The Chicago Bulls Are Stuck in NBA Hell

[drosestruts]

Some short memories Bulls fans. Are you already longing for the days of winning 22 games like 2017 - 2020.

I'll never understand why other teams' young players have unlimited untapped potential, but our young players are what they are.

I see people on this board clamoring for Jalen Suggs or RJ Hampton, then in the next breath dismissing Patrick Williams, Dalen Terry, or even Julian Phillips before he's every stepped foot on an NBA court.

Debbie-downers through and through. Seems to be a Chicago sports fan thing in general, not limited to just the Bulls.

If you look at the league most teams have young players who have shown more potential than the one's on the Bulls.

Orlando: Banchero, Wagner, WCJ (?) and as you mention Suggs. They also get to add whoever they drafted.
Toronto: Scottie Barnes. Plus OG might improve.
Portland: Scoot, Sharpe and Simons. Little is okay.
Pacers: Mathurin, Haliburton (already an all-star) and Andrew Nembhard.
OKC: SGA, Giddey, Jaylen Williams, Jaylin Williams, Chet plus whoever they drafted.
Rockets: Jalen Green, Senguin, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith and Amen Thompson
Spurs: Devin Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Victor.
Utah: Walker Kessler, Lauri (is he still considered a young player?), plus lots of future picks to work with.

That's off the top of my head and I could go on, but you get my point.

You could argue that those teams haven't won anything in recent years, but the Bulls haven't either (finished 10th place). Also, I bet many of those players have more value around the league than Coby, Patrick and Ayo (definitely more than Phillips, Dalen and Marko).

This is always interesting to me. Some of these players have absolutely demonstrated being better than any of our younger players - SGA, Haliburton, Giddey, Wagner.

Others though I'm not as convinced about - they're just on a team with lower expectations and have more minutes and opportunities. Bulls fans, but not necessarily you, dismissed what Zach has done for years has being empty stats, so to hear that and then see people claiming a Jalen Green is showing good things just doesn't track for me.

Some of this to me is also an example of the boards frequent "grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.

Mathuring scored 16 points per game sure, but on terrible accuracy. Give Dalen Terry 30 minutes a night and a green light and you probably get the same. Not sure what Nembhard has shown to warrant inclusion on this list?

Think we'll probably want to wait to see multiple guys on this list play an NBA game before annointing them. Chet already missing a year with an injury with his body type doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'd put most of these guys in the same tier as Williams and White. And I think White's second half of the season last year is probably a better 22-game stretch than the majority of players listed here.

[bad knees]

NBA Hell for me is tanking and playing meaningless basketball for 4-6 years. So, no, I would not say that the Bulls are in NBA Hell.

The Bulls just finished in 10th place. Was that "meaningful" basketball?

Did you sleep through the season? Competitive throughout and improving at the end of the year. Frustrating at times as well, but only because I knew they could be better. Good guys to root for. Quite meaningful to me and many others. Looking forward to next year too, unless they tank.

[The Force.]

Obviously. I guess for people outside of Chicago this is some sort of revelation.

[dougthonus]

Your post jogged my memory a bit. Not sure why or when he changed, but I like casual, fun, funny Simmons, and for whatever reason get turned off by the serious, conviction having Simmons. I agree he knows his stuff and is a good writer. If he's reverted to more of the funny Simmons, I'd probably like him again.

The podcast is mostly funny Simmons. I mean his takes are all legitimate, but he makes them all light heartedly with lots of joking around. Only thing that annoys me, is there is too much gambling based content due to their sponsors, a problem I find on a fair amount of shows these days. I guess it is interesting for some, but I hate it.

[dougthonus]

Did you sleep through the season? Competitive throughout and improving at the end of the year. Frustrating at times as well, but only because I knew they could be better. Good guys to root for. Quite meaningful to me and many others. Looking forward to next year too, unless they tank.

I don't know that I'd say competitive throughout. Up until the trade deadline, they looked like they were going to win about 35 games and miss the play-in. There was a legitimate discussion about how they could trivially get to #5 in the lotto standings. They ended the season well though.

