AtheJ415 wrote:Would prefer somebody other than Rose. That rape case was horrific.
I dont disagree with preferring someone other than Rose, but come on, that case was forever ago and he was just a kid then. He has obviously matured since then. My concern is he doesn't have anything left in the tank.
Read the details of that case. He literally stated on the stand that he doesn't understand what consent is after gang raping a girl. He is a player I would prefer never root for on my favorite team. He's also washed
lilfishi22 wrote:Yeah not going at you. Just more against this narrative that Vogel is going to come in and do things drastically different in relation to DA's role. I'm in lockstep with the TimeLine boys regarding Monty doing a great job with DA's role on both sides of the ball. Before the anti-Monty brigade jumps on me, I think Monty did the absolute right thing in simplifying DA's role and helping him develop a great quick hook (which has now disappeared) to best fit his 0.5s offense. That's literally how we got 2021 playoff DA who was just finishing shots and playing elite defense. So I think from a role perspective, it was right on the ball.
In terms of the human side of things, sure maybe DA needed a fresh approach and maybe Vogel/Fiz (aka "the Bigs Whisperer" lol) can bring that but I'm really not a fan of the idea that we'll need to baby a player on the max. I mean, he ain't exactly prime James friggen Harden in Houston.
Monty helped him develop his hook shot? Is that what those guys are saying? His offense last year was great from all over the floor and he played well within the .5 offense, whether it be a hook shot, a quick turn around jumper on the baseline, a quick mid range finish or a finish at the rim. If he didn't shoot quickly he passed quickly.
This year was a tough year for our team in many respects, mostly due to injuries and I think it's tough to focus too much on what Ayton did or didn't do because we were missing CP3, Book and both Cams for a very long time..Shamet too. There were no ball handlers for long stretches. The offense and defense was in disarray. The Timeline guys were always very good but it is weird how so many just ignore the ravage of injuries we had this year and how that might impact a lot of things.
Monty is, was, and will remain a disaster. I still can't believe we have Monty stans here still. I thought Puff was the only one left still defending that moron
Spoiler:
cause Puff is stupid and stupid people do stupid things
It's plainly obvious that Monty did damage to Ayton's career. Plainly obvious. He ruins even the players that he likes....look how good Mikal looks now that he escaped Monty. And that's considering how much he was beloved by Monty. Imagine the kind of damage that was done to Ayton. Wait, you don't have to guess, I'll tell you:
The kind of damage that has us being forced to discuss selling 1 of the most athletically gifted bigs to come out in the last decade for scrubs because his entire relationship with the city, the team and certain teammates is broken-for good. I think that Sunfans1o1 is a doofus, but 1 thing he's right about is Ayton was an afterthought here and completely underused. Which btw, is the same thing I've saying for the past 3 years. If Ish had been here sooner and fired Monty quicker then we wouldn't be here. Yet here we are.
Rest assured, this is all Tavares Montgomery Williams fault. All of it.
Ayton wont magically get better with Vogel.. Not with a full season of KD and adding Beal... The one thing Ayton is actually good at is scoring...but he cant create for himself and isnt physical enough. Aytons scoring numbers will only go down as a 4th option now. His rebounding numbers are pointless to bring up because if you watch the games he barely tries to rebound...He will just gobble up the ones that falls his way. His defense is awful...Its all down to his motor. And he just doesnt seem to care enough. Vogel isnt going to come in and tell him to play defense and rebound and its going to magically click like oh yeah maybe i should try harder!
Im still hyped for next season whether we trade Ayton or keep him.
But the need to defend Ayton is silly. As fans we call it as it is.
If Ayton was beasting no1 here would have any problems.
The thing that hurts the most about Ayton is he has all the potential in the world... And its going to waste.
This whole Ayton situation is truly difficult to rationlise in my mind. I was an Ayton supporter, and am now at the point where I am totally fed up.
But how much of his recent troubles was Cp3 or Monty related? How much can Frank Vogel get out of him?
I know it may be a pipe dream - but interested on people's thoughts here... If we were guaranteed 2021 playoffs DA consistently (i.e. DA played to his potential under this new regime), is there actually a better fit to be this teams 4th option out there in the league?
