that likes to point out problems, but has no solutions. Critiquing something is infinitely easier than doing something, because you have no skin in the game and there are no consequences to being wrong.

The people that attempt things and fail get a lot more respect from me than the people simply watching and saying "I told ya so." while taking no risks.

The first type of person is how we get new stuff that we didn't imagine was possible... the 2nd is how we get Stephen A Smiths.


What did we lose? Well, I didn't say we lost anything, but for loss, the possibilities are endless if you explore them. Touching on a few risks, a failed experiment, loss of outgoing trade value, loss of trade value of incoming assets, loss of value of existing assets, loss of flexibility, loss of opportunity cost in general.

You are right I don't know how to get out of the hole we dug ourselves, it is impossible to get back to where we were. The quickest restorative path is to trade KAT I don't know what that could bring back so any plan I would put forward would be worthless.

You can absolutely accuse me of not offering solutions, maybe it is somewhat true but I don't think you have either if I am the test subject. Just today I put a list of potential targets in a Prince trade if we are to trade him. I will post trades from time to time, but don't get to wrapped up in that stuff because situations are fluid and information is limited. I read mock trades on here and it comes off very ADHD as a result, but they do entertain me, cause me to think, so respect to people who like to do that. My big thing is sticking to the order of operations, doing the right things at the right time and avoiding setbacks in this regard... the rest is window dressing.


So with you it's clearly a FOMO situation. You're afraid we've missed out on something by making this deal, my question is "What did we miss out on?" in specifics. Not "potentially this that and the other" things that are quantifiable right now that you are using to justify your position on the matter. Otherwise you're mad about something, but you're not quite sure what it is (other than what was done was wrong).

When it comes to you as the POBO, my question was meant for you to go back before the Gobert trade and choose the right path in your opinion, not "how to get us out of this" current scenario. How would you have come in putting yourself in Tim Connelly's place and changed the team?
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#147 » by SO_MONEY » Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:55 am

urinesane wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
urinesane wrote:

What did the Wolves lose? You keep using these vague concepts of "future flexibility" etc etc, but what did they REALLY lose out on by paying what they did for Gobert? Running it back with a team that probably had a ceiling of 1st rounder? Missing out on getting a higher lottery pick while not playing as many meaningful games?

Do you believe that what they gave up was the only path to championship contention? Let's go back to before the trade and try to simulate a different version of the multi-verse.

Let's say POBO SO_MONEY is hired in the offseason of 2022, what is your 5 year plan with the assets in place to make this team a contender?

My guess is that you are the type that likes to point out problems, but has no solutions. Critiquing something is infinitely easier than doing something, because you have no skin in the game and there are no consequences to being wrong.

The people that attempt things and fail get a lot more respect from me than the people simply watching and saying "I told ya so." while taking no risks.

The first type of person is how we get new stuff that we didn't imagine was possible... the 2nd is how we get Stephen A Smiths.


What did we lose? Well, I didn't say we lost anything, but for loss, the possibilities are endless if you explore them. Touching on a few risks, a failed experiment, loss of outgoing trade value, loss of trade value of incoming assets, loss of value of existing assets, loss of flexibility, loss of opportunity cost in general.

You are right I don't know how to get out of the hole we dug ourselves, it is impossible to get back to where we were. The quickest restorative path is to trade KAT I don't know what that could bring back so any plan I would put forward would be worthless.

You can absolutely accuse me of not offering solutions, maybe it is somewhat true but I don't think you have either if I am the test subject. Just today I put a list of potential targets in a Prince trade if we are to trade him. I will post trades from time to time, but don't get to wrapped up in that stuff because situations are fluid and information is limited. I read mock trades on here and it comes off very ADHD as a result, but they do entertain me, cause me to think, so respect to people who like to do that. My big thing is sticking to the order of operations, doing the right things at the right time and avoiding setbacks in this regard... the rest is window dressing.


So you don't know what we lost, but it's clearly a FOMO situation. You're afraid we've missed out on something by making this deal, my question is "What did we miss out on?".

When it comes to you as the POBO, my question was meant for you to go back before the Gobert trade and choose the right path in your opinion, not "how to get us out of this" current scenario. How would you have come in putting yourself in Tim Connelly's place and changed the team?


I listed things I think we are losing, risks we took that are not paying off. Some people have hope this will work even though it didn't before. I don't think I can convince thoes people they have to either face it on their own time or I am wrong. Time will tell on that front, but I am of the school where you act too soon, rather than too late. I is why I to many sound way out there in some of this because, if people are talking about something it is probably too late.