[Dan Z]

Some short memories Bulls fans. Are you already longing for the days of winning 22 games like 2017 - 2020.

I'll never understand why other teams' young players have unlimited untapped potential, but our young players are what they are.

I see people on this board clamoring for Jalen Suggs or RJ Hampton, then in the next breath dismissing Patrick Williams, Dalen Terry, or even Julian Phillips before he's every stepped foot on an NBA court.

Debbie-downers through and through. Seems to be a Chicago sports fan thing in general, not limited to just the Bulls.

If you look at the league most teams have young players who have shown more potential than the one's on the Bulls.

Orlando: Banchero, Wagner, WCJ (?) and as you mention Suggs. They also get to add whoever they drafted.
Toronto: Scottie Barnes. Plus OG might improve.
Portland: Scoot, Sharpe and Simons. Little is okay.
Pacers: Mathurin, Haliburton (already an all-star) and Andrew Nembhard.
OKC: SGA, Giddey, Jaylen Williams, Jaylin Williams, Chet plus whoever they drafted.
Rockets: Jalen Green, Senguin, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith and Amen Thompson
Spurs: Devin Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Victor.
Utah: Walker Kessler, Lauri (is he still considered a young player?), plus lots of future picks to work with.

That's off the top of my head and I could go on, but you get my point.

You could argue that those teams haven't won anything in recent years, but the Bulls haven't either (finished 10th place). Also, I bet many of those players have more value around the league than Coby, Patrick and Ayo (definitely more than Phillips, Dalen and Marko).

This is always interesting to me. Some of these players have absolutely demonstrated being better than any of our younger players - SGA, Haliburton, Giddey, Wagner.

Others though I'm not as convinced about - they're just on a team with lower expectations and have more minutes and opportunities. Bulls fans, but not necessarily you, dismissed what Zach has done for years has being empty stats, so to hear that and then see people claiming a Jalen Green is showing good things just doesn't track for me.

Some of this to me is also an example of the boards frequent "grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.

Mathuring scored 16 points per game sure, but on terrible accuracy. Give Dalen Terry 30 minutes a night and a green light and you probably get the same. Not sure what Nembhard has shown to warrant inclusion on this list?

Think we'll probably want to wait to see multiple guys on this list play an NBA game before annointing them. Chet already missing a year with an injury with his body type doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'd put most of these guys in the same tier as Williams and White. And I think White's second half of the season last year is probably a better 22-game stretch than the majority of players listed here.

You downplay some of those players because they got minutes on bad teams, but what did the Bulls do to develop their young players? Terry and Marko were non-existant. Ayo regressed. Did PW show improvement? Coby was the only one who improved. I'd understand it more if the Bulls were winning games.

I'm not sure if Terry could score 16 points a game like Mathurin if he was given the minutes. There's a reason why Mathurin was drafted higher than Terry and always scored more than him (going back to College). I know scoring doesn't mean better, but so far Mathurin has shown more (and was the better prospect coming into the league).

I mention Andrew Nembhard because he had a solid rookie year for a 2nd round pick. I guess that's similar to Ayo's rookie season?

I agree with you that Zach gets criticized too much for putting up "empty stats". Yes, his teams have generally been bad, but that's not all his fault. I have issue with him (his decision-making in particular), but he's better than some people give him credit for.

[Dan Z]

Did you sleep through the season? Competitive throughout and improving at the end of the year. Frustrating at times as well, but only because I knew they could be better. Good guys to root for. Quite meaningful to me and many others. Looking forward to next year too, unless they tank.

I don't know that I'd say competitive throughout. Up until the trade deadline, they looked like they were going to win about 35 games and miss the play-in. There was a legitimate discussion about how they could trivially get to #5 in the lotto standings. They ended the season well though.