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
lilfishi22 wrote:Yeah not going at you. Just more against this narrative that Vogel is going to come in and do things drastically different in relation to DA's role. I'm in lockstep with the TimeLine boys regarding Monty doing a great job with DA's role on both sides of the ball. Before the anti-Monty brigade jumps on me, I think Monty did the absolute right thing in simplifying DA's role and helping him develop a great quick hook (which has now disappeared) to best fit his 0.5s offense. That's literally how we got 2021 playoff DA who was just finishing shots and playing elite defense. So I think from a role perspective, it was right on the ball.
In terms of the human side of things, sure maybe DA needed a fresh approach and maybe Vogel/Fiz (aka "the Bigs Whisperer" lol) can bring that but I'm really not a fan of the idea that we'll need to baby a player on the max. I mean, he ain't exactly prime James friggen Harden in Houston.
Monty helped him develop his hook shot? Is that what those guys are saying? His offense last year was great from all over the floor and he played well within the .5 offense, whether it be a hook shot, a quick turn around jumper on the baseline, a quick mid range finish or a finish at the rim. If he didn't shoot quickly he passed quickly.
This year was a tough year for our team in many respects, mostly due to injuries and I think it's tough to focus too much on what Ayton did or didn't do because we were missing CP3, Book and both Cams for a very long time..Shamet too. There were no ball handlers for long stretches. The offense and defense was in disarray. The Timeline guys were always very good but it is weird how so many just ignore the ravage of injuries we had this year and how that might impact a lot of things.
Monty is, was, and will remain a disaster. I still can't believe we have Monty stans here still. I thought Puff was the only one left still defending that moron
Spoiler:
cause Puff is stupid and stupid people do stupid things
It's plainly obvious that Monty did damage to Ayton's career. Plainly obvious. He ruins even the players that he likes....look how good Mikal looks now that he escaped Monty. And that's considering how much he was beloved by Monty. Imagine the kind of damage that was done to Ayton. Wait, you don't have to guess, I'll tell you:
The kind of damage that has us being forced to discuss selling 1 of the most athletically gifted bigs to come out in the last decade for scrubs because his entire relationship with the city, the team and certain teammates is broken-for good. I think that Sunfans1o1 is a doofus, but 1 thing he's right about is Ayton was an afterthought here and completely underused. Which btw, is the same thing I've saying for the past 3 years. If Ish had been here sooner and fired Monty quicker then we wouldn't be here. Yet here we are.
Rest assured, this is all Tavares Montgomery Williams fault. All of it.
My point was Monty doesn't deserve credit for Ayton developing a killer hook shot. Ayton does. Can he get credit for anything? Or does that go to others and anything negative falls on his shoulders?
I have never blamed Monty really. I don't know about Ayton. Ayton knew about the .5 offense and he stuck well within it with his quick shots, be it hook, quick jump shot, turn around, etc....but of course playing that way that Monty wanted to didn't please the fans because they wanted to see the drive and dunk or handle and shot creation, something Monty probably didn't want him to develop.
So regardless of how Vogel uses him on offense, even if he plays the role well, many won't like it because of what he isn't doing, and same goes for defense, or offensive rebounding...if he stays in to try and get offensive boards, they will complain about not getting back on D, but if he gets back quickly on D it will be not trying for offensive rebounds.
Game planning and roles have to be taken into consideration.
Anyway, I got off on a tangent. My original point was I am 99.9% certain that Monty did not demonstrate, show, or coach Ayton on how to do that hook shot. So I am saying there is a chance.
WeekapaugGroove wrote:There would be plenty of shots for Ayton if he simply sets good screens and rolls hard to the basket. If he busts his ass down the floor and gets position. If he boxes out and grabs offensive rebounds. If, if it though like everything else.
I don't understand this take. Does Ayton set screens and then lazily walks to the basket? What do you mean roll hard to the basket? I think Ayton is doing exactly what the play call is designed for.
Same with grabbing offensive rebounds. That isn't the play. He's supposed to get back on defense, not try to grab an offensive rebound. What happens when he doesn't get the offensive rebound? The other team pushes the ball and tries to score a quick bucket before our defense settles. Suns don't have the luxury of having Ayton stay in the paint to grab o-rebounds because no one else has the height to defend the paint besides Ayton. Additionally, Ayton ranked 15th in offense rebounds per game.
WeekapaugGroove wrote:There would be plenty of shots for Ayton if he simply sets good screens and rolls hard to the basket. If he busts his ass down the floor and gets position. If he boxes out and grabs offensive rebounds. If, if it though like everything else.
