Shams: Bulls extend Vuc (3/60)

[aguifs]

With little trade interest in Lavine, the tear it down option fizzled away, to the extent it ever existed. We are running it back, which has always been the best option in my view. This is a good first step. The next is to sign a starting PG, using either the MLE or the DPE that we get for Lonzo. Try to recreate the good play that we saw post All Star break last season.

I bet that Coby will go into the waiting game. The Bulls will offer him a three year deal starting at 13 M, which is just over the MLE. He will go looking for something better and likely not find it. But it will take a while.

Last time, continuity didn't do us well

[NZB2323]

i'm kind of shocked at how many people are citing raw stats in favor of vucevic, not just because we've also seen him put up a much worse season in 2021-22, but also because my problem with vucevic is something that i think is glaringly obvious if you spent any amount of time watching the bulls over the past 2.5 years, even if it's not obvious in his individual statistics.

the derozan/lavine/vucevic trio is less than the sum of its parts. that's the problem. there's no multiplier effect from having those three "stars" on the court at the same time, and therefore we have not seen the benefit you might expect from having nikola vucevic on the court as our third best scoring option. (this is borne out by lineup stats. on a team with a +1.3 net rating last season, the three-man lineup of demar/vucevic/lavine had a -0.4 net rating. vucevic/lavine had a -0.2 net rating; derozan/vucevic had a -0.4 net rating.)

spinning vucevic into alternate assets was the easiest path toward trying something different with this team. now, barring an unexpectedly big move or some improbably good modestly priced free agency additions, we're stuck making another run with this thing that doesn't work.

The issue is the sign and trade wasn't there. The Bulls asked around for what kind of assets they could get back and the answers were disappointing. You can't trade one of the mid 3 and improve the team, because you won't get a lot back.

[GoBlue72391]

Vuc re signing was always expected, glad that it’s finally official. This contract is totally fine and he fully deserved it.

A lot of you guys need to stop with the nonsense acting like he’s some scrub. He may not be perfect but the guy played hard every night and didn’t take one game off like the other pussies do for “load management or rest”. Not only did he play but he’s also the most consistent player on the team.Happy he’s back.

You can respect and appreciate a player while still wanting to move on from him.

[boozapalooza]

Read on Twitter

But we could have signed Jockstrap Landale and Bismack Biyombo!!!

[Peelboy]

I too hope this presages a trade of DeMar as the primary change. Not sure what you can get for him, but if Kyrie goes back to Dallas and Dame stays in Portland, what can LAL do? DeMar might be their best bet and maybe Bulls get back Hood-Schifino and something for him. JHS isn't a shooter (which is a problem, but come on down Peter Patton!), but if he can develop that would be a pretty solid PG. Maybe him and a pick and whatever makes the cap fit.

That said, if DeMar adds an improved 3-ball, and we've all seen the clips of him working on it, that would take him game up a notch and make a difference. But internal improvement hasn't exactly been the Bulls strong suit (again, come on down Peter Patton - if you can get Ayo, Dalen, Phillips into the upper 30% range from 3, you could own this town!).

[GoBlue72391]

Could be worse. He's overrated by many people, and not really a "plus" starter, BUT, it's a pay cut from his current deal, which in the age of wild inflation, isn't terrible.

I see it pretty much the same. I think he’s underrated by some as well, but I’m with you on the point that this is a raw salary reduction during a time that’s about to hit some wild inflation.

Overall, I don’t like it, but I also don’t hate it. I guess I understand it. I’ll like it less if the 3rd year isn’t a team option…so guessing I’m going to like it less as I imagine it’ll be fully guaranteed.

Like the Bulls, it’s thoroughly mediocre.

To me, Vuc is as overrated as he is underrated. You have some people saying he's a garbage player and then you have others saying he's an all-star caliber double-double machine. Neither of these things is true, the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it's definitely interesting how there's such a wide discrepancy in how he's viewed.

[SouthernBull]

But what about GG Jackson?? Damn you AKME!

[sco]

I dont understand the hate unless you are advocating for a tear down. Vuc is whatever but letting him walk means you have like $8m to replace his production..not sure how you get better or even stay at their current level with $8m. I would have been open to a sign and trade though and think that was the best option. But at the end of the day if things aren't working out next year, Vuc's contract is short enough and a low enough AAV to be moved, so really all we're doing is kicking the can down the road IMO

I HATE this signing!!!

That said this deal was inevitable, as IMO, AK is in the position that is terrible for fans..."GMing scared". He spent all of his asset capital to swing for the fences in a bold initial team build, and it failed. Ironically, it seemed to be a well-constructed team, but it failed due to our "vasectomy" of losing Ball. But in sports, excuses don't go too far. He's got to know he won't survive a rebuild, so he's gotta keep doubling-down on this flawed group and pray that one of the young guys bails him out. These reigns of terror usually end in a trade of all the remaining future assets and young players for an aging star who ultimately fails the team.

That aside, the reason I hate the trade for this season because, for this price, we won't have enough $ left to add a full-MLE player, as we really could use a good PF (to replace DJJ and/or push Pat to the bench).

The reason I hate this trade past this season is that we had exactly 1 chance to bring in 2 max players to put next to Zach and pretend to contend. Vuc's deal is big enough that even if we let DDR walk now and get full medical retirement $ back for Ball, we won't have enough cap space to upgrade the team.

We can only hope that AK is gone soon!

[drosestruts]

i still think the 3-man lineup stats is flawed as it's missing context of who the two other players are.

