Pre-RealGM 100 Personal Lists, 2023 edition

[Doctor MJ]

It's been requested we make a thread for our personal lists before we do the RealGM 100, so here it is.

Feel free to post or not to post.
Feel free to give a complete list or just a partial list.
Feel free to post whether or not you're likely to participate in the project.

[rk2023]

I’ll be participating. Unsure about specifics, at the moment - but have general ideas like 80-90% confidently. Will add to this thread incrementally.

[Doctor MJ]

So, all the way back in April I made a post going through the 1960 RealGM HOF candidates, speaking to them, and ranking them. I had intended to do this all the way to current players, and but while I do have some of these written, I came to realize I just didn't have time to do write-ups of similar quality for all the future eras.

So what I'm going to do instead is give the lists here, and people can use or not use them, ask questions on weird choices or not.

One thing though: My intention with this was not to make one big list, but rather to put the focus era by era. While I have since gone though and made one big list, I honestly don't want to talk about that list right now, so I'm not going to post it.

Why don't I want to talk about it? Because I think the project itself is the place where the no-holds-barred discussion is meant to be. By contrast, when we limit things to simply comparing contemporaries, I think some things can come out that may not come out in the 100.

So without further ado, here's what I've got to share:

1960
1. George Mikan
2. Bob Davies
3. Arnie Risen
4. Jim Pollard
5. Slater Martin
6. Paul Seymour
7. Vern Mikkelsen
8. Bobby Wanzer
9. Ed Macauley
10. Neil Johnston
11. Harry Gallatin
12. Sweetwater Clifton
13. George Yardley
14. Alex Groza
15. Joe Fulks
16. Maurice Stokes

1965
1. Bob Pettit
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Paul Arizin
4. Al Cervi
5. Bill Sharman
6. Larry Foust
7. Carl Braun
8. Tom Heinsohn
9. Max Zaslofsky
10. Frank Ramsey
11. Clyde Lovellette
12. Kenny Sears
13. Gene Shue

1970
1. Bill Russell
2. Cliff Hagan
3. Sam Jones
4. Bob Cousy
5. Larry Costello
6. Tom Gola
7. KC Jones
8. Jack Twyman
9. Rudy LaRusso
10. Richie Guerin
11. Red Kerr
12. Willie Naulls

1975
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Jerry West
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Willis Reed
6. Zelmo Beaty
7. Hal Greer
8. Chet Walker
9. Lenny Wilkens
10. Dave DeBusschere
11. Bailey Howell
12. Dick Barnett
13. Jerry Lucas
14. Gus Johnson
15. Walt Bellamy

1980
1. Walt Frazier
2. Rick Barry
3. John Havlicek
4. Connie Hawkins
5. Mel Daniels
6. Billy Cunningham
7. Roger Brown
8. Gail Goodrich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Louie Dampier
11. Nate Thurmond
12. Pete Maravich

1985
1. Dave Cowens
2. Wes Unseld
3. Elvin Hayes
4. Tiny Archibald
5. Bob Dandridge
6. Bob Lanier
7. Dan Issel
8. George McGinnis
9. David Thompson
10. Paul Westphal
11. Spencer Haywood

1990
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Artis Gilmore
4. George Gervin
5. Bobby Jones
6. Bill Walton
7. Bob McAdoo
8. Dennis Johnson
9. Marques Johnson
10. Gus Williams

1995
1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Kevin McHale
4. Isiah Thomas
5. James Worthy
6. Sidney Moncrief
7. Larry Nance
8. Mo Cheeks
9. Bill Laimbeer
10. Jack Sikma
11. Alex English
12. Bernard King

2000
1. Magic Johnson
2. Charles Barkley
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Robert Parish
5. Dennis Rodman
6. Kevin Johnson
7. Joe Dumars
8. Buck Williams
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Mark Price
11. Mark Eaton

2005
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. David Robinson
5. Scottie Pippen
6. Reggie Miller
7. John Stockton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Chris Mullin
10. Terry Porter
11. Horace Grant
12. Shawn Kemp
13. Tim Hardaway

2010
1. Gary Payton
2. Dikembe Mutombo
3. Alonzo Mourning
4. Penny Hardaway
5. Vlade Divac
6. Allen Iverson
7. Chris Webber
8. Toni Kukoc
9. Terry Cummings
10. Derek Harper
11. Mookie Blaylock

2015
1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Steve Nash
3. Jason Kidd
4. Ray Allen
5. Ben Wallace
6. Chauncey Billups
7. Rasheed Wallace
8. Grant Hill
9. Shawn Marion
10. Baron Davis
11. Tracy McGrady
12. Sam Cassell
13. Jermaine O'Neal

2020
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Paul Pierce
8. Tony Parker
9. Chris Bosh
10. Vince Carter

Active Players in 2020 who received votes
1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Draymond Green
8. James Harden
9. Pau Gasol
10. Russell Westbrook
11. Dwight Howard
12. LaMarcus Aldridge

Likely Candidates among other Active Players
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Anthony Davis
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Damian Lillard
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Joel Embiid
7. Al Horford
8. Kyle Lowry
9. Rudy Gobert
10. Devin Booker
11. Luka Doncic

[AEnigma]

Will probably stick to tiers for this exercise, in the sense that I am more open to discussion for changing ranks within a tier than changing the tier placement entirely (although this becomes much less strict as we go down the list).