I'd add that I'm not sure if you can use the end of the season to really judge how this team will be going forward. I know you're not saying that, but I often see posts where they take a sample size of a season and say "If we played like that for a full year we'd be good!". Most seasons have their ups and downs (for any team) and last year for the Bulls it wasn't a good one. I don't care how "competitive" they were at times, they finished 10th (a competitive team at least gets into the playoffs).

[Dan Z]

Has there been any talk about DDR getting an extension?

[Dominator83]

Didn't know Bill Simons was still a thing.

NBA hell is a figment of the imagination of desperate "writers".

We have what, like half the cap committed to after next season? Yeah, totally "stuck" lol.

But, but, but we don't have "future assets" to improve with!

(Looks around at great players selected with picks anyone could have in Jokic, Butler, Giannis, Kawhi, etc)

I don't disagree but the "future assets" argument is key. All of the bottom dwellers have even assembled a massive amount of young talent and we really don't have anyone outside of Pat and Coby. Look at Houston, OKC, Orlando, Detroit, Portland, Utah, etc. I would trade rosters/future pick status with all of those rosters. The Bulls have a roster built to be a 5-10 seed and no future upside. That is NBA hell and the Bulls have been stuck in it for the better part of 25 years.

Well you just listed the Boonies of the NBA and we are not those markets and so all the Bulls need to is what other big market teams have done for a while which is develop relationships and position themselves as preferred destinations so that after all those picks are seasoned in 2-3 years in the boonies you can step in and pick them up via free agency or trades.

We're not the Lakers.

[_txchilibowl_]

I don't disagree but the "future assets" argument is key. All of the bottom dwellers have even assembled a massive amount of young talent and we really don't have anyone outside of Pat and Coby. Look at Houston, OKC, Orlando, Detroit, Portland, Utah, etc. I would trade rosters/future pick status with all of those rosters. The Bulls have a roster built to be a 5-10 seed and no future upside. That is NBA hell and the Bulls have been stuck in it for the better part of 25 years.

Well you just listed the Boonies of the NBA and we are not those markets and so all the Bulls need to is what other big market teams have done for a while which is develop relationships and position themselves as preferred destinations so that after all those picks are seasoned in 2-3 years in the boonies you can step in and pick them up via free agency or trades.

We're not the Lakers.

So? We're the Chicago Bulls, an iconic franchise with a storied past. Top 5 market for endorsements. We could absolutely become a destination team provided we quit tanking every 5 years and lumping ourselves in with the Detroit Pistons of the world.

Just because we are not the preeminent franchise in the NBA doesn't mean we can't position ourselves to hang with them.

[drosestruts]

If you look at the league most teams have young players who have shown more potential than the one's on the Bulls.

Orlando: Banchero, Wagner, WCJ (?) and as you mention Suggs. They also get to add whoever they drafted.
Toronto: Scottie Barnes. Plus OG might improve.
Portland: Scoot, Sharpe and Simons. Little is okay.
Pacers: Mathurin, Haliburton (already an all-star) and Andrew Nembhard.
OKC: SGA, Giddey, Jaylen Williams, Jaylin Williams, Chet plus whoever they drafted.
Rockets: Jalen Green, Senguin, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith and Amen Thompson
Spurs: Devin Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Victor.
Utah: Walker Kessler, Lauri (is he still considered a young player?), plus lots of future picks to work with.

That's off the top of my head and I could go on, but you get my point.

You could argue that those teams haven't won anything in recent years, but the Bulls haven't either (finished 10th place). Also, I bet many of those players have more value around the league than Coby, Patrick and Ayo (definitely more than Phillips, Dalen and Marko).

This is always interesting to me. Some of these players have absolutely demonstrated being better than any of our younger players - SGA, Haliburton, Giddey, Wagner.

Others though I'm not as convinced about - they're just on a team with lower expectations and have more minutes and opportunities. Bulls fans, but not necessarily you, dismissed what Zach has done for years has being empty stats, so to hear that and then see people claiming a Jalen Green is showing good things just doesn't track for me.

Some of this to me is also an example of the boards frequent "grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.

