Draymond vs Karl Malone

[eminence]

I don't think the PC board is really the place for a discussion on what players/rich folks generally can/can't get away with in society.

Could y'all lay off it?

[Colbinii]

I don't think the PC board is really the place for a discussion on what players/rich folks generally can/can't get away with in society.

Could y'all lay off it?

Seems OT

[migya]

The thought of KM not scoring well in the playoffs is blatantly wrong. Overall he shot worse but that view is blind. Did the Jazz win with Ostertag carrying their scoring????

[Asianiac_24]

Draymond is a better defender and passer, but Malone is flat out a better basketball player. Unless you have an all star team of scoring talent (ie. 2024 Suns, 2018 GS), I don't see an argument for Draymond. Even with those teams I still see an argument for Malone. It's not like he was a chair on defense.

[lessthanjake]

Here is a photo of Emily Ratajkowski at age 14. I can provide other examples if you like. All Malone's lawyers need is plausible deniability, and a sympathetic jury who doesn't want to convict a famous person will let him walk. We can all agree Malone is a terrible human being, but I could see him getting off even today.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10070261/Emily-Ratajkowski-reveals-sexualized-young-age.html

Not to re-derail things, but just FYI for people, statutory rape statutes in many states are worded to be “strict liability” offenses—which basically means that you don’t have to know that the person was underaged for it to be a crime.

For instance, in this case, I believe it happened in the state of Louisiana. Louisiana Revised Statutes 14:80 makes it a crime for someone who is 17 years or older to have sex with someone who is 13-16 years old when the age gap is at least 4 years and the two are not married. That would fit the bill here. And, crucially, the statute explicitly states that “Lack of knowledge of the juvenile's age shall not be a defense.”

So, if Malone had been charged with such an offense (he no longer could be, since I believe the statute of limitations has run), his lawyers would *not* have been able to make a defense based on the idea that he didn’t know the victim’s age. It is likely that a judge would preclude them from even making such an argument to the jury at all, but even if they were allowed to present evidence to that effect, the jury instructions would’ve ultimately made clear to the jury that, under the relevant statute, lack of knowledge of her age does not matter. Of course, a jury can decide to acquit regardless of anything (i.e. jury nullification), but Karl Malone would not have been able to get off on the basis of not knowing her age.

[One_and_Done]

Depends on the jurisdiction yeh, but who is to say it would come out and he'd be charged today before the statute of limitations ran out. From a financial POV it's not in the victim's intetests for him to go to jail probably, so it depends how people react to the new context.

[uberhikari]

Here is a photo of Emily Ratajkowski at age 14. I can provide other examples if you like. All Malone's lawyers need is plausible deniability, and a sympathetic jury who doesn't want to convict a famous person will let him walk. We can all agree Malone is a terrible human being, but I could see him getting off even today.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10070261/Emily-Ratajkowski-reveals-sexualized-young-age.html

I was going to leave this alone but this is so ridiculous that I can't help myself.

When Gloria Bell gave birth, Karl Malone was 20 years old and she was 13.

This is the year of our lord 2023. I need you to explain to me what jury would be sympathetic to a man under these circumstances. If this happened today, statutory rape would be the least of Malone's problems. Prosecutors would be bringing criminal sexual conduct charges.

[One_and_Done]

If she looked like Emily R I think many might aquit if there was reasonable doubt about his state of mind.

She was 13 when impregnated btw, not when she gave birth. Still not good, but we should state his transgressions accurately.
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/karl-malone-responds-to-criticism-after-getting-a-13-year-old-pregnant-back-when-he-was-20

[KobesScarf]

Karl Malone is closer to Curry than Draymond.

Yup and Draymond is closer to Greg Ostertag than Karl Malone

[KobesScarf]

Only on RealGM are you going to see serious discussion about a 14x All NBA, 2x MVP, 3rd leading scorer in NBA history vs a glorified role player

Yall never cease to amaze me

[uberhikari]

If she looked like Emily R I think many might aquit if there was reasonable doubt about his state of mind.

She was 13 when impregnated btw, not when she gave birth. Still not good, but we should state his transgressions accurately.
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/karl-malone-responds-to-criticism-after-getting-a-13-year-old-pregnant-back-when-he-was-20

Why do you keep bringing up this Emily R person? It's irrelevant. This isn't 1963; it's 2023. You can't get away with the "she looks older than she was defense."