Tier 1
Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Lebron James

Tier 2
Hakeem Olajuwon, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan

Tier 3
Magic Johnson, Shaquille O’Neal, Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 4
Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird

Tier 5
Dirk Nowitzki, Julius Erving, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Steph Curry

Tier 6
Chris Paul, David Robinson, Jerry West, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash
I expect some comments on the tier separation for West and Oscar, so preemptively: it matters a lot that Oscar played 7000 more minutes and essentially only missed one game (1972 Conference Finals Game 6) in the postseason.

Tier 7
Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Giannis Antetokounmpo, James Harden, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen

Tier 7.5 (deciding)
Nikola Jokic, George Mikan
I do find it notable that Jokic’s career stacks up well against 2017-23 Giannis — but Giannis has decent value added seasons beyond that, and I am not sure if I would have only 2017-23 Giannis in Tier 7 either.

Tier 8
Artis Gilmore, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, Reggie Miller, Rick Barry

Tier 9
Elgin Baylor, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Walt Frazier

Tier 9.5 (deciding)
Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard

Tier 10
Bob Lanier, Clyde Drexler, Dave Cowens, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale, Ray Allen

Think that brings us to 50. Might update this with the next clusters when the Project is in the 40s.

[70sFan]

So, all the way back in April I made a post going through the 1960 RealGM HOF candidates, speaking to them, and ranking them. I had intended to do this all the way to current players, and but while I do have some of these written, I came to realize I just didn't have time to do write-ups of similar quality for all the future eras.

So what I'm going to do instead is give the lists here, and people can use or not use them, ask questions on weird choices or not.

One thing though: My intention with this was not to make one big list, but rather to put the focus era by era. While I have since gone though and made one big list, I honestly don't want to talk about that list right now, so I'm not going to post it.

Why don't I want to talk about it? Because I think the project itself is the place where the no-holds-barred discussion is meant to be. By contrast, when we limit things to simply comparing contemporaries, I think some things can come out that may not come out in the 100.

That's a fantastic idea, I will point out where I'd like you to get short explainations if you don't mind.

So without further ado, here's what I've got to share:

1960
1. George Mikan
2. Bob Davies
3. Arnie Risen
4. Jim Pollard
5. Slater Martin
6. Paul Seymour
7. Vern Mikkelsen
8. Bobby Wanzer
9. Ed Macauley
10. Neil Johnston
11. Harry Gallatin
12. Sweetwater Clifton
13. George Yardley
14. Alex Groza
15. Joe Fulks
16. Maurice Stokes

No major disagreements, how many players from that list will you consider from that list? I think the top 3 have strong arguments, not sure about the rest of top 10 though.

1965
1. Bob Pettit
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Paul Arizin
4. Al Cervi
5. Bill Sharman
6. Larry Foust
7. Carl Braun
8. Tom Heinsohn
9. Max Zaslofsky
10. Frank Ramsey
11. Clyde Lovellette
12. Kenny Sears
13. Gene Shue

A bit high on Cervi (we had this discussion before), a bit low on Lovellette. Not sure about Braun vs Heinsohn, so would love to hear your explaination.

Overall, I think the top 6-8 should compete for the top 100.

1970
1. Bill Russell
2. Cliff Hagan
3. Sam Jones
4. Bob Cousy
5. Larry Costello
6. Tom Gola
7. KC Jones
8. Jack Twyman
9. Rudy LaRusso
10. Richie Guerin
11. Red Kerr
12. Willie Naulls

I think I'd have Cousy ahead of Jones on my list, mostly due to slightly longer prime. The last time I ranked them using CORP evaluation, Cousy came out around 20 spots higher than Jones.

I can be a bit biased, but I think Guerin has a case to be as high as top 8.

Overall, top 5 guys should compete for top 100, not sure about the rest though.

1975
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Jerry West
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Willis Reed
6. Zelmo Beaty
7. Hal Greer
8. Chet Walker
9. Lenny Wilkens
10. Dave DeBusschere
11. Bailey Howell
12. Dick Barnett
13. Jerry Lucas
14. Gus Johnson
15. Walt Bellamy

Quite strong company. Interesting to see Beaty that high, I think I should take a closer look on his career. Barnett over Lucas is probably controversial, but I don't think it's bad really. The one big disagreement is Bellamy that low - I know his stats overrate his impact, but I'd have him clearly ahead of Barnett/Lucas/Johnson tier.

I think this class has a lot of talent and even players outside top 10 could get some consideration for top 100.

1980
1. Walt Frazier
2. Rick Barry
3. John Havlicek
4. Connie Hawkins
5. Mel Daniels
6. Billy Cunningham
7. Roger Brown
8. Gail Goodrich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Louie Dampier
11. Nate Thurmond
12. Pete Maravich

My huge disagreement is Thurmond this low. I really need justification of that, if you don't mind. To me, he'd easily inside top 5. I would also change Frazier/Barry/Havlicek order a bit, I also think Hawkins is overrated here (definitely wouldn't put him ahead of Billy).

Out of these guys, I think top 6 + Thurmond can get top 100 talks, likely nobody else though.

1985
1. Dave Cowens
2. Wes Unseld
3. Elvin Hayes
4. Tiny Archibald
5. Bob Dandridge
6. Bob Lanier
7. Dan Issel
8. George McGinnis
9. David Thompson
10. Paul Westphal
11. Spencer Haywood

Lanier that low is interesting, I'd have him probably at the top to be honest. I think Westphal could be argued over Thompson. I think all of the top 10 could get some consideration in the project, what do you think?

