Shams: Bulls extend Vuc (3/60)

[vxmike]

I think Vuc's on/off based stats look worse than they are cause of how awesome Drummond was lol. Vuc was still very solid. He manages to make up for his critical flaw of putrid shot challenging by being very good at defensive rebounds, not fouling, and getting deflections. He's def above average offensively, where he's truly multi skilled.

Vuc would look a lot better if the Bulls could put a real PF next to him. Pat is not a PF. He would look great next to a guy like prime Taj Gibson, for example.

He’d def look better with an Aaron Gordon type defender with size and athleticism.

The roster is so flawed a lot of guys with look better if there was a real PF and PG on the roster. Vuc needs a frontcourt defender (Pat is a SF) and Zach/Demar really need a PG so they don’t have to iso so much.

[WindyCityBorn]

Other aspect of this… cap is making a sizable 10% jump from $123m to 136m.

Anyway, AK is pretty straight-forward in his press conferences. He said Vuc’s a big part of this process. I don’t think he signed him to trade him tomorrow.

Meanwhile his subtle disappointment in Zach was more apparent. I think the asking price is high, but a deal will get done. After the FA dust settles, there will be 2-4 teams left, looking to buy.

It makes no sense to keep Vuc/DeRozan duo and trade Zach for assets. If you trade Zach it should be a complete rebuild.

If Zach gets traded I'm assuming DeRozan would go to a playoff team for 2nd rounders or a low 1st. Making $20mil/year while living in Chicago is a decent tradeoff for having to anchor a rebuilding team. If Vuc wanted to win he would've taken a pay cut to sign with a team that's actually good.

Players ALWAYS take the bag and then ask for a trade later. Besides that this is Vuc’s last big deal. He would be a fool to take less money to go to a team that MIGHT win a championship. He can ring chase for vet minimum on a contender for a couple of years after this contract is over.

[FriedRise]

Those were his contract year stats. Let's see what he does now that his money is guaranteed. Will he come to training camp in shape? Will he stay healthy? Well his temper tantrums increase or decrease? I'm not getting my hopes up.

Kind of a weird post given his contract year stats involved him willingly playing third banana to two other guys and therefore putting up more modest stats than earlier in his career.

And I have no idea what you’re referring to with health, being in shape, or temper tantrums. Is there some history in this regard?

One thing about Vuc is that he’s always been a consistent player. He doesn’t typically fluctuate too much as a player and plays a high number of game.

I definitely expect similar production next season. He’s a pro and a hard worker. Last year he wasn’t outstanding but he turned up pretty much every night and delivered what he’s good at.

He’s so consistent he actually put up the same EXACT points, offensive/defensive rebounds, and assists numbers the last two years he was in Chicago - down to the decimal point lmao. The only thing that’s up and down was his shooting, but that’s to be expected for someone who just recently became a shooter.

[WindyCityBorn]

It makes no sense to keep Vuc/DeRozan duo and trade Zach for assets. If you trade Zach it should be a complete rebuild.

If Zach gets traded I'm assuming DeRozan would go to a playoff team for 2nd rounders or a low 1st. Making $20mil/year while living in Chicago is a decent tradeoff for having to anchor a rebuilding team. If Vuc wanted to win he would've taken a pay cut to sign with a team that's actually good.

Or Vuc took a paycut to make it easier to build a roster to win.

Why would he take a pay cut for team that refuses to pay the luxury tax and has no realistic path to contention. I honestly think DeMar and Vuc are pretty happy in Chicago even if we are in NBA Hell. DeRozan I’m particular has completely resurrected his career. I think is Zach content as well, but if we run it back with the same mediocre results I could see him becoming a bit agitated. I think he is another guy that is happy playing in big market for BIG money for an organization that seems to appreciate him. We’ll see if the trade inquiries have any strain on that relationship. He could take that as disrespectful.

[WindyCityBorn]

Kind of a weird post given his contract year stats involved him willingly playing third banana to two other guys and therefore putting up more modest stats than earlier in his career.

And I have no idea what you’re referring to with health, being in shape, or temper tantrums. Is there some history in this regard?

One thing about Vuc is that he’s always been a consistent player. He doesn’t typically fluctuate too much as a player and plays a high number of game.

I definitely expect similar production next season. He’s a pro and a hard worker. Last year he wasn’t outstanding but he turned up pretty much every night and delivered what he’s good at.