My plan, going back would have been to try and trade up to get Jalen Williams. I would have offered a swap and future 1st. I would have targeted two more players who I felt would retain value using the other 3 picks, Beasley, DLo, Beverly and filler. The Murray trade was the closest to what we know was out there, I would have matched that deal asset for asset if no prior deal was found... it would cost an extra pick but leave a few assets. The worst case situation I think Murray cost you one 1st if you pivot. You probably still have DLo and Beasley left, Beverly and Leandro would be the likely sub for value for Gallo, both would be waived.
Who knows if you could pull it off, Mitchell would have been a fallback, I would have called on SGA.

That would leave if successful

Murray/jmac
ANT/Nowell
Williams/Prince
McDaniels/Vando
Towns/Reid

DLo- trade
Beasley- trade

That is before FA. I don't have any major complaints with TC on that front, probably would have targeted something other than Rivers. Anderson was a no-brainer.

The only thing I feel the team got right was that last year was a year to get aggressive with trades. But they should have targeted guards and wings and not what they did.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#148 » by urinesane » Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:19 am

SO_MONEY wrote:
urinesane wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
What did we lose? Well, I didn't say we lost anything, but for loss, the possibilities are endless if you explore them. Touching on a few risks, a failed experiment, loss of outgoing trade value, loss of trade value of incoming assets, loss of value of existing assets, loss of flexibility, loss of opportunity cost in general.

You are right I don't know how to get out of the hole we dug ourselves, it is impossible to get back to where we were. The quickest restorative path is to trade KAT I don't know what that could bring back so any plan I would put forward would be worthless.

You can absolutely accuse me of not offering solutions, maybe it is somewhat true but I don't think you have either if I am the test subject. Just today I put a list of potential targets in a Prince trade if we are to trade him. I will post trades from time to time, but don't get to wrapped up in that stuff because situations are fluid and information is limited. I read mock trades on here and it comes off very ADHD as a result, but they do entertain me, cause me to think, so respect to people who like to do that. My big thing is sticking to the order of operations, doing the right things at the right time and avoiding setbacks in this regard... the rest is window dressing.


So you don't know what we lost, but it's clearly a FOMO situation. You're afraid we've missed out on something by making this deal, my question is "What did we miss out on?".

When it comes to you as the POBO, my question was meant for you to go back before the Gobert trade and choose the right path in your opinion, not "how to get us out of this" current scenario. How would you have come in putting yourself in Tim Connelly's place and changed the team?


I listed things I think we are losing, risks we took that are not paying off. Some people have hope this will work even though it didn't before. I don't think I can convince thoes people they have to either face it on their own time or I am wrong. Time will tell on that front, but I am of the school where you act too soon, rather than too late. I is why I to many sound way out there in some of this because, if people are talking about something it is probably too late.

My plan, going back would have been to try and trade up to get Jalen Williams. I would have offered a swap and future 1st. I would have targeted two more players who I felt would retain value using the other 3 picks, Beasley, DLo, Beverly and filler. The Murray trade was the closest to what we know was out there, I would have matched that deal asset for asset if no prior deal was found... it would cost an extra pick but leave a few assets. The worst case situation I think Murray cost you one 1st if you pivot. You probably still have DLo and Beasley left, Beverly and Leandro would be the likely sub for value for Gallo, both would be waived.
Who knows if you could pull it off, Mitchell would have been a fallback, I would have called on SGA.

That would leave if successful

Murray/jmac
ANT/Nowell
Williams/Prince
McDaniels/Vando
Towns/Reid

DLo- trade
Beasley- trade

That is before FA. I don't have any major complaints with TC on that front, probably would have targeted something other than Rivers. Anderson was a no-brainer.

The only thing I feel the team got right was that last year was a year to get aggressive with trades. But they should have targeted guards and wings and not what they did.


Do you think that team makes the playoffs if KAT is out as many games as he was this season?
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#149 » by SO_MONEY » Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:39 am

urinesane wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
urinesane wrote:
So you don't know what we lost, but it's clearly a FOMO situation. You're afraid we've missed out on something by making this deal, my question is "What did we miss out on?".

When it comes to you as the POBO, my question was meant for you to go back before the Gobert trade and choose the right path in your opinion, not "how to get us out of this" current scenario. How would you have come in putting yourself in Tim Connelly's place and changed the team?


I listed things I think we are losing, risks we took that are not paying off. Some people have hope this will work even though it didn't before. I don't think I can convince thoes people they have to either face it on their own time or I am wrong. Time will tell on that front, but I am of the school where you act too soon, rather than too late. I is why I to many sound way out there in some of this because, if people are talking about something it is probably too late.