Mathuring scored 16 points per game sure, but on terrible accuracy. Give Dalen Terry 30 minutes a night and a green light and you probably get the same. Not sure what Nembhard has shown to warrant inclusion on this list?

Think we'll probably want to wait to see multiple guys on this list play an NBA game before annointing them. Chet already missing a year with an injury with his body type doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'd put most of these guys in the same tier as Williams and White. And I think White's second half of the season last year is probably a better 22-game stretch than the majority of players listed here.

You downplay some of those players because they got minutes on bad teams, but what did the Bulls do to develop their young players? Terry and Marko were non-existant. Ayo regressed. Did PW show improvement? Coby was the only one who improved. I'd understand it more if the Bulls were winning games.

I'm not sure if Terry could score 16 points a game like Mathurin if he was given the minutes. There's a reason why Mathurin was drafted higher than Terry and always scored more than him (going back to College). I know scoring doesn't mean better, but so far Mathurin has shown more (and was the better prospect coming into the league).

I mention Andrew Nembhard because he had a solid rookie year for a 2nd round pick. I guess that's similar to Ayo's rookie season?

I agree with you that Zach gets criticized too much for putting up "empty stats". Yes, his teams have generally been bad, but that's not all his fault. I have issue with him (his decision-making in particular), but he's better than some people give him credit for.

Glad we agree on Coby improving.

Really no way to tell how Terry would have done if given 30 minutes and a green light. It's purely hypothetical, but Mathurin's efficiency was so poor I feel like most players could replicate it.

But I think the biggest thing from your response I'd want to address is Patrick Williams? Did he show improvement this year and throughout the year? In my view, yes, lots of it.

Williams scoring and efficiency are up, and his efficiency was higher in the second half of the season vs the first, so improvement throughout the year too.

A lot of good growth from Williams this year, a lot of it broken down better here than I can - https://theswishtheory.com/nba/2023/02/patrick-williams-more-than-a-role-player/

Improved 3PAr and accuracy

90th percentile in isolation defense

95th percentile in foul percentage - that's elite defense without fouling, often guarding the other teams' best player

A nice clip of Williams' defense and it being recognized by Doris Burke from our play-in game

Watch on YouTube

[Am2626]

I can’t listen to these two dudes for 35 minutes regardless of who they are. But if you are right you are right. I don’t know their rationale, but their conclusion is correct by my definition of “NBA Hell.”

The important thing to remember here is that we absolutely do not have to be and it is completely within the organization’s power to change that any time they want.

My definition of NBA hell is watching a team win 30 games or less in a season.

Obviously, heaven being in the Finals.

The Bulls are somewhere in-between.

If ownership wants to pay to bring in stars they absolutely can but they won’t do it because it will cut into their profit margins. As was pointed out earlier the Bulls at anytime can make the moves needed to be a championship contender. They just choose not to do so.

[SfBull]

No. Most teams are in NBA purgatory.

We are in hell.

Thanks for the clarification.

For a while I thought that NBA purgatory “was” hell.

Me too.

But then we replaced GarPax with Arturas who is setting a new standard for incompetence.

Very well said.

[Bandit King]

Europax!!!

[GoBlue72391]

Call it whatever you want, but the fact is we're not good enough for the playoffs and we're too good to get a good draft pick.

[D_GoLow]

I appreciated Bill putting on his GM hat to try and fix the Bulls. I love his podcast more than any podcasts out there. He's my #1 listen ahead of the CHGO podcast. Those guys get way too into the add reads which annoys me.

[D_GoLow]

Has there been any talk about DDR getting an extension?

If we want Pat to take a legit step into becoming a player, I really hope not.

[Dan Z]

This is always interesting to me. Some of these players have absolutely demonstrated being better than any of our younger players - SGA, Haliburton, Giddey, Wagner.

Others though I'm not as convinced about - they're just on a team with lower expectations and have more minutes and opportunities. Bulls fans, but not necessarily you, dismissed what Zach has done for years has being empty stats, so to hear that and then see people claiming a Jalen Green is showing good things just doesn't track for me.