He’s so consistent he actually put up the same EXACT points, offensive/defensive rebounds, and assists numbers the last two years he was in Chicago - down to the decimal point lmao. The only thing that’s up and down was his shooting, but that’s to be expected for someone who just recently became a shooter.

Yeah Vuc has had to alter his game in Chicago a lot to accommodate DeRozan. We he was first traded here got to operate in the paint regularly he looked like a different player. I’m saying he is not responsible for an of his issues, but he is taking one for team and hasn’t complained. And AK recognizes that.

[Polynice4Pippen]

3 year 60 million is obviously not an overpay and very much a moveable contract, but this front office needs to really pick a direction.

[step]

We don't have cap space...

They have the MLE and likely the DPE from lonzo.

They minimally have the MLE and BAE, and there is no reason they should be unable to apply for and receive the DPE. The question is just whether they'll actually spend into the tax to use all of it. Other than the luxury tax, there is no reason the Bulls can't add some relatively significant pieces.

I still want to trade one of DeMar or Zach for roster construction reasons, but aside from that find myself continually frustrated by all the posts talking about how much money the Bulls have left to spend, when what is really meant is left to spend below the tax.

It can be used to trade for a player in the final season of a contract, acquire a waived player, or sign a free agent. The trick is that in all instances, it has to be a one-year commitment, with the idea being that your disabled player may be ready to return in the next season and therefore you shouldn't get a multi-season benefit for him being out.

Spot on. +1 to you and others.

Another catch on the DPE is when the Bulls apply for it... and when they 'receive' it. One would hope they've already started the ball rolling on that... but who knows what stipulations the league may have around that? Can/will it be granted all the way back in the off-season for the next season even though it's very likely he's not coming back? Or will the league go, you have to wait until it's much closer the January deadline to have him reevaluated?

My fear is that we won't have a clear indication/or the DPE in the off season to land a decent 1 year signing... so we'll be reduced to scraps. Also I have a feeling the team will wait till closer to January to see what type of the team they have... Are we 'top 6' and justify the tax? Or do they create more excuses and penny pinch? My gut is saying the latter... the fiscal reward from the tax payouts will greatly outweigh a likely first round exit.

[step]

Hollinger on The Athletic is saying that, because his extension did not involve a raise, Vuc is immediately tradeable. Like next month. I can’t see the Bulls pulling a fast one like that, but I guess it’s possible.

I thought it was 6 months though on contracts.... is that only because of raises? Damn I don't know all the little tricky stuff like Zach had some January date for his. I mean Hollinger would know this better than me but it might be a smarter play than a sign and trade in that case. Seriously though I think there is some restriction on it. Maybe because it was before FA starts?

Here is what Hollinger wrote:

The other reason to sing this extension now, rather than wait out free agency and see if Vooch could be retained for less, is that Vučević is immediately tradeable on an extension, but not as a free agent. (Also, they won’t be penalized a draft pick for leaking this on June 28, but hey, bygones).

Unlike most extensions, Vučević’s contract can be traded in July because his salary did not increase by more than 5 percent in the extension (in fact it almost certainly will decrease in 2023-24, based on the reported contract dollars), and the extension is not for more than three years. Thus, Chicago lost none of its optionality to make an upgrade on the trade market if one becomes available, and could use Vooch’s estimated $18 million in 2023-24 as a salary match.

That is fantastic news then...

[ArtMorte]

Vucevic on 20m per season is a no-brainer deal.

People who are mad about this extension should tell who they would have signed instead. The free agent market is dire.

[dougthonus]

like vorp and bpm and winshare?

Yes?

which vuc did better in.....

Those are all accumulated counting stats scores...

[dougthonus]

This take needs to die. There is not a single thing Wendell is better than Vuc at. You can use any statistic in the world. Wendell also plays 50 games per year on average.

WCJ's better at:
Three point shooting each of the past two seasons
Defending the rim
Switching and defending the perimeter
Scoring efficiency
Drawing fouls
Offensive rebounding
Not disrupting the offense by using a ton of clock to get his touches

Things Vuc is better at
Defensive rebounding
Setting Screens
Passing
Post scoring
Staying healthy

WCJ has crushed Vuc in several of their matchups, and off the top of my head, won all but one of them.

[Ballerkingn23]

This take needs to die. There is not a single thing Wendell is better than Vuc at. You can use any statistic in the world. Wendell also plays 50 games per year on average.