My plan, going back would have been to try and trade up to get Jalen Williams. I would have offered a swap and future 1st. I would have targeted two more players who I felt would retain value using the other 3 picks, Beasley, DLo, Beverly and filler. The Murray trade was the closest to what we know was out there, I would have matched that deal asset for asset if no prior deal was found... it would cost an extra pick but leave a few assets. The worst case situation I think Murray cost you one 1st if you pivot. You probably still have DLo and Beasley left, Beverly and Leandro would be the likely sub for value for Gallo, both would be waived.
Who knows if you could pull it off, Mitchell would have been a fallback, I would have called on SGA.

That would leave if successful

Murray/jmac
ANT/Nowell
Williams/Prince
McDaniels/Vando
Towns/Reid

DLo- trade
Beasley- trade

That is before FA. I don't have any major complaints with TC on that front, probably would have targeted something other than Rivers. Anderson was a no-brainer.

The only thing I feel the team got right was that last year was a year to get aggressive with trades. But they should have targeted guards and wings and not what they did.


Do you think that team makes the playoffs if KAT is out as many games as he was this season?


Likely.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#150 » by Baseline81 » Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:51 am

urinesane wrote:Do you think that team makes the playoffs if KAT is out as many games as he was this season?

Why does that matter?

Do you think by missing the playoffs Edwards would demand a trade? Or that he wouldn't develop?

And if it went south, the Wolves may have actually been in Portland's spot -- moving up in the lottery.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#151 » by younggunsmn » Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:51 am

shrink wrote:I listened to today’s Flagrant Howls podcast, and it reminded me so much like our forum right now.

It unsurprisingly starts with both hosts saying just how great it is to have Naz back, how he could be our Udonis Haslem heart of the team, and how he might be on the Mount Rushmore of most beloved Wolves. Then they bring up Jon Krawsinski’s behind-the-scenes Athletic article, where Connelly was bargaining hard but the two sides were millions apart. Then a voice came from on high, “Get it done.” It was Glen Taylor.

Suddenly, the host started talking about how much he hated Taylor as an owner, and how he shouldn’t be an owner that interferes. I agree with the principle (and for the record, he interferes maybe the least of any NBA owner!), but because he’s so invested in hating Taylor, he suddenly attacks an outcome he admits he loves. And simultaneously, he must love Connelly, because he gives him full credit for every good move he’s made, but believes that the Gobert trade must have been forced on him by ownership making a splash.

I don’t know how much of this is true, but neither does he. What frustrates me is when wolves fandom, and this board, get so divisive that we see everything as black or white, depending on which version of reality we chose to follow. I find myself drifting that way myself. The bottom line though is that we are all fans here, and we all want to see the Wolves do well. Different opinions are welcomed, and they make the forum interesting, but we should look at each decision honestly and independently, to have the best discussions.


Shrink you went on for several pages with a strawman argument that basically boiled down to:
"But we didn't give up EVERYTHING so its okay". Classic bargaining.
I think you are trying harder to convince yourself than you are to convince others.
Getting so triggered over the semantics of what constitutes "Everything".
That's not constructive discourse.

I'm trying hard to give praise when I see us do good things (and fortunately there have been moves post Gobert trade that deserve a lot of praise).

We made the trade in the summer of 2022 and will not be able to trade another future 1st rounder until 2031.
That's 9 years of not being able to offer future 1st round picks in trade.
That's a colossal opportunity cost loss.
We have 3 players who will cost an extra ~60 million dollars in '24 compared to the coming season.
Gobert will make 44 million in '24 and 47 million in '25, and may no longer be moveable.
That's a big deal.
Are our new owners prepared to pay more than 50 million dollars in tax in '24 and double that in '25?

Yes we didnt give up Miles Bridges or Cam Johnson. But Kevin Durant is tiers above Rudy Gobert.
It was still a very bad trade for Phoenix.
Had we given up the Gobert haul plus Jaden McDaniels for Durant instead of Gobert, it still would have been a bad trade.
We may have actually had a shot at being title contenders though.

I don't agree with owners interfering, especially a numbskull with Taylor's history of bad ideas, but I agree with him here.
Quibbling over a couple million/yr is not worth letting Naz hit unrestricted free agency, where 18-20 million is not out of the question. The CBA did us a small favor in setting a cap on what we could offer on an extension and it was probably good strategy by Connelly to not just offer that right away. But maybe Connelly would have rather spent Naz's money elsewhere too, thus the lowball offers.

I for one don't believe the Gobert trade was forced on Connelly by ownership.
But this is the speculation that happens when you try to reconcile a GM with a pretty good track record making a really really bad trade. I think he
a) didnt do enough homework on Gobert, and did not honestly look at his offensive limitations or properly judge his contract.
b) did not value his own assets enough. Both draft picks and salary filler.