1990
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Artis Gilmore
4. George Gervin
5. Bobby Jones
6. Bill Walton
7. Bob McAdoo
8. Dennis Johnson
9. Marques Johnson
10. Gus Williams

Another very strong class. I won't talk about Walton, he's very tough to rate. I think all of the top 10 could get into top 100, would you agree?

1995
1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Kevin McHale
4. Isiah Thomas
5. James Worthy
6. Sidney Moncrief
7. Larry Nance
8. Mo Cheeks
9. Bill Laimbeer
10. Jack Sikma
11. Alex English
12. Bernard King

No Dantley...

Interesting group of players. I'd have English easily higher, I wouldn't have King that high. Overall, all besides King should get consideration for top 100.

2000
1. Magic Johnson
2. Charles Barkley
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Robert Parish
5. Dennis Rodman
6. Kevin Johnson
7. Joe Dumars
8. Buck Williams
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Mark Price
11. Mark Eaton

Cool list, no major disagreements. I think Eaton could get to the top 100, he'd probably be in my list.

2005
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. David Robinson
5. Scottie Pippen
6. Reggie Miller
7. John Stockton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Chris Mullin
10. Terry Porter
11. Horace Grant
12. Shawn Kemp
13. Tim Hardaway

Interesting to see Ewing that low, but I understand there is a wide range of his evaluations.

Top 11-12 could get there I suppose.

2010
1. Gary Payton
2. Dikembe Mutombo
3. Alonzo Mourning
4. Penny Hardaway
5. Vlade Divac
6. Allen Iverson
7. Chris Webber
8. Toni Kukoc
9. Terry Cummings
10. Derek Harper
11. Mookie Blaylock

Quite weak class, top 3 are lock for 100. I'd have Iverson higher than Divac personally (probably that Penny as well). I think Webber has weak case for top 100, so 6 guys?

2015
1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Steve Nash
3. Jason Kidd
4. Ray Allen
5. Ben Wallace
6. Chauncey Billups
7. Rasheed Wallace
8. Grant Hill
9. Shawn Marion
10. Baron Davis
11. Tracy McGrady
12. Sam Cassell
13. Jermaine O'Neal

Top 7 are locks to me, then the thing gets interesting. I think I'd have Tracy a bit higher (certainly over Davis).

2020
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Paul Pierce
8. Tony Parker
9. Chris Bosh
10. Vince Carter

Very strong class, all of them could get into top 100.

Active Players in 2020 who received votes
1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Draymond Green
8. James Harden
9. Pau Gasol
10. Russell Westbrook
11. Dwight Howard
12. LaMarcus Aldridge

All of them should be in, only LA isn't a lock to me.

Likely Candidates among other Active Players
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Anthony Davis
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Damian Lillard
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Joel Embiid
7. Al Horford
8. Kyle Lowry
9. Rudy Gobert
10. Devin Booker
11. Luka Doncic

I'd have Gobert much higher (easily higher than Embiid to be honest). I think Lowry and Horford are at the edge, Booker and Doncic don't have much of a case to me.

[One_and_Done]

I could go to 10 probably. Guys in the same tier I could potential switch, I go back and forth on Shaq vs Magic for eg, or Duncan vs Kareem.

1. Lebron

2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Duncan

5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Hakeem

8. Curry
9. KG
10. Bird

Then I guess I'd have some combination of guys like KD, K.Malone, D.Rob, Dirk, Giannis, Dr J, etc. Not sure where in that mix Wilt and Russell go, I'd have to think about them.

[70sFan]

Tier 2
Hakeem Olajuwon, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan

Tier 3
Magic Johnson, Shaquille O’Neal, Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 4
Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird

Interesting, I have Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq and Wilt in the same tier, with KG closing it narrowly behind them. I would have Magic in the 4th tier and Bird probably a tier below (or maybe a bigger tier 4 in general?).

Tier 6
Chris Paul, David Robinson, Jerry West, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash

Quite high for Nash who doesn't really have amazing longevity. I'd have him a tier below with Barkley and Moses.

Tier 7
Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Giannis Antetokounmpo, James Harden, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen

A bit high on Giannis and definitely too high on Scottie to me.

Tier 9.5 (deciding)
Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard

Quite high on Leonard, I wouldn't have him inside my top 50.

Tier 10
Bob Lanier, Clyde Drexler, Dave Cowens, Elgin Baylor, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale, Ray Allen

What are your thoughts about these players you don't have here that I'd probably put higher? Would you consider them for top 50, or do you have them clearly below that level?

George Gervin
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Dikembe Mutombo
Dwight Howard
Pau Gasol

[Cavsfansince84]

1a. Russell
1b. Kareem
1c. MJ
1d. LeBron
5. Tim
6. Wilt
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Magic
10. Bird
11. West
12. Oscar
13. Steph
14. Dirk
15. Kobe
16. KG
17. Dr. J
18. Mikan
19. D Rob
20. K Malone
21. KD
22. M Malone
23. Barkley
24. Pettit
25. CP3
26. Nash
27. Hondo
28. Wade
29. Stockton
30. Ewing
31. Baylor
32. Frazier
33. Harden
34. Giannis
35. AD
36. Barry
37. Pippen

--- the great abyss ---

Jokic lurks here

not planning to participate

[Doctor MJ]

Cool!

