Shams: Bulls extend Vuc (3/60)

[League Circles]

This take needs to die. There is not a single thing Wendell is better than Vuc at. You can use any statistic in the world. Wendell also plays 50 games per year on average.

WCJ's better at:
Three point shooting each of the past two seasons
Defending the rim
Switching and defending the perimeter
Scoring efficiency
Drawing fouls
Offensive rebounding
Not disrupting the offense by using a ton of clock to get his touches

Things Vuc is better at
Defensive rebounding
Setting Screens
Passing
Post scoring
Staying healthy

WCJ has crushed Vuc in several of their matchups, and off the top of my head, won all but one of them.

Fwiw, Vuc is also better at limiting fouls and turnovers.

[dougthonus]

Yeah...if you believe in +/- stats for individuals you are missing all the context. This discussion has been had many times in this board and I think you have even stated as much ... except when justifying why Vuc is bad.

I can discuss the reasons why Vuc is bad in greater detail without the impact stats, but the impact stats help explain it.

The reasons why he is bad:
His lack of defensive versatility changes everything we do on both ends of the floor to protect him
He lacks the natural efficient legs of offense of three point shooting and foul drawing
Possessions that run through him take a lot of clock which often lead to bad shots for other players on the team
His limitations reduce optionality and increase predictability on both ends of the floor

They are the only argument ever seen for why WCJ is better than Vuc. No one in the league seems to see WCJ at the same level as Vuc.

Actually listen to any neutral national guy talk about this trade, and you'll find almost everyone in the league other than deluded Bulls fans see Vuc as a pedestrian player. Guys like Hollinger, Simmons, Duncan, Lowe, etc... These aren't talking heads guys like Stephen A. Smith, they're some of the best analytical basketball guys covering the sport.

On/off stats world make the big 3 the 2nd, 4th and 5th worst players on the team, with PWill first and Ayo 3rd. Whoa... what a surprising coincidence. That was the bull starting lineup Donovan put on the court.

If you look at the impact stats that isn't true, I'm not looking at raw on/off. DeMar is #1, Caruso is #2, Zach is #4 on the team. Pat and Vuc are the worst.

Your narrative about WCJ was in vogue BEFORE last season. When some were predicting WCJ was a rising star. That talk all disappeared during last season.

As described, I never viewed WCJ as a rising star. I explicitly said he was a fringe starter / 3rd big man. Vuc is a sub MLE level player living on name recognition. If you paid Andre Drummond and played him 28 minutes a game, every argument you make about Vuc would apply to Drummond too. Two time all-star! Puts up huge numbers! Especially on the glass!

[Stratmaster]

This take needs to die. There is not a single thing Wendell is better than Vuc at. You can use any statistic in the world. Wendell also plays 50 games per year on average.

WCJ's better at:
Three point shooting each of the past two seasons
Defending the rim
Switching and defending the perimeter
Scoring efficiency
Drawing fouls
Offensive rebounding
Not disrupting the offense by using a ton of clock to get his touches

Things Vuc is better at
Defensive rebounding
Setting Screens
Passing
Post scoring
Staying healthy

WCJ has crushed Vuc in several of their matchups, and off the top of my head, won all but one of them.

He crushed Vuc head to head? Off the top of your head? Did you go look at their head to head stats? I did. Vuc beats him in every production stat.

Vuc also turns the ball over less than WCJ.

[Stratmaster]

Yeah...if you believe in +/- stats for individuals you are missing all the context. This discussion has been had many times in this board and I think you have even stated as much ... except when justifying why Vuc is bad.

I can discuss the reasons why Vuc is bad in greater detail without the impact stats, but the impact stats help explain it.

The reasons why he is bad:
His lack of defensive versatility changes everything we do on both ends of the floor to protect him
He lacks the natural efficient legs of offense of three point shooting and foul drawing
Possessions that run through him take a lot of clock which often lead to bad shots for other players on the team
His limitations reduce optionality and increase predictability on both ends of the floor

They are the only argument ever seen for why WCJ is better than Vuc. No one in the league seems to see WCJ at the same level as Vuc.

Actually listen to any neutral national guy talk about this trade, and you'll find almost everyone in the league other than deluded Bulls fans see Vuc as a pedestrian player. Guys like Hollinger, Simmons, Duncan, Lowe, etc... These aren't talking heads guys like Stephen A. Smith, they're some of the best analytical basketball guys covering the sport.