WCJ's better at:
Three point shooting each of the past two seasons
Defending the rim
Switching and defending the perimeter
Scoring efficiency
Drawing fouls
Offensive rebounding
Not disrupting the offense by using a ton of clock to get his touches

Things Vuc is better at
Defensive rebounding
Setting Screens
Passing
Post scoring
Staying healthy

WCJ has crushed Vuc in several of their matchups, and off the top of my head, won all but one of them.

So i'm trying to understand why we traded WCJ because if what you're saying is true we didn't just lose the trade we got swindled, and AK might not be who he was brought in to be. In fact, one might have to wonder if is he an Orlando magic mole sent here to make them better by, gifting them lottery picks plus sending out a better player than the 1 they sent back. Oh and cap relief by taking like can't get more 1 sided of a NBA deal.

[Tetlak]

This take needs to die. There is not a single thing Wendell is better than Vuc at. You can use any statistic in the world. Wendell also plays 50 games per year on average.

WCJ's better at:
Three point shooting each of the past two seasons
Defending the rim
Switching and defending the perimeter
Scoring efficiency
Drawing fouls
Offensive rebounding
Not disrupting the offense by using a ton of clock to get his touches

Things Vuc is better at
Defensive rebounding
Setting Screens
Passing
Post scoring
Staying healthy

WCJ has crushed Vuc in several of their matchups, and off the top of my head, won all but one of them.

Sorry man, this simply isn't true.

The only thing I'll give Wendell is drawing fouls. Everything else is equal or worse. For example, Vuc shot .349 and Wendell shot .354 from 3 last season. Vuc shoots .020% higher for his career, and you're giving this category to Wendell when at the most it's a draw.

Like I understand some of us are hurt from the deal. I'm not even a Vuc fan, but we need to stop acting like Wendell is anything special, and definitely need to stop acting like he's better than Vuc when Vuc crushes him in metrics, raw stats, and accomplishments. Vuc has had seasons Wendell can only dream about.

BTW here's the head to head. Decidedly in Vuc's favor.

https://stathead.com/tiny/7QMN2

[ChiefILL53]

Not only was wendell not healthy when he was with us (and still isnt), he wasnt that good in general when he played. Some of that might have been how egg head used him, but I also remember opposing bigs having big games against as well. All in all he was an ok role player that was constantly hurt. Glad to see him playing better in Orl but I dont wish we still had him, cuz he'd still be playing like 50 games and we'd be complaining about that. Its very clear that people here are treating Vuc like how Bosh was treated in Mia and Love in Cle. Players that had to greatly alter their playstyles to fit the teams better and when they didnt play well, they caught flack for it.

[jordanwilliams6]

Wendell played another 57 games this season and has never played one single healthy season. Averages 52 games per season in his career.

The deal was bad but I don’t miss WCJ at all and never will.

[dougthonus]

Sorry man, this simply isn't true.

The only thing I'll give Wendell is drawing fouls. Everything else is equal or worse. For example, Vuc shot .349 and Wendell shot .354 from 3 last season. Vuc shoots .020% higher for his career, and you're giving this category to Wendell when at the most it's a draw.

He's been better at 3s each of the last two seasons, but agree, it's basically a wash. Career numbers older than two years really aren't relevant.

Everything else, completely true. Carter is dramatically better and more versatile defensively, and while Vuc is definitely more skilled offensively, all those skills generally have not added up to great productivity offensively throughout his career because he doesn't get to the line and doesn't shoot 3s effectively, so he has no real efficient leg of offense. He chews up a ton of clock when you try to get him involved putting more pressure on every one else and requires you find unicorn players to mask his deficiencies. None of which is true of Carter.

Carter's a low rung starter / 3rd big, but he helps you win games more than Vuc and costs a shade over half as much money.

Like I understand some of us are hurt from the deal. I'm not even a Vuc fan, but we need to stop acting like Wendell is anything special, and definitely need to stop acting like he's better than Vuc when Vuc crushes him in metrics, raw stats, and accomplishments. Vuc has had seasons Wendell can only dream about.

Wendell isn't anything special. Wendell is still better than Vuc, because Vuc also isn't anything special. The Magic are considerably better when he plays, the Bulls are considerably worse when Vuc plays. In an alternate universe where someone handed out Drummond a massive deal instead of him getting put on the vet min, and then played him a ton because of it, he'd have amazing stats, better than Vuc's, and people would be makign the same arguments for him.