Going into last offseason my number one priority was for us to trade D-Lo and upgrade the point guard position.
And that could have been done rather painlessly. Malcolm Brogdon went for a late 1st and a bad contract.
Conley could have been had.

Man I wish Conley were 5 years younger. The way he played the last 1/3 of the season for us, the improvement he brought with turnovers and defense, the leadership. It's what has me most hopeful for next year.
Much more impactful than the Gobert addition IMHO and without the significant downside on one side of the ball.

Not making a massive roster overhaul is a good idea this offseason, I like holding onto the things we found late in the year last year like NAW's defense and Naz as a bench microwave. Hopefully we can build on that next year like we should have after we lost to the Grizzlies and overpaid massively in order to fix one deficient area.

But the 2 big men with massive contracts situation has an expiration date.
No matter how much you like KAT and Gobert.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#152 » by urinesane » Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:56 am

Baseline81 wrote:
urinesane wrote:Do you think that team makes the playoffs if KAT is out as many games as he was this season?

Why does that matter?

Do you think by missing the playoffs Edwards would demand a trade? Or that he wouldn't develop?

And if it went south, the Wolves may have actually been in Portland's spot -- moving up in the lottery.


If people are worried about Ant's prime like they certainly seem to be when crying about the Gobert trade (and lack of KAT trade), they certainly should also be worried about Ant not getting to the playoffs early in his career.

Is it a coincidence that he has made massive leaps two years in a row where they are playing meaningful games the entire season? Maybe, but I think it matters longterm for a player to have success early, especially in a market like ours, otherwise the grass starts looking greener much faster than it should.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#153 » by urinesane » Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:02 am

younggunsmn wrote:Shrink you went on for several pages with a strawman argument that basically boiled down to:
"But we didn't give up EVERYTHING so its okay". Classic bargaining.
I think you are trying harder to convince yourself than you are to convince others.
Getting so triggered over the semantics of what constitutes "Everything".
That's not constructive discourse.


How is that a strawman? Isn't a strawman when you misrepresent someone else's argument and then argue against it?

People have said SEVERAL times that we gave up EVERYTHING in that trade. I and several others have pointed out the assets that they still have (and the point that plenty of things can change and more picks can be acquired in the future). If people want to be hyperbolic in order to push their opinions, that's one thing, but don't get mad when people call them out on it.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#154 » by Baseline81 » Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:02 am

urinesane wrote:If people are worried about Ant's prime like they certainly seem to be when crying about the Gobert trade (and lack of KAT trade), they certainly should also be worried about Ant not getting to the playoffs early in his career.

Is it a coincidence that he has made massive leaps two years in a row where they are playing meaningful games the entire season? Maybe, but I think it matters longterm for a player to have success early, especially in a market like ours, otherwise the grass starts looking greener much faster than it should.

Since Edwards has entered the NBA, he's proven to be a determined talent. Hence, his development/improvement, in my opinion, would have come regardless. I look at McDaniels in the same light.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#155 » by shrink » Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:36 am

urinesane wrote:
younggunsmn wrote:Shrink you went on for several pages with a strawman argument that basically boiled down to:
"But we didn't give up EVERYTHING so its okay". Classic bargaining.
I think you are trying harder to convince yourself than you are to convince others.
Getting so triggered over the semantics of what constitutes "Everything".
That's not constructive discourse.
How is that a strawman? Isn't a strawman when you misrepresent someone else's argument and then argue against it?

People have said SEVERAL times that we gave up EVERYTHING in that trade. I and several others have pointed out the assets that they still have (and the point that plenty of things can change and more picks can be acquired in the future). If people want to be hyperbolic in order to push their opinions, that's one thing, but don't get mad when people call them out on it.

LOL! YM, you should learn what a strawman argument is, if you’re going to accuse others of it.

People that oppose the trade and say “everything” are, at best, using hyperbole, and at worst, flat out …. about what we gave up in the trade. For example, would you have rather given up Ant, or the picks? If you say “the picks” we already have given up less than half our assets. Jaden, KAT, Naz reduce the percentage further. “Everything” doesn’t equal, say, “20%” of our assets, by any stretch of the imagination. I get that I’m more of a stickler for words than most, but I think no constructive dialogue is going to happen when people stretch the truth to try to make a point - it should stand on the facts alone if it’s worthwhile.

So_Money said he was using hyperbole, and I’ve said that I would be fine with the word “overpaying” so I think we reached an agreement for better dialog in the future.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#156 » by shrink » Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:56 am

Baseline81 wrote:
urinesane wrote:Do you think that team makes the playoffs if KAT is out as many games as he was this season?