On/off stats world make the big 3 the 2nd, 4th and 5th worst players on the team, with PWill first and Ayo 3rd. Whoa... what a surprising coincidence. That was the bull starting lineup Donovan put on the court.

If you look at the impact stats that isn't true, I'm not looking at raw on/off. DeMar is #1, Caruso is #2, Zach is #4 on the team. Pat and Vuc are the worst.

Your narrative about WCJ was in vogue BEFORE last season. When some were predicting WCJ was a rising star. That talk all disappeared during last season.

As described, I never viewed WCJ as a rising star. I explicitly said he was a fringe starter / 3rd big man. Vuc is a sub MLE level player living on name recognition. If you paid Andre Drummond and played him 28 minutes a game, every argument you make about Vuc would apply to Drummond too. Two time all-star! Puts up huge numbers! Especially on the glass!

You stopped arguing that WCJ is better and are now arguing that Vuc is "pedestrian". Your doing a lot of dancing on this subject.

And you say WCJ is a "fringe starter". But one of the top double double guys in the league is "sub-MLE". Don't let your credibility die on this hill.

[dougthonus]

He crushed Vuc head to head? Off the top of your head? Did you go look at their head to head stats? I did. Vuc beats him in every production stat.

Vuc also turns the ball over less than WCJ.

Head to Head as in when they played against each other, which I outlined later.

[dougthonus]

You stopped arguing that WCJ is better and are now arguing that Vuc is "pedestrian". Your doing a lot of dancing on this subject.

No, I think WCJ is better than Vuc. He's also pedestrian. I didn't say WCJ was a rising star. I think he's a low rung starter / 3rd big. I think Vuc is similar though lesser in the same tier.

And you say WCJ is a "fringe starter". But one of the top double double guys in the league is "sub-MLE". Don't let your credibility die on this hill.

Double double machine is just a junk description that doesn't provide any meaningful value as to how he helps your team win, which he doesn't. Andre Drummond would be a double double machine if you let him play as many minutes as Vuc.

[bad knees]

Did Stein actually say this? I dunno but I got a bad feeling about AD.

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[MrSparkle]

TBF, Vuc beats Wendell in almost every statistical category, except raw 3P% (by a menial digit), and he’s able to play more games and more minutes.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2023&year_max=2023&player_id1=cartewe01&player_id2=vucevni01

Wendell gets the better of him in match-ups. Painfully obvious that Vuc will get roasted in any 1-on-1 if you leave him on an island. On that note though, I don’t think the league remembers Kukoc for his tendency to get schooled in mismatches.

Regardless… If you build to Vuc’s strengths (defensive tweeners with size at forward, a two-way PnR PG), he’s better.

[bad knees]

More details on what Stein had to say about AD. Ugh.

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[jnrjr79]

They have the MLE and likely the DPE from lonzo.

They minimally have the MLE and BAE, and there is no reason they should be unable to apply for and receive the DPE. The question is just whether they'll actually spend into the tax to use all of it. Other than the luxury tax, there is no reason the Bulls can't add some relatively significant pieces.

I still want to trade one of DeMar or Zach for roster construction reasons, but aside from that find myself continually frustrated by all the posts talking about how much money the Bulls have left to spend, when what is really meant is left to spend below the tax.

It can be used to trade for a player in the final season of a contract, acquire a waived player, or sign a free agent. The trick is that in all instances, it has to be a one-year commitment, with the idea being that your disabled player may be ready to return in the next season and therefore you shouldn't get a multi-season benefit for him being out.

Spot on. +1 to you and others.

Another catch on the DPE is when the Bulls apply for it... and when they 'receive' it. One would hope they've already started the ball rolling on that... but who knows what stipulations the league may have around that? Can/will it be granted all the way back in the off-season for the next season even though it's very likely he's not coming back? Or will the league go, you have to wait until it's much closer the January deadline to have him reevaluated?

My fear is that we won't have a clear indication/or the DPE in the off season to land a decent 1 year signing... so we'll be reduced to scraps. Also I have a feeling the team will wait till closer to January to see what type of the team they have... Are we 'top 6' and justify the tax? Or do they create more excuses and penny pinch? My gut is saying the latter... the fiscal reward from the tax payouts will greatly outweigh a likely first round exit.

I read somewhere that you can't apply for the DPE until 6/30 or 7/1, so they haven't (and can't have) applied for it yet. There was a report maybe a week ago that the Bulls were having an internal meeting about whether to apply for it, which makes no sense to me. Just apply for it! If ownership says no to the tax, you don't have to use it, but there's no reason not to have it available just in case.