1960
1. George Mikan
2. Bob Davies
3. Arnie Risen
4. Jim Pollard
5. Slater Martin
6. Paul Seymour
7. Vern Mikkelsen
8. Bobby Wanzer
9. Ed Macauley
10. Neil Johnston
11. Harry Gallatin
12. Sweetwater Clifton
13. George Yardley
14. Alex Groza
15. Joe Fulks
16. Maurice Stokes

No major disagreements, how many players from that list will you consider from that list? I think the top 3 have strong arguments, not sure about the rest of top 10 though.

I think probably only Mikan gets in the Top 100, but I'll advocate for Davies if the 100 aligns enough with my own thoughts to give me the opportunity.

1965
1. Bob Pettit
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Paul Arizin
4. Al Cervi
5. Bill Sharman
6. Larry Foust
7. Carl Braun
8. Tom Heinsohn
9. Max Zaslofsky
10. Frank Ramsey
11. Clyde Lovellette
12. Kenny Sears
13. Gene Shue

A bit high on Cervi (we had this discussion before), a bit low on Lovellette. Not sure about Braun vs Heinsohn, so would love to hear your explaination.

Overall, I think the top 6-8 should compete for the top 100.

Yup, I'm high on Cervi and low on Lovellette.

I'm impressed by Braun's career. The Knicks through the '50s had a lot of good years, and out of all their players, it seems that Braun - when he was available (military service) - was the one who they swore by. Fundamentally solid, capable of being higher or lower primacy, good attitude, fantastic height for a guard.

Heinsohn is really tricky because he was a major part of those Celtic teams, but the thing that was his job, he did inefficiently. It raises the question of whether a lot of other guys could have done what he did.

In the end, the fact that Heinsohn actually did it - that Auerbach swore by him - counts for a good deal, but I tend to put him below other "swore by" guys with less obvious issues.

I expect the Top 3 guys here will make the 100. I also love Sharman and am not opposed to him making it. I doubt Cervi has a shot, and so much of what he did is in the NBL, I don't know if I'll even try to get him nominated...but he's arguably the second best player of his era.

1970
1. Bill Russell
2. Cliff Hagan
3. Sam Jones
4. Bob Cousy
5. Larry Costello
6. Tom Gola
7. KC Jones
8. Jack Twyman
9. Rudy LaRusso
10. Richie Guerin
11. Red Kerr
12. Willie Naulls

I think I'd have Cousy ahead of Jones on my list, mostly due to slightly longer prime. The last time I ranked them using CORP evaluation, Cousy came out around 20 spots higher than Jones.

I can be a bit biased, but I think Guerin has a case to be as high as top 8.

Overall, top 5 guys should compete for top 100, not sure about the rest though.

So Cousy vs (Sam) Jones is a tricky one, and a tricky one specifically based on the new criteria I'm using.

Based on my own personal POY shares, Cousy is a considerably bigger deal than Jones. That's a good reason to put him ahead.

But I literally think Jones was the 2nd most important player in the great Celtic dynasty, and while the pre-Russell years could be argued to put Cousy ahead of Jones, I don't really think Cousy's issue here is that he aged out. Jones was a more valuable player in his 30s than Cousy was in his 30s, and it's not because Jones was taking on a small role. It was because his 20+ PPG style of play worked against contemporary competition, and Cousy's didn't.

1975
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Jerry West
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Willis Reed
6. Zelmo Beaty
7. Hal Greer
8. Chet Walker
9. Lenny Wilkens
10. Dave DeBusschere
11. Bailey Howell
12. Dick Barnett
13. Jerry Lucas
14. Gus Johnson
15. Walt Bellamy

Quite strong company. Interesting to see Beaty that high, I think I should take a closer look on his career. Barnett over Lucas is probably controversial, but I don't think it's bad really. The one big disagreement is Bellamy that low - I know his stats overrate his impact, but I'd have him clearly ahead of Barnett/Lucas/Johnson tier.

I think this class has a lot of talent and even players outside top 10 could get some consideration for top 100.

Yeah, incredible talent in this one. I think there's something of a gap after the Top 5, but I'm actually big on guys like Beaty, Walker, Howell & Barnett too.

I'd emphasize with Beaty that he was excellent in the NBA playing on great teams, and then in the ABA, he really was something of a wizard who just knew how to play. Barry got more hype, and was certainly the stronger scorer, but I think what Beaty demonstrated was more impressive. Cunningham won the MVP for his regular season work, but again, I think Beaty really deserves to be seen as achieved more.

Re: Barnett vs Lucas. I think Barnett needs to be understood as the #3 Knick on the '70 Knicks champion as 33 year old much older than the rest of the core. Had he maintained this prominence in their 2nd chip I think he'd be much more celebrated today...but he was 36, so it's understandable why he was a low minutes guy at this point.

I also think people should at least be aware that in the renegade ABL, Barnett was the star of the championship team. This wasn't a guy who only excelled as a role player, he just had an NBA team decide to use him as their star. He started in Syracuse during the Schayes years and can be said to have "lost out" to Hal Greer as the franchise player going forward (I don't know how that played out, but I'm not trying to argue for Barnett over Greer), then he went to the ABL and was a star, then he went to the Lakers with West & Baylor, then the Knicks.

Lucas is really tough. I think we have to wonder if he could have achieved far more than he did had he not ended up on Oscar's team, and when I started out looking into basketball history, I actually held this against Oscar to a degree. But the more I got access to data, the harder it was to make a case for Lucas.