Why does that matter?

Do you think by missing the playoffs Edwards would demand a trade? Or that he wouldn't develop?

We know that making the playoffs to have Ant play in meaningful games is Connelly’s goal - he has flat out said it a few times.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#157 » by Baseline81 » Tue Jun 27, 2023 3:20 am

shrink wrote:We know that making the playoffs to have Ant play in meaningful games is Connelly’s goal - he has flat out said it a few times.

Why are we bringing Connelly into this? urinesane posed a question to SO_MONEY, asking him what he would have done as the GM. I simply responded to that.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#158 » by cmoss84 » Tue Jun 27, 2023 3:33 am

I'm interested to know people's thoughts on the biggest asset we gave up in the Gobert trade. Any feedback is appreciated.
1st round picks? (Mid to late)
Kessler?
Vanderbilt?
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#159 » by younggunsmn » Tue Jun 27, 2023 3:40 am

shrink wrote:
urinesane wrote:
younggunsmn wrote:Shrink you went on for several pages with a strawman argument that basically boiled down to:
"But we didn't give up EVERYTHING so its okay". Classic bargaining.
I think you are trying harder to convince yourself than you are to convince others.
Getting so triggered over the semantics of what constitutes "Everything".
That's not constructive discourse.
How is that a strawman? Isn't a strawman when you misrepresent someone else's argument and then argue against it?

People have said SEVERAL times that we gave up EVERYTHING in that trade. I and several others have pointed out the assets that they still have (and the point that plenty of things can change and more picks can be acquired in the future). If people want to be hyperbolic in order to push their opinions, that's one thing, but don't get mad when people call them out on it.

LOL! YM, you should learn what a strawman argument is, if you’re going to accuse others of it.

People that oppose the trade and say “everything” are, at best, using hyperbole, and at worst, flat out …. about what we gave up in the trade. For example, would you have rather given up Ant, or the picks? If you say “the picks” we already have given up less than half our assets. Jaden, KAT, Naz reduce the percentage further. “Everything” doesn’t equal, say, “20%” of our assets, by any stretch of the imagination. I get that I’m more of a stickler for words than most, but I think no constructive dialogue is going to happen when people stretch the truth to try to make a point - it should stand on the facts alone if it’s worthwhile.

So_Money said he was using hyperbole, and I’ve said that I would be fine with the word “overpaying” so I think we reached an agreement for better dialog in the future.


You picked the most extreme position out of the stream of opinions you could find, made the most extreme interpretation, latched onto it, and then argued against it because you have no counter for a more detailed, nuanced argument.
It's dishonest, and its is a big part of what is wrong with modern discourse on social media.
It's just an intellectual Bully looking for a skinny kid to beat on.
And then you badly misrepresented it.
You are every bit as guilty as someone using (oh no, honey hide the kids) hyperbole.

KG made a claim a few pages back Gobert was a top 10 offensive player.
I didn't latch onto it and argue for 5 pages. I didnt even bother responding.
Hot takes are hot takes.

So Money was trying to make an analogy to business/risk assessment about uncertainty of outcomes, about how Gobert elevating us to a contender (however you choose to measure that) was a very uncertain outcome (which has thus far not materialized).
Him even making the team better than the previous season was an uncertain outcome.

The value you traded in return for that outcome can eventually reduce to zero in such a scenario.
That's what is meant by losing everything.
You have nothing left for the assets you gave up.
Worse, you owe future assets.
You get zero value where before you held value.

Had we traded "everything" for Gobert, he would have been the only one left on the team.
That's clearly not what was meant, you latched onto it anyway.
That's the definition of a strawman.

Why do I bother wasting my time on this?
I want the Gobert trade gaslighting to stop.
People have the right to be negative about the team if they want.
It was a bad trade. We got fleeced at a bare minimum.
Where do we go from here?
I want to see us get to that point.
The local guys who get paid to cover the team are already there.

Because I see two or three people so dug in that it will break something inside them to admit they were wrong.
And I'm sick of the lashing out.
And I'm sick of talking about Gobert. It bums me out.
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Re: The Fire Tim Connelly Thread 

Post#160 » by younggunsmn » Tue Jun 27, 2023 3:47 am

Note30 wrote:You're heavily overvaluing Gobert. He's gonna get exposed in any switching matchup. Like almost every playoff series I've seen him play.

He also is an offensive liability unless our plan is to just park Towns in the corner and have him shoot 3's and then run P&R with Gobert.


From last July.
Prophecy.

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