I don't understand this take. Does Ayton set screens and then lazily walks to the basket? What do you mean roll hard to the basket? I think Ayton is doing exactly what the play call is designed for.
Same with grabbing offensive rebounds. That isn't the play. He's supposed to get back on defense, not try to grab an offensive rebound. What happens when he doesn't get the offensive rebound? The other team pushes the ball and tries to score a quick bucket before our defense settles. Suns don't have the luxury of having Ayton stay in the paint to grab o-rebounds because no one else has the height to defend the paint besides Ayton. Additionally, Ayton ranked 15th in offense rebounds per game.
Ayton himself professed to not doing it enough - called it "dynamic rolling".
No offense but this is what bothers me about this conversation because I literally provided that long post with links detailing the man's own assessment of himself and an entirely different narrative is trying to be created.
SlovenianDragon wrote:I feel like every1 knows how good Ayton can be... We have seen it.
Thats whats frustrating...
And constantly pretending he can be the guy we want him to be is annoying.
He has to show us.
So my biggest thing at this current point... what is wrong with DA being an 18/10 guy? With Beal/Booker/KD?
If the Suns didn't make the Beal trade... I'd hope for Ayton to step it up a notch offensively, but now stealing Beal for Shamet and CP3... man, I'm thrilled to have Ayton here because a fourth option that is as good as Ayton is tough to find IMO and is an easier road to a championship.
SlovenianDragon wrote:I feel like every1 knows how good Ayton can be... We have seen it.
Thats whats frustrating...
And constantly pretending he can be the guy we want him to be is annoying.
He has to show us.
So my biggest thing at this current point... what is wrong with DA being an 18/10 guy? With Beal/Booker/KD?
If the Suns didn't make the Beal trade... I'd hope for Ayton to step it up a notch offensively, but now stealing Beal for Shamet and CP3... man, I'm thrilled to have Ayton here because a fourth option that is as good as Ayton is tough to find IMO and is an easier road to a championship.
Feel like ur hung up on numbers...I could care less about 18/10...
Just want to see him try... Want to see him hustle...Fight for rebounds and play defense... Whatever numbers he puts up playing hard ill be happy.
suns12345 wrote:This whole Ayton situation is truly difficult to rationlise in my mind. I was an Ayton supporter, and am now at the point where I am totally fed up.
But how much of his recent troubles was Cp3 or Monty related? How much can Frank Vogel get out of him?
I know it may be a pipe dream - but interested on people's thoughts here... If we were guaranteed 2021 playoffs DA consistently (i.e. DA played to his potential under this new regime), is there actually a better fit to be this teams 4th option out there in the league?
I wasn't expecting this, but after I finished writing, I realized I had morphed into GoK, so I had to put spoilers on the first part of my post so you or others can skip and get to the real answer and not have to go through all the rambling (j/k GoK..you don't ramble...that's just me here) - though actually, even if you are going to read the spoiler part, it's probably better to read the bottom part first.
Spoiler:
Who knows? I think his first two years he played purely on instinct...obviously as a rookie when he had over 16 and 10 which was really really good for a rookie big...then with Rubio who runs and plays with instinct, Ayton was over 18ppg and 11.5rpg.
Ayton was always a very instinctual player...played freely, for better or worse (worse on D). But that 2nd year he DID improve vastly on D, which was extremely surprising..enough for me to go from a person who really didn't like Ayton as a player to suddenly becoming encouraged at what he could become given he could go from league worst defense to avg in one year. We had had near league worst defenders and that didn't change year to year, or you rarely see it.
Then with CP3 everything slowed WAY down..Ayton got fewer shots, thought everything through, took better shots, became more efficient, but it wasn't run and gun at all..it was methodical. Chris Paul constantly in his ear teaching. Jae Crowder very vocal on defense. This was the year you are talking about. His best year on defense and better efficiently on offense even though his shots went down significantly from around 15 with Rubio to 10 with Paul. A great playoff run.
21-22 - appeared he focused offseason on the killer hook shot and his shots overall because his shooting from every area on the floor was elite. Like near best ever elite FG% for a player on over 10 fga per game. At one point he was #1 ever or #2 ever on players with over 11 fga/game which I found odd because he was shooting so much from midrange...I went back and looked at Shaq's #s and was surprised his FG% wasn't higher...yet a lot of complainig about not dunking.
