Who sacrifices most? Tatum, Jaylen or Porzingis

[ryan in Maine]

If only there was some sort of example for them to follow.

Paul Pierce
2007 - 25 ppg (18.1 fga) in 37 mpg
2008 - 19.6 (13.7) in 35.9

Kevin Garnett
2007 - 22.4 ppg (17.6 fga) in 39.4 mpg
2008 - 18.8 (13.9) in 32.8

Ray Allen
2007 - 26.4 ppg (21 fga) in 40.3 mpg
2008 - 17.4 (13.5) in 35.9

I know JB and KP can't pass like Ray and KG, but we do have a tradition of sacrifice for banners.

[Deivork]

If only there was some sort of example for them to follow.

Paul Pierce
2007 - 25 ppg (18.1 fga) in 37 mpg
2008 - 19.6 (13.7) in 35.9

Kevin Garnett
2007 - 22.4 ppg (17.6 fga) in 39.4 mpg
2008 - 18.8 (13.9) in 32.8

Ray Allen
2007 - 26.4 ppg (21 fga) in 40.3 mpg
2008 - 17.4 (13.5) in 35.9

I know JB and KP can't pass like Ray and KG, but we do have a tradition of sacrifice for banners.

Minutes, shots and ppg down for the greater purpose. Ah, the times...

[dans1230]

If only there was some sort of example for them to follow.

Paul Pierce
2007 - 25 ppg (18.1 fga) in 37 mpg
2008 - 19.6 (13.7) in 35.9

Kevin Garnett
2007 - 22.4 ppg (17.6 fga) in 39.4 mpg
2008 - 18.8 (13.9) in 32.8

Ray Allen
2007 - 26.4 ppg (21 fga) in 40.3 mpg
2008 - 17.4 (13.5) in 35.9

I know JB and KP can't pass like Ray and KG, but we do have a tradition of sacrifice for banners.

Minutes, shots and ppg down for the greater purpose. Ah, the times...

Tatum/Brown/Porzingis are better OFFENSIVE players than Pierce/KG/Allen were at the time of those trades, along with the fact that there is more offense on this version of the Celtics supporting cast than there was in 2008. Yes, they need to sacrifice for a shot at a banner, not sure they are able or willing to do that at this point in their career.
The most important thing with this group is that they become more efficient offensively. A lineup of White/Brown/Tatum/Porzingis/Williams will stop a defense from leaving anyone alone. If a team doubles they just need to move the ball around and at some point an open guy will have a great look. Teams will often be forced to leave Rob which will create a ton of lobs.

[BK_2020]

If only there was some sort of example for them to follow.

Paul Pierce
2007 - 25 ppg (18.1 fga) in 37 mpg
2008 - 19.6 (13.7) in 35.9

Kevin Garnett
2007 - 22.4 ppg (17.6 fga) in 39.4 mpg
2008 - 18.8 (13.9) in 32.8

Ray Allen
2007 - 26.4 ppg (21 fga) in 40.3 mpg
2008 - 17.4 (13.5) in 35.9

I know JB and KP can't pass like Ray and KG, but we do have a tradition of sacrifice for banners.

Minutes, shots and ppg down for the greater purpose. Ah, the times...

Tatum/Brown/Porzingis are better OFFENSIVE players than Pierce/KG/Allen were at the time of those trades, along with the fact that there is more offense on this version of the Celtics supporting cast than there was in 2008. Yes, they need to sacrifice for a shot at a banner, not sure they are able or willing to do that at this point in their career.
The most important thing with this group is that they become more efficient offensively. A lineup of White/Brown/Tatum/Porzingis/Williams will stop a defense from leaving anyone alone. If a team doubles they just need to move the ball around and at some point an open guy will have a great look. Teams will often be forced to leave Rob which will create a ton of lobs.

Maybe Tatum > Pierce but there's no way in hell Jaylen Brown and Porzingis are better offensive players than KG and Ray Allen in 2007. Celtics fans may particularly underrate Allen because the version we saw sacrificed a lot of touches and was grossly misused by Doc, but he was the 6th leading scorer by ppg in 2006-2007 season on good efficiency.

[steefP2]

Tatum, will by necessity have to focus more on playmaking. It'll be slightly more helio around tatum, this is part of the bet the front office is making. Fwiw whenever tatum has the ball, good stuff happens according to all the numbers. This might also combat the late game Tatum not getting the ball problem. Hopefully Jaylen goes back to less on ball, more play finishing type but i dont see this as counting ppg. It's a usage thing, 31-33% for tatum, 27-28% for brown and 25-27% for porzingis.