[Bullflip]

So now that Drummond is gone, is Marko our backup? Lol

[MrSparkle]

AD joining Mavs… That makes more sense. IMO he deserves to start, and he’s strangely better than Vuc.. if you follow the working 22 mpg C plan. (Small ball C the rest of the game)

[drosestruts]

They minimally have the MLE and BAE, and there is no reason they should be unable to apply for and receive the DPE. The question is just whether they'll actually spend into the tax to use all of it. Other than the luxury tax, there is no reason the Bulls can't add some relatively significant pieces.

I still want to trade one of DeMar or Zach for roster construction reasons, but aside from that find myself continually frustrated by all the posts talking about how much money the Bulls have left to spend, when what is really meant is left to spend below the tax.

It can be used to trade for a player in the final season of a contract, acquire a waived player, or sign a free agent. The trick is that in all instances, it has to be a one-year commitment, with the idea being that your disabled player may be ready to return in the next season and therefore you shouldn't get a multi-season benefit for him being out.

Spot on. +1 to you and others.

Another catch on the DPE is when the Bulls apply for it... and when they 'receive' it. One would hope they've already started the ball rolling on that... but who knows what stipulations the league may have around that? Can/will it be granted all the way back in the off-season for the next season even though it's very likely he's not coming back? Or will the league go, you have to wait until it's much closer the January deadline to have him reevaluated?

My fear is that we won't have a clear indication/or the DPE in the off season to land a decent 1 year signing... so we'll be reduced to scraps. Also I have a feeling the team will wait till closer to January to see what type of the team they have... Are we 'top 6' and justify the tax? Or do they create more excuses and penny pinch? My gut is saying the latter... the fiscal reward from the tax payouts will greatly outweigh a likely first round exit.

I read somewhere that you can't apply for the DPE until 6/30 or 7/1, so they haven't (and can't have) applied for it yet. There was a report maybe a week ago that the Bulls were having an internal meeting about whether to apply for it, which makes no sense to me. Just apply for it! If ownership says no to the tax, you don't have to use it, but there's no reason not to have it available just in case.

Makes sense that you wouldn't be able to apply for and be granted a DPE until the official start of the new season, which I don't believe we've reached yet.

[bad knees]

So now that Drummond is gone, is Marko our backup? Lol

Mavs just traded for Richaun Holmes and drafted Dereck Lively. So if they add AD, they likely will let Dwight Powell walk and will waive Javale McGee.

Powell will probably cost too much and McGee is toast, I think. But there will be options at the vet min. There always are, at least for C position.

Actually, given Holmes and Lively, I’m surprised that AD is going to the Mavs.

[bad knees]

The Bulls gave Vuc his money. I don’t think they’re going to give him more touches.

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[dougthonus]

I read somewhere that you can't apply for the DPE until 6/30 or 7/1, so they haven't (and can't have) applied for it yet. There was a report maybe a week ago that the Bulls were having an internal meeting about whether to apply for it, which makes no sense to me. Just apply for it! If ownership says no to the tax, you don't have to use it, but there's no reason not to have it available just in case.

Applying for it means you can't apply for medical retirement. That's probably much more valuable, because if you apply for medical retirement next year, it will be AFTER all the FAs have signed, if you hold and apply for medical retirement at the 2 year anniversary date of his injury, as an example, you can clean him off the books before the trade deadline and before next year's FA and have a lot more optionality in both time periods.

The thing is, we already know whether we can use the DPE internally, and hint, the answer is no. We don't have to guess whether ownership will go into the tax, tehy'll outright tell you.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

The Bulls gave Vuc his money. I don’t think they’re going to give him more touches.

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That would be unfortunate. Along with being a contract year and this guy likely working harder, I think a part of his increased offensive efficiency this year was less shots. He didn’t jack up those transition 3s as much, and overall was more choosy in his shots. It wasn’t a big drop, but it was certainly better than the previous year.

[League Circles]

Maaaaaaaaan. I knew Drummond was going to opt out despite what he said.

We're pretty screwed.

We need 3 significant rotation players now, assuming we re-sign Coby.

[bad knees]

Double post

[ChiefILL53]

The Bulls gave Vuc his money. I don’t think they’re going to give him more touches.

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I cant see him agreeing to the extension if Billy didnt tell him he was gonna use him differently. Theres a follow up tweet that mentions apparently billy noted how guards missed opportunities to get him the ball on mismatches.