The problem this year was defense regressed a little bit. He played really well in the Pelicans series...on both sides. JV couldn't shoot. JV did outrebound him and came up with a lot of offensive boards, I think many in one game, but many off his own misses from Ayton standing there deterring them.
Booker was out some that series and Ayton really stepped up to play well as the 2nd option (or sometimes first).
Dallas series....I have a hard time remembering Ayton because I was focused so heavily on whatever was happening with Paul, who carried up in game 2 and then suddenly fouls out one game, has more turnovers than assists, can't get to his midrange shots, started spotting up from 3 all the time...suddenly our whole team was playing differently and then obviously we fell apart in game 7...and that Ayton debacle....so the fanbase piled on Ayton after that last even though none of the team came out...and everyone wanted him gone as if it was his fault. Flex started saying he had said he wanted out for months (which was strange since no one ever said anything about it before)...a lot of rumors and assumptions start flying around..he wants out, Monty and him hate each other, etc. But basically just assumptions.
This year - is only player on team who played pretty much the whole season...the whole team was decimated by injuries so he rarely even played with the same people...and often with 2nd or 3rd stringers. For awhile it was him and Bridges and they both struggled being the top options at times but then at times started playing well. Went through some bad losing streaks during those times of decimated teams, but near the end of that stretch when players started coming back went 8-2.
His defensive #s when he was on the floor look really bad, though it's very hard to judge this considering you typically judge on/off when groups play most of their minutes together, so you see how things change when one players is not playing. In this case no players were playing with him. The Timeline guys are usually very good but they don't seem to understand how these stats work.
Anyway, after a tough season with all those injuries, different lineups, and first time playing without Bridges, he goes up against Jokic, a reigning 2x MVP, #1 seed in the west, who now had all his options at his disposal, got thoroughly outplayed, and the pressure got to him and he lost confidence.
The way it ended for him was frustrating and disappointing...as much as it was for the fans, probably harder for him than anyone.
................
So now,
he gets a fresh start, a training camp with new players, hopefully a team that can stay healthy, a fresh start with a new coach, one who focuses on defense....I think it's almost a certainty he plays better than last year. Last year was weird in so many respects I don't see how he could play worse or as many people view it, "with low motivation" but I think in large part it will come down to him hopefully getting back to playing freely.
I think now that he has had the 5 years and 3 full years to digest the perfectionist stuff of Chris Paul, it will be better for him.
Remember, Harden couldn't play with Paul after 2 years...wanted him gone...many players who had played with him more than a year had not liked him. Booker was even asked how he liked playing with him at the end of his first year and said "He's not for everybody" or "it's not for everybody"...meaning (I think) he is such a perfectionist that it gets old..and frustrating.
Anyway, a new team, a training camp, hopefully a healthy team, a new defensive coach and solid coaching staff, and I think not playing with Chris Paul will actually help him. He won't have to worry about hearing about every little mistake and can just play.
Will he get back to 20-21? I don't know. I think it's pretty much a certainty he will be a better player even if his ppg go down, and maybe even if his rpg go down a bit with KD here.
Hopefully he even becomes more impactful than he was back then, as he gets a fresh start with a new coach, team, etc, after absorbing the information he's learned from Paul, his previous coaches, and just playing the last 5 years. I don't think he personally should feel a lot of pressure unless the fans place it solely on him as they might. He's the 4th guy. The big 3 should carry us.
enigmatics wrote: Ayton himself professed to not doing it enough - called it "dynamic rolling".
No offense but this is what bothers me about this conversation because I literally provided that long post with links detailing the man's own assessment of himself and an entirely different narrative is trying to be created.
What narrative is being created?
What did you gather from that article that is so negative about DA's own assessment of himself?
He's mentioning the paint is clogged, defenses not allowing him to get in there, so he's taking what the defense gives him and taking jumpers. DA is actually taking 30% of his shots from mid-range this past season where he shot 46% from that range. Pretty impressive for a big. First season with CP3, DA was taking 53% of his shots within 3 feet (versus this past season taking 31% of his shots within 3 feet).
Dynamic rolling to me sounds like DA is being smarter about when to roll to the basket and when to pop more based on what the defense is giving him. He talks about trying to keep defenses honest, and I think defenses will not be able to clog the paint nearly as much when the Suns have all shooters surrounding DA.
Another player Monty blew it with. He needs to be the first call we make. Actually since we all know there's tampering in the NBA, hopefully Ish/JJ is talking to Carter's agent right now. At this exact moment in time.