Some of this to me is also an example of the boards frequent "grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.

Mathuring scored 16 points per game sure, but on terrible accuracy. Give Dalen Terry 30 minutes a night and a green light and you probably get the same. Not sure what Nembhard has shown to warrant inclusion on this list?

Think we'll probably want to wait to see multiple guys on this list play an NBA game before annointing them. Chet already missing a year with an injury with his body type doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'd put most of these guys in the same tier as Williams and White. And I think White's second half of the season last year is probably a better 22-game stretch than the majority of players listed here.

You downplay some of those players because they got minutes on bad teams, but what did the Bulls do to develop their young players? Terry and Marko were non-existant. Ayo regressed. Did PW show improvement? Coby was the only one who improved. I'd understand it more if the Bulls were winning games.

I'm not sure if Terry could score 16 points a game like Mathurin if he was given the minutes. There's a reason why Mathurin was drafted higher than Terry and always scored more than him (going back to College). I know scoring doesn't mean better, but so far Mathurin has shown more (and was the better prospect coming into the league).

I mention Andrew Nembhard because he had a solid rookie year for a 2nd round pick. I guess that's similar to Ayo's rookie season?

I agree with you that Zach gets criticized too much for putting up "empty stats". Yes, his teams have generally been bad, but that's not all his fault. I have issue with him (his decision-making in particular), but he's better than some people give him credit for.

Glad we agree on Coby improving.

Really no way to tell how Terry would have done if given 30 minutes and a green light. It's purely hypothetical, but Mathurin's efficiency was so poor I feel like most players could replicate it.

But I think the biggest thing from your response I'd want to address is Patrick Williams? Did he show improvement this year and throughout the year? In my view, yes, lots of it.

Williams scoring and efficiency are up, and his efficiency was higher in the second half of the season vs the first, so improvement throughout the year too.

A lot of good growth from Williams this year, a lot of it broken down better here than I can - https://theswishtheory.com/nba/2023/02/patrick-williams-more-than-a-role-player/

Improved 3PAr and accuracy

90th percentile in isolation defense

95th percentile in foul percentage - that's elite defense without fouling, often guarding the other teams' best player

A nice clip of Williams' defense and it being recognized by Doris Burke from our play-in game

Watch on YouTube

I agree with you that Patrick Williams improved, but we probably differ on how much. I also suspect that he wasn't great when you rank him against all the other starting power forwards in the league. To be fair, he's still young and doesn't have a lot of experience.

Hopefully next year he takes a big leap forward.

However, there are many young players (on other teams) that I'd take over him.

Tyrese Haliburton (same draft as PW)
Scottie Barnes
Franz Wagner
Paolo Banchero
LaMelo Ball (who I don't like that much, but he'd help the team).
SGA
Evan Mobley
Darius Garland
Trae Young
Jaren Jackson Jr
Tyrese Maxey
Scoot Henderson (I only mention him because there was a lot of talk about him recently)

And I'd probably take these players over him too:
Josh Giddey
Jalen Williams
DeAndre Hunter
Shaedon Sharpe
Walker Kessler
Jaden Ivey
Trey Murphy

It's a shame that the Bulls didn't do a better job of developing the young players they drafted. From the 2017 NBA draft on (6 years) the best player they have to show for it is Coby White (and he's not a starter).

If Lauri was probably developed here (meaning Utah level Markkanen) then the team would be in a different situation right now (a better one IMO).

[PJSteven22]

Didn't know Bill Simons was still a thing.

NBA hell is a figment of the imagination of desperate "writers".

We have what, like half the cap committed to after next season? Yeah, totally "stuck" lol.

But, but, but we don't have "future assets" to improve with!

(Looks around at great players selected with picks anyone could have in Jokic, Butler, Giannis, Kawhi, etc)

He still has one of the most popular sports podcasts.

That's a great accomplishment for someone so unlikable.

That’s just your opinion

[Wingy]

Deep thoughts…

Man. I still can’t believe they didn’t tank for Wemby at the deadline.