Overall yes the trio is -0.4

Pre All-star break

w/ Ayo and Williams: +1.1

w/ Caruso and Williams: +7.2

w/ Caruso and Ayo: +7.8

w/ Coby and Williams: -0.9

w/ Caruso and White: +6.7

w/ Ayo and DJJ: -14.2

w/ Dragic and Williams: -34

w/ Green and Ayo: -52



Post All-Star break:

w/ Beverley and Caruso: +14.7

w/ Coby and Pat: +33.2

w/ Coby and Caruso: +90 somehow

then at the same time, you have:

w/ Beverley and Williams: -31

w/ Beverley and White: -10

w/ Beverley and Dosunmu: -35


The answer could be Coby and Pat - which would be excellent for our cap space. Would still want better, more complimentary depth than we've had in the past.

[chitownsports4ever]

i'm kind of shocked at how many people are citing raw stats in favor of vucevic, not just because we've also seen him put up a much worse season in 2021-22, but also because my problem with vucevic is something that i think is glaringly obvious if you spent any amount of time watching the bulls over the past 2.5 years, even if it's not obvious in his individual statistics.

the derozan/lavine/vucevic trio is less than the sum of its parts. that's the problem. there's no multiplier effect from having those three "stars" on the court at the same time, and therefore we have not seen the benefit you might expect from having nikola vucevic on the court as our third best scoring option. (this is borne out by lineup stats. on a team with a +1.3 net rating last season, the three-man lineup of demar/vucevic/lavine had a -0.4 net rating. vucevic/lavine had a -0.2 net rating; derozan/vucevic had a -0.4 net rating.)

spinning vucevic into alternate assets was the easiest path toward trying something different with this team. now, barring an unexpectedly big move or some improbably good modestly priced free agency additions, we're stuck making another run with this thing that doesn't work.

The issue is the sign and trade wasn't there. The Bulls asked around for what kind of assets they could get back and the answers were disappointing. You can't trade one of the mid 3 and improve the team, because you won't get a lot back.

Do you have that list ? because Id love to see the list of teams the Bulls would call about trading a unrestricted free agent .

[Wingy]

Could be worse. He's overrated by many people, and not really a "plus" starter, BUT, it's a pay cut from his current deal, which in the age of wild inflation, isn't terrible.

I see it pretty much the same. I think he’s underrated by some as well, but I’m with you on the point that this is a raw salary reduction during a time that’s about to hit some wild inflation.

Overall, I don’t like it, but I also don’t hate it. I guess I understand it. I’ll like it less if the 3rd year isn’t a team option…so guessing I’m going to like it less as I imagine it’ll be fully guaranteed.

Like the Bulls, it’s thoroughly mediocre.

To me, Vuc is as overrated as he is underrated. You have some people saying he's a garbage player and then you have others saying he's an all-star caliber double-double machine. Neither of these things is true, the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it's definitely interesting how there's such a wide discrepancy in how he's viewed.

Undoubtedly true, but I think there are more in the garbage camp than the all-star caliber d-d camp.

Let’s be honest. He’s largely a victim of the VP of BBall paying out 2 firsts that he didn’t protect enough. If he did top 8 protection and we got Franz, or another good player taken after him, the level of Vuc hate would largely disappear.

[HomoSapien]

I'm a Vuc fan and think he's significantly underrated on this board. That said, we have some big issues on this team that need to be resolved and can't just come back with the exact same team.

[nomorezorro]

i still think the 3-man lineup stats is flawed as it's missing context of who the two other players are.

this is a fair point that i was kind of eliding in service of the point i was trying to make, but to get more specific: i legitimately think the three-man lineup stats are evidence the "big three" do not fit well together. on other teams with complementary star players, the two/three-man net rating numbers are generally really strong; we clearly do not have that sort of an arrangement. in fact, the net rating stats would lead you to believe alex caruso is arguably our most impactful player (which there might be some merit to, which again is kind of damning of our "star" players.)

however, as you highlight, just because demar/lavine/vuc aren't naturally complementary (or talented) enough to be a star three-man unit, they're also not such a catastrophe that you can't build a good lineup with them in it. that's why, if we're gonna run back this core, we have to upgrade the 5-9 spots in the rotation. (there's still probably like, a 50 win ceiling on this team, but it is important not to forget that having a trash bench was a major reason we struggled last season)

[Betta Bulleavit]

Love him or hate him, 20MM/year for a walking double double aint a bad contract. If he can keep that 3PT near/above 35%, on top of his post scoring and rebounding, he will be worth the money. I think his game will stay above average for the next 3 years.

Just sign Enes Kanter for the BAE.

Really??

[Rose2Boozer]

I have no problem with 3/60. The Bulls should have enough money to get a shooting forward and a guard.

[TheSuzerain]

Love him or hate him, 20MM/year for a walking double double aint a bad contract. If he can keep that 3PT near/above 35%, on top of his post scoring and rebounding, he will be worth the money. I think his game will stay above average for the next 3 years.

Just sign Enes Kanter for the BAE.

Really??

Significantly better rebounder than Vuc. Better scoring efficiency.

Basically unemployed.

If AK is desperate to have a euro big with box score stats and minimal actual impact, let's go with Kanter.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Let mediocrity reign!!!

What exactly do you feel like they should have done?

[MrFortune3]

I was fine with anything 20 mil or less over 3. MLE or just above it was never realistic and the extensions signed or rumored to be signed by other C's solidified that.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Just sign Enes Kanter for the BAE.

Really??

Significantly better rebounder than Vuc. Better scoring efficiency.

Basically unemployed.

If AK is desperate to have a euro big with box score stats and minimal actual impact, let's go with Kanter.

Basically unemployed eh?? 30 teams in the association and he’s “basically unemployed” for no good reason?? Yeah, no.

[bad knees]

Now that Vuc is in the fold, our focus turns to AD. Sure hope he opts in. We would have a hard replacing him for $3 M. We should know today.