People have a tendency to say Lucas proved himself on the Knicks, but he was a bench guy on the '73 chip despite being younger than Barnett was on the superior '70 champion. Lucas deserves credit for what he did, but I don't think people would see it as that big of a deal if Lucas wasn't this mega-pre-NBA prospect.

Re: Bellamy. Yeah, I may have him too low. He was a very capable volume scorer, and maybe he just got unlucky playing on bad teams.

1980
1. Walt Frazier
2. Rick Barry
3. John Havlicek
4. Connie Hawkins
5. Mel Daniels
6. Billy Cunningham
7. Roger Brown
8. Gail Goodrich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Louie Dampier
11. Nate Thurmond
12. Pete Maravich

My huge disagreement is Thurmond this low. I really need justification of that, if you don't mind. To me, he'd easily inside top 5. I would also change Frazier/Barry/Havlicek order a bit, I also think Hawkins is overrated here (definitely wouldn't put him ahead of Billy).

Out of these guys, I think top 6 + Thurmond can get top 100 talks, likely nobody else though.

Yeah, we've got a big disagreement with Thurmond.

I do see Thurmond as the #3 defensive big of his era comparing peak, probably the #1 big man individual defender, and quite possibly the #2 consistent-prime defender of his era. That seems like that should make him rank pretty high.

Offensively of course, he's not great. Had he played in another era I think we know he'd shoot a lot less, and this would be more valuable. Not looking to be super puritanical punishing him for that inefficiency, but what it does mean is that I just never end up seeing him as much of a candidate for POY shares. Now, I have a bunch of guys ahead of him here who also aren't really POY share guys, but a lot of these guys have key roles on champion teams and have signs of more all around basketball playing talents.

Something I'll acknowledge here is that while I'm not trying to punish Thurmond for the Warriors winning the title without him, I'm sure I'd see Thurmond differently if I saw him as one of the two stars on that championship team.

Re: Hawkins. So I think everyone knows I'm high on Connie and I don't really expect to persuade many folks of anything drastic. I see Hawkins at his best as a serious candidate for the best offensive player in the world, and I think what he did leading the Pipers to the championship is astonishing. I completely understand people who aren't that impressed by the first year of the ABA, but what I see from Hawkins here is something far more than just a volume scorer.

Re: Hawkins, Cunningham, Brown. So these guys all grew up playing against each other in Brooklyn and I tend to associate them. Cunningham was respected by the Black ballers in the area (they even said he played Black, which they meant as a compliment), but I definitely didn't get the impression that Cunningham was seen as better than Brown, let alone Hawkins.

Hence, I actually have the debate between Cunningham and Brown on my list, and of course, those two did play against each other in the ABA, but by that time Brown was on the decline. Between Cunningham's years in the NBA and staying a star to later point of the ABA, I'm inclined to give Cunningham the nod...but I don't think he ever did anything anywhere near as impressive as what was seen from Hawk.

1985
1. Dave Cowens
2. Wes Unseld
3. Elvin Hayes
4. Tiny Archibald
5. Bob Dandridge
6. Bob Lanier
7. Dan Issel
8. George McGinnis
9. David Thompson
10. Paul Westphal
11. Spencer Haywood

Lanier that low is interesting, I'd have him probably at the top to be honest. I think Westphal could be argued over Thompson. I think all of the top 10 could get some consideration in the project, what do you think?

Lanier's always a tough one to peg. I think it's quite reasonable to have literally on top of the list, but with his limited team success it's iffy for me. Again not trying to penalize a guy based on winning bias, but when I go through year by year POY-style, he didn't get those spots. I welcome arguments to help me better understand what he was achieving.

In terms of Top 10 consideration, I think they're all candidates and they might have all made the list before. I feel like things get iffy after 7.

1990
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Artis Gilmore
4. George Gervin
5. Bobby Jones
6. Bill Walton
7. Bob McAdoo
8. Dennis Johnson
9. Marques Johnson
10. Gus Williams

Another very strong class. I won't talk about Walton, he's very tough to rate. I think all of the top 10 could get into top 100, would you agree?

I believe Gus made the Top 100 and neither Dennis nor Marques did. My guess is that none or one of them will make it this time.

1995
1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Kevin McHale
4. Isiah Thomas
5. James Worthy
6. Sidney Moncrief
7. Larry Nance
8. Mo Cheeks
9. Bill Laimbeer
10. Jack Sikma
11. Alex English
12. Bernard King

No Dantley...

Interesting group of players. I'd have English easily higher, I wouldn't have King that high. Overall, all besides King should get consideration for top 100.

Dantley was a literal mistake. Somehow when I did the analysis I missed him. I tend to be a bit of a Dantley to be clear, but he definitely should be on the list.

My placement of English & King, along with my skepticism toward Dantley, tells a story of not being that excited at the volume scorers. King obviously would do better without health issues.

2000
1. Magic Johnson
2. Charles Barkley
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Robert Parish
5. Dennis Rodman
6. Kevin Johnson
7. Joe Dumars
8. Buck Williams
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Mark Price
11. Mark Eaton

Cool list, no major disagreements. I think Eaton could get to the top 100, he'd probably be in my list.

Ah, now that's interesting given our disagreement on Thurmond. Eaton's a more extreme example.

