Re: Trade Talk (Part Twelve): 2023 Playoff Push Edition

[Neeva]

Right especially when one was against the nba champs and the other was against Philly. Thanks for correcting that poster’s fake news, it boggles my mind that someone can make such emboldened statements without fact checking lol on google.

[moss_is_1]

Plus how many games did Kat play after coming off a 50 some game absence from injury? He was still shaking off rust going into the playoffs, then faced the NBA champions who were gameplanning to stop him. Teams aren't gameplanning to stop Cam Johnson.

[thinktank]

Right especially when one was against the nba champs and the other was against Philly. Thanks for correcting that poster’s fake news, it boggles my mind that someone can make such emboldened statements without fact checking lol on google.

We have data on KAT’s playoff series verses Houston and Memphis and they’re also about the same as Cam’s Philly series.

It does not appear he’s worth 50 million / year for first round performances like that.

That’s really the bottom line.

[Neeva]

Plus how many games did Kat play after coming off a 50 some game absence from injury? He was still shaking off rust going into the playoffs, then faced the NBA champions who were gameplanning to stop him. Teams aren't gameplanning to stop Cam Johnson.

The nets fans on their forum were complaining about Cam Johnson non stop calling him a one dimensional soon to be overpaid player also.

[thinktank]

Plus how many games did Kat play after coming off a 50 some game absence from injury? He was still shaking off rust going into the playoffs, then faced the NBA champions who were gameplanning to stop him. Teams aren't gameplanning to stop Cam Johnson.

The nets fans on their forum were complaining about Cam Johnson non stop calling him a one dimensional soon to be overpaid player also.

So we have evidence that KAT and Cam are both being talked about it in the same way (overpaid)—the difference being that one will likely be paid twice as much as the other.

That’s not good for us.

Circling back to my original point, I don’t see Brooklyn as off the table for a KAT deal. Not at all. Maybe that’s because I don’t see KAT’s deal as as good of a trade asset as others here do.

[Neeva]

Ok just make sure to come back for your crow when Kat is traded for far more than Cam Johnson.

[moss_is_1]

Right especially when one was against the nba champs and the other was against Philly. Thanks for correcting that poster’s fake news, it boggles my mind that someone can make such emboldened statements without fact checking lol on google.

We have data on KAT’s playoff series verses Houston and Memphis and they’re also about the same as Cam’s Philly series.

It does not appear he’s worth 50 million / year for first round performances like that.

That’s really the bottom line.

I agree he's been bad in the postseason compared to what he is regularly. However there's still chances he can improve. He needs to figure out to take go back into the post, settle down on the offensive fouls down there when he's going up against a little. He creates mismatches, he has gravity with his shooting. Cam Johnson is a role player.

[thinktank]

Ok just make sure to come back for your crow when Kat is traded for far more than Cam Johnson.

Why would I eat crow when I never said KAT for Cam straight up?

[shrink]

I doubt GMs are going to base the worth of these players on 5 games for KAT and 4 for Cam.

Of course GMs don’t base player worth on 4 or 5 games.

They have three playoff series worth of data for KAT and none of them are good. Zero.

We have one playoff series for Cam and it’s as good as any of KAT’s three series.

KAT makes 50 million next year and what will Cam make? 25?

Yikes. But hey, KAT is saving a ring finger for a championship! He’s won at every level (but college and NBA)!

We have three playoff series for Cam, and he’s averaged 3.6 RPG, 1.2 APG, 10.2 PPG. In KAT’s three “none of them are good” series, he averaged 11.2 RPG, 2.1 APG, 18.2 PPG. Playoff teams aren’t designing their defenses to double-team Cam Johnson. Moreover, the bulk of work Towns has put up over his career, the accolades he’s achieved, the leaderboards he’s been on dwarf a player like Cam Johnson.

But we all value players differently, and there’s no harm in that. I was just surprised by this extreme position for a guy like Cam Johnson, so I was curious about how you arrived at that conclusion.

[thinktank]

Right especially when one was against the nba champs and the other was against Philly. Thanks for correcting that poster’s fake news, it boggles my mind that someone can make such emboldened statements without fact checking lol on google.

We have data on KAT’s playoff series verses Houston and Memphis and they’re also about the same as Cam’s Philly series.

It does not appear he’s worth 50 million / year for first round performances like that.

That’s really the bottom line.

I agree he's been bad in the postseason compared to what he is regularly. However there's still chances he can improve. He needs to figure out to take go back into the post, settle down on the offensive fouls down there when he's going up against a little. He creates mismatches, he has gravity with his shooting. Cam Johnson is a role player.

Yes, KAT has potential to do better.

Very shortly his deal will become one of the worst in the league. He’s the new Beal.

Anything can happen (Beal or KAT could win a chip).

It’s ok that Cam is a role player. We’re not going to get a star back for KAT—that’s a prediction I will make.

[thinktank]

I doubt GMs are going to base the worth of these players on 5 games for KAT and 4 for Cam.

Of course GMs don’t base player worth on 4 or 5 games.

They have three playoff series worth of data for KAT and none of them are good. Zero.

We have one playoff series for Cam and it’s as good as any of KAT’s three series.

KAT makes 50 million next year and what will Cam make? 25?

Yikes. But hey, KAT is saving a ring finger for a championship! He’s won at every level (but college and NBA)!

We have three playoff series for Cam, and he’s averaged 3.6 RPG, 1.2 APG, 10.2 PPG. In KAT’s three “none of them are good” series, he averaged 11.2 RPG, 2.1 APG, 18.2 PPG. Moreover, the bulk of work Towns has put up over his career, the accolades he’s achieved, the leaderboards he’s been on dwarf a player like Cam Johnson.