[31to6]

I don’t know, but I do know that Porzingis and Brogdon seem to be the two hardest-to-spell last names on this team (ignoring Champaigne:)

[tleikheen]

If (C) Robert Williams (25 y o ) plays the role of Daniel Gafford playing with (C/PF) KP (27 y o ) then he starts. (PG) DWhite (28 y o ),(SG) Jalen Brown (26 y o ) & (SF) Jason Tatum (25 y o ) are all seasoned and young like the Denver Nuggets are .They got to be the 2 favorites.
Denver is tighter ,smarter but no more talented than the Celtics. The ball finds the hot player with Denver because Jokic and Murray move the ball . Tatum and Brown need to know and play more team ball . As seen w/Jokic and Murray they still star but they play team oriented to win.
The ball went through KP at the top of the key because he's a good passer. Brown and Tatum need to play off of that and get ball movement and player movement because if they stay healthy it might be Boston vs Denver the next couple yrs.

[ParticleMan]

Jaylen will definitely handle less. Book it. I think he felt like he had to be the lead guy when Tatum was out (or hobbled like in G7), now he doesn't need to shoulder that. His usage should be in like 27% or so. I don't expect KP to score 23ppg, there's only 1 ball and it's going to Tatum in crunchtime, but if he gives us 20 and JB gives us 23 we will be in great shape. The key thing is ball movement and efficiency. The best way to improve our efficiency is to make life easier for Tatum.

[cloverleaf]

If (C) Robert Williams (25 y o ) plays the role of Daniel Gafford playing with (C/PF) KP (27 y o ) then he starts. (PG) DWhite (28 y o ),(SG) Jalen Brown (26 y o ) & (SF) Jason Tatum (25 y o ) are all seasoned and young like the Denver Nuggets are .They got to be the 2 favorites.
Denver is tighter ,smarter but no more talented than the Celtics. The ball finds the hot player with Denver because Jokic and Murray move the ball . Tatum and Brown need to know and play more team ball . As seen w/Jokic and Murray they still star but they play team oriented to win.
The ball went through KP at the top of the key because he's a good passer. Brown and Tatum need to play off of that and get ball movement and player movement because if they stay healthy it might be Boston vs Denver the next couple yrs.

That's what drives me crazy about everyone going on about how talented the C's are. The C's top players are not smart players, and it ultimately takes smarts to win in the NBA. (We won't go into how smart this past year's coaching was.) JT IMO is capable of making the right plays, but it often takes him way too long to figure out what to do. JB in many situations just doesn't appear capable of seeing and processing the best options on the floor.

I can see the claim that selfish play, which the C's have also suffered from in recent years, is more an issue of character than talent. But intelligence? I put that squarely in the talent column.

[Larry_Russell]

100% should be brown.

But brown being brown it will have to be Kristaps and Tatum.

[cloverleaf]

Minutes, shots and ppg down for the greater purpose. Ah, the times...

Tatum/Brown/Porzingis are better OFFENSIVE players than Pierce/KG/Allen were at the time of those trades, along with the fact that there is more offense on this version of the Celtics supporting cast than there was in 2008. Yes, they need to sacrifice for a shot at a banner, not sure they are able or willing to do that at this point in their career.
The most important thing with this group is that they become more efficient offensively. A lineup of White/Brown/Tatum/Porzingis/Williams will stop a defense from leaving anyone alone. If a team doubles they just need to move the ball around and at some point an open guy will have a great look. Teams will often be forced to leave Rob which will create a ton of lobs.

Maybe Tatum > Pierce but there's no way in hell Jaylen Brown and Porzingis are better offensive players than KG and Ray Allen in 2007. Celtics fans may particularly underrate Allen because the version we saw sacrificed a lot of touches and was grossly misused by Doc, but he was the 6th leading scorer by ppg in 2006-2007 season on good efficiency.

Agreed. JB was an absolute league-average at .581 TS%, and in RA's decades of play he never dipped that low. RA never had more than 1.7 TO/36 while with the C's, but through JB"s 7 years here he's never been that low. Porzi may have been a better offensive player last year than KG was in Boston, but KG of course was better on D, leadership, and overall.

[keevsnick1]

The answer to stuff like this is almost always all three guys will. They will of course be staggered to some extent, but they are starting and closing so they'll play a lot together as well. You can't really get from Smart's USG to KP's USG without all three guys losing a bit of USG.