I think Eaton has a real argument as being worthy of the Hall of Fame because of how singular he was, and how undeniably valuable he was a shot-blocker on defense, but in terms of career value-add, I think he's really far below the other guys here.

2005
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. David Robinson
5. Scottie Pippen
6. Reggie Miller
7. John Stockton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Chris Mullin
10. Terry Porter
11. Horace Grant
12. Shawn Kemp
13. Tim Hardaway

Interesting to see Ewing that low, but I understand there is a wide range of his evaluations.

Top 11-12 could get there I suppose.

Pippen, Miller, Stockton & Ewing is a tough quartet for me to rank. I can see a case for any of them to be at the top and any of them to be at the bottom.

Honestly, Miller was the surprise for me. I've been a champion of his for a very long time, but I think I always had him below the other 3. When I went through year by year, I was really amazed at the way he stood out to me with his playoff performances. I knew about these before, but when forcing myself to make a ranked list, he kept placing high.

I definitely see Kemp as a candidate to make the list, and wouldn't be shocked if he moves back ahead of Grant.

I'll be surprised if anyone champions Tim Bug. He was one of my heroes growing up, and I was in many arguments putting him above KJ, but looking at things more analytically, he doesn't quite measure up.

2010
1. Gary Payton
2. Dikembe Mutombo
3. Alonzo Mourning
4. Penny Hardaway
5. Vlade Divac
6. Allen Iverson
7. Chris Webber
8. Toni Kukoc
9. Terry Cummings
10. Derek Harper
11. Mookie Blaylock

Quite weak class, top 3 are lock for 100. I'd have Iverson higher than Divac personally (probably that Penny as well). I think Webber has weak case for top 100, so 6 guys?

Incredibly weak honestly for such a recent class.

I would definitely see the Top 3 as a lock, and I expect Iverson will get in too. Penny may well too.

Re: Iverson vs Penny. I see Penny as the clear cut better player and while health hurts him, realistically he was relevant to contending basketball about as long as Iverson was.

Divac is tricky relative to these guys because he was never an MVP-candidate type. I certainly understand having him a lot lower, and would expect the fact majority to favor Webber over him. Divac impresses me more than Webber though.

2015
1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Steve Nash
3. Jason Kidd
4. Ray Allen
5. Ben Wallace
6. Chauncey Billups
7. Rasheed Wallace
8. Grant Hill
9. Shawn Marion
10. Baron Davis
11. Tracy McGrady
12. Sam Cassell
13. Jermaine O'Neal

Top 7 are locks to me, then the thing gets interesting. I think I'd have Tracy a bit higher (certainly over Davis).

Most would have McGrady considerably higher so that's understandable. I don't really see his career amounting to much when all is said and done.

2020
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Paul Pierce
8. Tony Parker
9. Chris Bosh
10. Vince Carter

Very strong class, all of them could get into top 100.

Yeah I think they're all locks honestly.

Active Players in 2020 who received votes
1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Draymond Green
8. James Harden
9. Pau Gasol
10. Russell Westbrook
11. Dwight Howard
12. LaMarcus Aldridge

All of them should be in, only LA isn't a lock to me.

I see that Top 11 as locks. I don't see Aldridge as much of a 100 candidate to be honest.

Likely Candidates among other Active Players
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Anthony Davis
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Damian Lillard
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Joel Embiid
7. Al Horford
8. Kyle Lowry
9. Rudy Gobert
10. Devin Booker
11. Luka Doncic

I'd have Gobert much higher (easily higher than Embiid to be honest). I think Lowry and Horford are at the edge, Booker and Doncic don't have much of a case to me.

I can definitely see the case for Gobert over Embiid actually. Lowry & Horford are tricky like Divac because it's the lower peak, great long career thing.

Neither Booker nor Doncic likely to be on my list. I'm expecting so HARSH disagreement with me about Doncic though. I remember one poster some months back saying "Doncic BETTER be in the next Top 100!", so we'll see what happens.

I'd note that Doncic has only been in the league for 5 years, and it's relatively rare for someone to make it into our Top 100 that quickly (though Jokic did last time).

[Narigo]

1.Michael Jordan
2.LeBron James
3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4.Bill Russell
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Tim Duncan
7.Shaquille O'Neal
8.Hakeem Olajuwon
9.Magic Johnson
10.Oscar Robertson
11.Larry Bird
12. Kevin Garnett
13.Kobe Bryant
14.Jerry West
15.Karl Malone
16.Stephen Curry
17.Juliius Erving
18.Dirk Nowitzki
19.David Robinson
20.Chris Paul
21.Kevim Durant
22. George Mikan
23. Charles Barkley
24. Moses Malone
25.Bob Pettit
26.Dwyane Wade
27.James Harden
28.John Stockton
29.Steve Nash
30.Scottie Pippen
31. Patrick Ewing
32.Artis Gilmore
33.John Havichek
34.Jason Kidd
35. Clyde Drexler
36.Dolph Schayes
37.Rick Barry
38.Reggie Miller
39. Giannis
40. Nikola Jokic
41.Walt Frazier
42.Bob Lanier
43. Russell Westbrook
44 Isiah Thomas
45.Paul Pierce
46 Ray Allen
47.George Gervin
48.Gary Payton
49.Kevin McHale
50.Allen Iverson

[AEnigma]

Tier 2
Hakeem Olajuwon, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan

Tier 3
Magic Johnson, Shaquille O’Neal, Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 4
Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird

Interesting, I have Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq and Wilt in the same tier, with KG closing it narrowly behind them. I would have Magic in the 4th tier and Bird probably a tier below (or maybe a bigger tier 4 in general?).