But we all value players differently, and there’s no harm in that. I was just surprised by this extreme position for a guy like Cam Johnson, so I was curious about how you arrived at that conclusion.

As I said, KAT’s playoff production is flat and Cam is trending up. They did almost the same thing just this year. (We all know why Cam didn’t play more in Phoenix—that’s data is just noise.)

[shrink]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

[thinktank]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

Getting to the playoffs is not the ultimate goal. We shouldn’t be designing the team to get to the playoffs. We should be designing the team to win a championship. We should be designing a team to use that 50/year as best as we can.

[m2002brian]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

It’s harder to quantify than with or without him. It’s a false dichotomy.

If we trade him, it’s not for nothing. It’s for a player or players who play and contribute.
Last season we would have been better if for 50+ games we had at least a serviceable PF who can score 15ppg and play average NBA defense. It wouldn’t have left our team short handed and extending itself further into the bench. The reason this matters is obvious once you understand Kats injury history over the past 4 seasons.

As far as the playoffs are concerned, it’s is important for as a team to know where production and playmaking is coming from. If your star foreword, that you are counting to score and playmaker is less effective scoring and ineffective passing (see playoff assist to to ratio) it changes what the team can do. That’s a major problem when the whole point of having that player is building a system to use that player in ways that now don’t work.

So call me a KAT hater, but I like to think of myself as a Timberwolves lover. It’s for the better of the team as a whole, but not for some of the trash trades I’ve seen posted. It’s not trade him at all costs. Maybe it’s as simple as knowing what you have come playoff time and don’t plan to run your team that way, even if it amounts to regular season success. It’s a trap come playoff time.

[shrink]

I know that people that want KAT traded focus on his injuries the last four seasons (and usually ignore the first four seasons), but is there any evidence whatsoever that his injuries are correlated?

Or is there any evidence that these injuries are likely to lead to future injuries?

I have never seen evidence that either of these are true, but that’s the implication I hear often.

[KGdaBom]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

Getting to the playoffs is not the ultimate goal. We shouldn’t be designing the team to get to the playoffs. We should be designing the team to win a championship. We should be designing a team to use that 50/year as best as we can.

You can't design a team to win a championship. You design a team to be as good as possible and then what happens happens.

[shrink]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

Getting to the playoffs is not the ultimate goal. We shouldn’t be designing the team to get to the playoffs. We should be designing the team to win a championship. We should be designing a team to use that 50/year as best as we can.

Umm .. who said it was the ultimate goal?

Would you agree that MISSING the playoffs would have been a big negative?

Would you agree that Towns return was a big part of us making the playoffs?

[m2002brian]

I know that people that want KAT traded focus on his injuries the last four seasons (and usually ignore the first four seasons), but is there any evidence whatsoever that his injuries are correlated?

Or is there any evidence that these injuries are likely to lead to future injuries?

I have never seen evidence that either of these are true, but that’s the implication I hear often.

It speaks to conditioning as a whole. But also, some players are just injury prone.
We just spend some time talking about LaVert. Why does he seem to injured so often? Back to KAT. Big guys take a bigger toll. It would actually be more likely, as a big, the older he gets, the more likely it is to be injured.

[thinktank]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

Getting to the playoffs is not the ultimate goal. We shouldn’t be designing the team to get to the playoffs. We should be designing the team to win a championship. We should be designing a team to use that 50/year as best as we can.

Umm .. who said it was the ultimate goal?

Would you agree that MISSING the playoffs would have been a big negative?

Would you agree that Towns return was a big part of us making the playoffs?

I would agree that he was a big part of us making the playoffs!

But we have to be honest with ourselves and compare his value on our team to others players / assets on our team.

We could be very well be a better team with two younger two-way players on 25M/yr deals over one one-way KAT at 50 per.

[thinktank]

Personally, I always feel Towns gets a pretty bad rap for the playoffs. It’s not just that people tend to be unaware of his numbers, but it is a pretty big question that MIN would have even MADE the playoffs without Towns.

Towns came back for the last nine games of the season, to a team that was 36-37. He immediately had the key shot in the 1 point “storybook” win over ATL, and the Wolves won their next three games. The Jeckle-and-Hyde Wolves then lost their next three, and needed to win their final three to get the 8th seed. Towns was excellent in those games, and BRK and NOP definitely had playoff ambitions. Then, he almost single-handedly beat the Lakers in the play in game, with Ant shooting like 4-20 with 8 turnovers, but ran out of gas in the middle of the fourth quarter. Finally, his size (and the rest of the team’s) overpowered OKC.

We went 6-3 with Towns, and if we had lost those first couple games, DAL wouldn’t have tanked and we could easily have finished 11th. If we had been the ninth or tenth seed, and needed to win two consecutive games to make the playoffs, our odds were 25% - perhaps less given our inability to put wins together. People knock Towns for this year’s playoff performance, but I doubt we would have even BEEN in the playoffs without him.

Getting to the playoffs is not the ultimate goal. We shouldn’t be designing the team to get to the playoffs. We should be designing the team to win a championship. We should be designing a team to use that 50/year as best as we can.

You can't design a team to win a championship. You design a team to be as good as possible and then what happens happens.

Some GMs have choices to make between being ok every year and being very, very good for a short time and then rebuilding.

Everybody wants to be good, but teams absolutely do make risk-it-all moves to win a championship. Phoenix is an extreme example.

I’m not saying let’s risk it all for a chip now. We’re not Phoenix.

But we have to set our sights higher. Connelly just talked about this on kfan with Danny B. KAT talks like he’s a winner but he isn’t. I don’t like that type of “leadership” at that price.