I'd hope they each lose some USG but gain some efficiency. KP had an excellent 62.7% TS last year, but prior to that he's never actually been efficient ESPECIALLY for a center. Brown was a league average 58.1% and even Tatum was only 60.7% which is good overall but low for a primary offensive creator when compared to guys like Curry, Jokic, Embiid, Durant ect.

[shackles10]

Over/under on how many all-stars we have next season? 2 last year with 3 capable, and possibly White in a vacuum but hard to see it with the 3 above him and he's not a guy who's going to average 10 assists or 10 rebounds to make up for the lack of scoring opportunities. If the line is 2.5 are you going over or under?

[cloverleaf]

Over/under on how many all-stars we have next season? 2 last year with 3 capable, and possibly White in a vacuum but hard to see it with the 3 above him and he's not a guy who's going to average 10 assists or 10 rebounds to make up for the lack of scoring opportunities. If the line is 2.5 are you going over or under?

I'm over. I think they have 3.

[BK_2020]

Over/under on how many all-stars we have next season? 2 last year with 3 capable, and possibly White in a vacuum but hard to see it with the 3 above him and he's not a guy who's going to average 10 assists or 10 rebounds to make up for the lack of scoring opportunities. If the line is 2.5 are you going over or under?

Just Tatum
Garland will take a while to get use to our system so he won't have eyepopping stats pre-AS break.

[darrendaye]

If (C) Robert Williams (25 y o ) plays the role of Daniel Gafford playing with (C/PF) KP (27 y o ) then he starts. (PG) DWhite (28 y o ),(SG) Jalen Brown (26 y o ) & (SF) Jason Tatum (25 y o ) are all seasoned and young like the Denver Nuggets are .They got to be the 2 favorites.
Denver is tighter ,smarter but no more talented than the Celtics. The ball finds the hot player with Denver because Jokic and Murray move the ball . Tatum and Brown need to know and play more team ball . As seen w/Jokic and Murray they still star but they play team oriented to win.
The ball went through KP at the top of the key because he's a good passer. Brown and Tatum need to play off of that and get ball movement and player movement because if they stay healthy it might be Boston vs Denver the next couple yrs.

Robert Williams is going to get his fair share of top of key connector role time. Williams makes good reads, passes the ball with excellent acceleration, accuracy, and makes very quick decisions. He also tends to understand better than most of his teammates the importance of getting the ball to the hot shooter and working to get struggling shooters going (ask old friend Evan Fournier). And that's also the value of a guy who isn't focused on his own scoring (though many of us want him to up the attempts a bit).

All that said, sure, KP top of the key is a good thing at times too. As others are bringing up, and the beat I've been drumming for some time, much lies on Tatum's head to run the offense. He wants to be an MVP? Hitting legit point forward tier is the widest path for him to get there.

Your point about player movement I 1000% concur. Denver signed a guy who was well versed in cutting, Bruce Brown. And Aaron Gordon was an experienced and eager cutter in college. I often extolled that virtue in both those players in trade/FA threads over the years. Celts need to sign cutters. I'm advocating for Javonte Green. Give me more. It's a scale I'm using to judge the team's moves. They got shooters/scorers. I want some movers and shakers. Love that that have 4 starters who can finish lobs. Put it to work.

EDIT: I found this on YouTube, offers some insight. Guy might come across as a bit teach-y, but was best passing compilation I was able to find.

Watch on YouTube

[playa-hater]

After reading this thread we need to trade brown more than ever.. That man ain't sacrificing for anyone.

[KamikazeK]

Personally, I'm of the belief that Tatum has been trying too hard to earn individual awards like the MVP, so I would like to see less of that and more of playing as part of the team.

[darrendaye]

Does this FINALLY allow them to reduce minutes for each of these guys? Thinking JT (34), JB (32), KP (28).

[165bows]

Jaylen will definitely handle less. Book it. I think he felt like he had to be the lead guy when Tatum was out (or hobbled like in G7), now he doesn't need to shoulder that. His usage should be in like 27% or so. I don't expect KP to score 23ppg, there's only 1 ball and it's going to Tatum in crunchtime, but if he gives us 20 and JB gives us 23 we will be in great shape. The key thing is ball movement and efficiency. The best way to improve our efficiency is to make life easier for Tatum.

Hopefully the team plays faster this year and moves out of the bottom tier in the pace department. So they all give up some usage but maybe not a ton of points lol.