Yeah the premise is more how willing would I be to adjust the order within a tier. Top three is set, so then by default the next tier becomes, “Who can I possibly entertain at #4?”

My standard for Magic is a bit inconsistent but I do give him a break because of the unofficial forced retirement. As is, being at ninth is already a major penalty for someone who to that point was maintaining the pace to be in my top five. He turned 32 that offseason; after their respective age 31 seasons, Jordan added two MVPs and three titles, Russell added two titles, Lebron added a title and two more finals, Wilt added a title and three more finals, Hakeem added a title, Duncan added a title and a finals (in a lesser role), Shaq added a title (as a secondary star)… oh, and Kareem had his entire 1980s. Judging by the 1996 comeback and the standard set by Lebron, Nash, Stockton, and Paul, I think Magic would have been massively productive in those three or four lost seasons barring major injury. It was a unique circumstance which would never happen today, and bringing him down any farther seems a little too caught up in raw value provided for how I am approaching the exercise.

Tier 6
Chris Paul, David Robinson, Jerry West, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash

Quite high for Nash who doesn't really have amazing longevity. I'd have him a tier below with Barkley and Moses.

I have his peak and prime securely above both and am not impressed by Moses’s longevity.

Tier 7
Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Giannis Antetokounmpo, James Harden, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen

A bit high on Giannis and definitely too high on Scottie to me.

In a literal CORP sense Giannis may be high but he is helped out by the tiering of #8. Which I guess may ultimately decide Jokic for me too. I am more flexible with active players in this exercise and tend to move them in spurts rather than linearly “okay they added x to their CORP this year and are now ranked thusly”. Giannis, Harden, and in the moment Jokic are all going to be stuck in this tier for a few seasons. Harden may never move out of it, and Giannis and Jokic only will if they do not suffer some catastrophic injury or randomly decide to retire.

Casting aside the active players, Scottie is on the border of these tiers, but he wins enough arguments over the guys in the next tier that it is easier for me to see him here.

Tier 9.5 (deciding)
Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard

Quite high on Leonard, I wouldn't have him inside my top 50.

I do not think he should be separated much from Davis. Davis has an advantage in time played, but I also value Kawhi more as a peak and as a playoff performer. They might be above Tier 10, or inside, or below, but those two are tied together pretty closely for me.

Tier 10
Bob Lanier, Clyde Drexler, Dave Cowens, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale, Ray Allen

What are your thoughts about these players you don't have here that I'd probably put higher? Would you consider them for top 50, or do you have them clearly below that level?

George Gervin
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Dikembe Mutombo
Dwight Howard
Pau Gasol

Pau is probably Tier 12 for me, Thurmond is Tier 11 or 12, and the other four are all Tier 11.

Thurmond’s health holds him back too much for me, although as you know, I hold his peak/prime in high regard. 1968, 1970, and 1974 all being missed postseasons makes for killer value losses.

I have no strong criticisms of Gervin but he falls short of the perimetre players I have in Tier 10. I do not think he exceeded an all-NBA level peak in any real sense (although by common standards I do think he could have won the 1979 MVP), and I value the prime length of Allen and Drexler more.

Could be swayed on Schayes, but I hold the 1950s in pretty low regard, and Schayes is not bringing the undeniable title equity of Mikan. He is definitely the most likely to rise up in reassessment though; a long career with consistently high value can get him up to that tier with Pettit/Gilmore.

Dikembe has a bit of the Stockton/Kidd effect where I respect his all-NBA prime but do not really envision him ever being the best player on an usual championship roster. Possibly in the top fifty by raw CORP but again I do factor some element of accomplishments here, and never being a top five player or winning a title, or being on what I would call a serious contender, holds him back. Mourning is an interesting point of comparison for me, but Mourning had a couple of years where he could qualify as a top three (definitely top five) player.

Dwight (and not that you mentioned him, but also Westbrook) falters because of a relatively short prime. Outstanding 2009-11, or maybe even 2008-12, plus with a pair of productive seasons with the Rockets… which to me ends up looking like a slightly lesser Mourning.

[Matt15]

Tier 1
1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Lebron
4.Russell

Tier 2
5.Wilt
6.Duncan
7.Magic
8.Shaq

Tier 3
9.Hakeem
10.Kobe
11.Bird
12.Curry
13.Oscar
14.West

Tier 4
15.KG
16.Dirk
17.Malone
18.Dr.J
19.D-Rob
20.Moses

[rk2023]

My Pantheon in higher level tiers, sorted chronologically within each:

1. Russell, Kareem, Jordan, LBJ

2. Wilt, Olajuwon, Shaq, Duncan

3. Johnson, Garnett, Kobe

4. Oscar, West, Bird, Curry

On top of what I mentioned in the "criteria" thread, I also am factoring in on-court influence and impact towards' the games' progression when making an exclusive grouping of players. With these respective cases of greatness and value considered, I would find it hard for me to argue anybody over these 15. Perhaps such a listing could expand in the future and I think Giannis / Jokic both are phenomenal candidates to do so (and will as they progress). But yeah, for now this is my top 15. I look forward to ranking them in the weeks to come.