BTW here's the head to head. Decidedly in Vuc's favor.

https://stathead.com/tiny/7QMN2

Yeah, my memory was starting in 21-22 first full season of post trade:
Game 1: 21-11-26: Carter outplays Vuc
Game 2: 22-01-03: Carter outplays Vuc
Game 3: 22-02-01: Carter outplays Vuc
Game 4: 22-11-18: Carter outplays Vuc
Game 5: 23-01-28: Vuc outplays Carter
Game 6: 23-02-13: More or less a draw

If you go older than that, including their 1 match up post trade in 20-21, Vuc very clearly outplayed Carter, but I don't care what Vuc did 3 years ago prior to the trade for Orlando.

Every defense about Vuc is him putting up counting stats and ignoring the impact he has on the team or on the floor. His per minute counting stats are nothing special though. Mo Wagner or Mason Plumlee or Andre Drummond would put up similar counting stats in the same number of minutes played.

[_txchilibowl_]

None of that matters if you're only in the court for 60% of the games. Availability is the best ability.

[dougthonus]

None of that matters if you're only in the court for 60% of the games. Availability is the best ability.

I don't think Carter's injury history is particularly concerning due to the types of injuries he's had and don't think that he's particularly more likely to be hurt going forward. This isn't a guy who's had a bunch of knee, foot, and back injuries that project to large issues going forward.

Despite the difference in history, I place them as having relatively similar injury risk going forward. I completely understand why you wouldn't agree with that assessment, but I've done quite a bit of research in the past on sports injuries and how they project going forward and there are types of injuries that make it more likely you will get hurt and ones that are fluky. Most of Carter's stuff has been in the fluky category.

The most concerning of his injuries is the foot, but it was viewed as a plantar fascia sprain and not a recurrent injury, but otherwise he missed long stretches due to a thumb ligament, eye, and abs. Those aren't injuries that project into the future in any meaningful way.

Again, totally get the "it's always something with this guy" mentality that you'd build up, but historically, these types of things aren't good predictors of future injuries whereas things like knee surgeries / back surgeries are.

Vuc has been extremely healthy for his career for a big man, especially considering he's on the heavier size, probably partially because he's a fairly ground-bound guy and so that puts less strain on his knees/feet/back. At his age, he's at a point where guys his size just tend to break down though. I'd say given his history and game, he should trend better than typical for a guy his size though so don't foresee any particular reason to think he'll get hurt even with the age. He's never shown significant signs of wear or just needing rest days or anything.

I'd say Vuc has less injury risk going forward, but I'd probably put Carter at something like expecting to miss 15 games and Vuc at like 10 if for some reason I was asked to make injury projections for each the next year.

[Bandit King]

Vuc likes the techno dance clubs here

[Stratmaster]

Say what? Vuc played 25 more games, had a higher per, averaged more rebounds and they shot a very similar efficency. And Vuc's Vorp was much higher and winshare and bpm too. Vuc was better. Now I'd rather have Franz than any of them and Carter has abetter deal but Vuc is better than Wendell Carter. And this is on a team with 2 wings that forget about him.

Everything you named is based on counting stats. Impact stats are all the regressed +/- stuff. Vuc was one of the worst impact stat guys on the team for each of the past two seasons, ie, we always play bad when he plays.

Yeah...if you believe in +/- stats for individuals you are missing all the context. This discussion has been had many times in this board and I think you have even stated as much ... except when justifying why Vuc is bad.

They are the only argument ever seen for why WCJ is better than Vuc. No one in the league seems to see WCJ at the same level as Vuc.

On/off stats world make the big 3 the 2nd, 4th and 5th worst players on the team, with PWill first and Ayo 3rd. Whoa... what a surprising coincidence. That was the bull starting lineup Donovan put on the court.

But holy ****. Green, Caruso, White and DJJ are all-star level. Another surprising coincidence. I guess we can conclude those were the guys who should have been playing 38 mpg?

Yet Vuc is in the Bulls best lineup with over 100 minutes at +13.4. And the 3rd best at +10.3. And the 4th best at +3.4. And the 5th best at +1.1. And the 6th best at +0.8. In the 5 lineups Vuc was in that were negative (only 2 of which had 100 minutes or more) Patrick Williams was in 4 of them and Pat and Ayo were BOTH in 3 of them.

Your narrative about WCJ was in vogue BEFORE last season. When some were predicting WCJ was a rising star. That talk all disappeared during last season.