And Malone's state of mind is not an element of the crimes with which he'd be charged, so his state of mind is also irrelevant.

You do realize it's possible to be both impregnated and give birth when you're the same age, right? Gloria Bell was 13 when she gave birth.

[One_and_Done]

In many jurisdictions that is indeed a defence.

[lessthanjake]

In many jurisdictions that is indeed a defence.

Not in most states, though, and crucially not in the state in which this actually happened. Mistake of age would not have been a valid defense for him.

[Cavsfansince84]

If she looked like Emily R I think many might aquit if there was reasonable doubt about his state of mind.

She was 13 when impregnated btw, not when she gave birth. Still not good, but we should state his transgressions accurately.
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/karl-malone-responds-to-criticism-after-getting-a-13-year-old-pregnant-back-when-he-was-20

Why do you keep bringing up this Emily R person? It's irrelevant. This isn't 1963; it's 2023. You can't get away with the "she looks older than she was defense."

And Malone's state of mind is not an element of the crimes with which he'd be charged, so his state of mind is also irrelevant.

You do realize it's possible to be both impregnated and give birth when you're the same age, right? Gloria Bell was 13 when she gave birth.

Also possible that if Malone were born in 2000 he wouldn't do what he did. Not that it was considered normal back then to do what he did but knowing you most likely won't get away with doing it can be a major deterrent.

[OhayoKD]

what exactly are you looking at when you assume green needs to come with curry and klay to be better than karl malone. Absence of evidence =/ evidence of absence

I was being mildly sarcastic…but that’s also why I said in a vacuum it’s definitely Malone. In a vacuum meaning we have no clue what the other variables are, but if you ask me to pick one first yeah it’s Malone and not all that close. Far longer, and more durable prime and career, and more suitable for a number one offensive option. It’s not complicated, even though you probably want to make it that way.

Player who scores more = better is simple. Accurate? Not really clear outside of PER charts

[penbeast0]

what exactly are you looking at when you assume green needs to come with curry and klay to be better than karl malone. Absence of evidence =/ evidence of absence

I was being mildly sarcastic…but that’s also why I said in a vacuum it’s definitely Malone. In a vacuum meaning we have no clue what the other variables are, but if you ask me to pick one first yeah it’s Malone and not all that close. Far longer, and more durable prime and career, and more suitable for a number one offensive option. It’s not complicated, even though you probably want to make it that way.

Player who scores more = better is simple. Accurate? Not really clear outside of PER charts

The player who scores more, rebounds more, has a longer career, and misses less games is presumably better unless you can show that the impact of Dray's defense and assists is greater than Malone's scoring and rebounding. Because the scoring, rebounding, and health bonuses are easy to see and quantify, the burden is probably on the people claiming superior defensive and playmaking impact.

We had this debate a lot between Karl Malone and Dennis Rodman when they were playing and again, with a clear box score advantage, the burden was on the people claiming greater outside of box score impact. We do have better tools to look at this today than we had then though.

[OhayoKD]

Player who scores more = better is simple. Accurate? Not really clear outside of PER charts

The player who scores more, rebounds more, has a longer career, and misses less games is presumably better unless you can show that the impact of Dray's defense and assists is greater than Malone's scoring and rebounding. Because the scoring, rebounding, and health bonuses are easy to see and quantify, the burden is probably on the people claiming superior defensive and playmaking impact.

My original post(which no-more-ring left a substantial portion off from) specifically specifies peak. So we're left with scoring vs passing, league-leading defense impact(as well as top-tier situational signals), team-wide two-way coordination, and massive playoff elevation with the Warriors looking like a solid playoff team without Steph. There are literal box-scores aggregations with dennis rodman as the best player in the league and dennis rodman was not even the best defender on the Bulls. So no I do not think one should assume a advantage for scoring vs ball-handling, defense, playmaking and goat-lvl IQ.

As is, we have seen two arguable league-best forces combine league-best d, iq, and good to top-tier passing in both Walton and Bill Russell. When has a 2nd-tier offensive force hit that high? Maybe Kobe in 2008(not really comparable to walton in-era I think) and Kobe is a better passer, a better ball-handler and a more resilient scorer who works better off-the ball. What basis are we assuming a malone-type offensive star automatically exceeds a player like draymond at their best?

[1993Playoffs]

Malone by far. Much Better player for Far longer