[One_and_Done]

I'm always baffled by Bill Russell being ranked as the GOAT. In today's game he wouldn't be the best player or even top 5, and that's understating it. But the best players today would crush it in Russell's era. If you're ranking Russell because it's all 'relative to era' why isn't Mikan in your top 5? Once you start parsing out eras and applying context to them, you've opened the floodgates and might as well apply context to everything, including how weak the league was.

[rk2023]

I'm always baffled by Bill Russell being ranked as the GOAT. In today's game he wouldn't be the best player or even top 5, and that's understating it. But the best players today would crush it in Russell's era. If you're ranking Russell because it's all 'relative to era' why isn't Mikan in your top 5? Once you start parsing out eras and applying context to them, you've opened the floodgates and might as well apply context to everything, including how weak the league was.

Russell not being top 5 today is a very lazy take. For one, he would still be the league’s best defender with some separation. If Anthony Davis (for example) can alter game-plans and leverage defensive floor raising to completely neuter a playoff opponent, why couldn’t a better athlete with GOAT-level BBIQ do the same? That’s not to mention how covering more space and more dialed in off-ball tactics would lend itself well for one with Russell’s athletic package and sheer basketball instinct.

This is not to mention modern day offense, where big men generally are more involved as connective pieces - be it through screening, serving as a passing hub, or executing variations of Pick and Rolls as a roll man. As a scorer, Russell obviously wouldn’t be calling his own number and there is much better perimeter play / playmaking principles nowadays in order to supercharge him as a play-finisher.

And with all of that in mind, the fact I’m using assumptions to gauge this era translation is why Time Machine arguments are flawed & an era relative approach is more optimal Imo. Texas Chuck has mentioned several times that it isn’t logical analysis to hold all else equal when theoretically transplanting a player into a different era. It doesn’t really factor in their basketball IQ, ability to learn, development / nurture, And access to resources - whatsoever.

[One_and_Done]

Bill Russell wouldn't be even close to the most athletic modern big. Defense has also changed an awful lot since the 60s. Heck, defence in the 90s is vastly different and less sophisticated than today.

Plus Russell has no real offense at all. A hugely limiting factor today. He'd mostly be consigned to rim rolling duties.

[rk2023]

Bill Russell wouldn't be even close to the most athletic modern big. Defense has also changed an awful lot since the 60s. Heck, defence in the 90s is vastly different and less sophisticated than today.

Plus Russell has no real offense at all. A hugely limiting factor today. He'd mostly be consigned to rim rolling duties.

None of that is well correlated to what I mentioned. Which bigs in in the modern era I are more athletic than Russell? Also, the claim he “has no real offense” is pure nonsense. Of course, his scoring more often than not was adding minimal (and sometimes negative) value - but rebounding, passing, screening, and catalyzing Transition O aren’t part of offense now? What are we doing?

[One_and_Done]

He's more athletic than Jokic. Guys like Giannis and a healthy Anthony Davis are more athletic by far than anything I've seen of Russell; bigger, longer, stronger, better body control & lateral movement, etc. Russell has a video of him almost jumping over some tiny hunched guy that people get way too excited about. Plenty of modern players can do that.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm always baffled by Bill Russell being ranked as the GOAT. In today's game he wouldn't be the best player or even top 5, and that's understating it. But the best players today would crush it in Russell's era. If you're ranking Russell because it's all 'relative to era' why isn't Mikan in your top 5? Once you start parsing out eras and applying context to them, you've opened the floodgates and might as well apply context to everything, including how weak the league was.

So, I’m someone who had Russell at #1 for a long time, dropped him, and then just raised him up again. I find it to be very challenging.

I don’t think his approach to the game is the way to achieve the highest ceiling result now that we were in a league with a mature 3-point line, and that has everything to do with why I dropped him. In a nutshell I was looking to evaluate players based on what skills are most valuable in today’s game, and this isn’t a coincidence because the rules of today’s game exist essentially to give us a more perimeter oriented game.

Now I’m using a more simplistic approach of era achievement mixed with degree of difficulty, and for me Russell is extremely impressive like this.

Would guys from today thrive in the past? Yes.

Do I think they’d be better than Russell in Russell’s era? No, I don’t. I don’t think any player in the league right now is as good of a defensive prospect as Russell - literally I mean this for this era, I think he’d be better than Dray, better than AD, better than JJJ, etc - and while in today’s game offense is king, it wasn’t back then.

Mind you, Russell simply being an outlier prospect in his own time is only part of the equation. There’s also the level of team success he actually achieved. Take the level of success of any more recent player, multiply it by a factor based on era degree of difficulty, I still don’t think it matches what Russell did with his Celtics. It’s just an absolute dream of a career and it stands out in this way compared to all who came before just as it does all who came after.

Re: Mikan. With my new approach Mikan is going to be higher than he’s been in the past, but still far below Russell. Why?

First, I think there’s a massive difference in degree of difficulty between their eras.

Second, not unrelated, is the fact that we saw Mikan age out early for reasons I’m not comfortable chalking up simply to era wear and tear.

When they widened the key, Mikan’s relative efficiency went way down, and defensively there’s never really been any question that Russell was the one who really changed the post-goaltending game.

This then to say that while I’m crediting what Mikan achieved, it’s not just that Russell has a longevity advantage, it’s that I believe Mikan’s longevity limitations weren’t of the same kind of “no further milestones” end point that Russell reached.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[eminence]

.

What milestones do you feel remained for Mikan in '54?