Re: Trade Talk (Part Twelve): 2023 Playoff Push Edition

[MN7725]

. He didn’t help Butler win a series and he’s not helping Ant.

Don’t you mean, Butler didn’t help KAT win a series?

Towns had 13.4 RPG to go with his 15.2 points, and shot 20 points higher than Jimmy (15) or Wiggins (17). Granted, Jimmy was kind of beat up at the end of the season, but that’s why he wasn’t Jimmy.

And in the regular season, Towns was far far superior than Jimmy. KAT was actually second in Win Shares, behind MVP Harden, in front of LeBron, Curry, etc.

Of course, I don’t want to use any real life data to interfere with your entirely one-sided arguments, so feel free to continue.

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

I'm not in the "trade KAT" camp, but

KAT vs. Houston was probably the 2nd most embarrassing playoff performance in recent history (Ben Simmons being #1)

that is why KAT went from being #1 player to build a Franchise around in the GM poll before that season to never making that list again

[thinktank]

Don’t you mean, Butler didn’t help KAT win a series?

Towns had 13.4 RPG to go with his 15.2 points, and shot 20 points higher than Jimmy (15) or Wiggins (17). Granted, Jimmy was kind of beat up at the end of the season, but that’s why he wasn’t Jimmy.

And in the regular season, Towns was far far superior than Jimmy. KAT was actually second in Win Shares, behind MVP Harden, in front of LeBron, Curry, etc.

Of course, I don’t want to use any real life data to interfere with your entirely one-sided arguments, so feel free to continue.

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

I will agree with you that Butler is a good player. He's also a POS and I wish him nothing but the worst in life. He signed a contract and he should have honored it rather than be an **** and make a mockery of the game. There should have been some kind of rule in place where he would not have got away with what he did.

That’s some fine hypotheticals you’re dealing with but it happened and he made the right decision for himself. He ended up in the Finals and the ECF as a result.

KAT being soft was a huge part of his decision (“Wiggins has the highest ceiling on this team”, said Butler—and then Wiggins went and got a ring).

[thinktank]

Don’t you mean, Butler didn’t help KAT win a series?

Towns had 13.4 RPG to go with his 15.2 points, and shot 20 points higher than Jimmy (15) or Wiggins (17). Granted, Jimmy was kind of beat up at the end of the season, but that’s why he wasn’t Jimmy.

And in the regular season, Towns was far far superior than Jimmy. KAT was actually second in Win Shares, behind MVP Harden, in front of LeBron, Curry, etc.

Of course, I don’t want to use any real life data to interfere with your entirely one-sided arguments, so feel free to continue.

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

I'm not in the "trade KAT" camp, but

KAT vs. Houston was probably the 2nd most embarrassing playoff performance in recent history (Ben Simmons being #1)

that is why KAT went from being #1 player to build a Franchise around in the GM poll before that season to never making that list again

Yeah that box score interpretation doesn’t impress me at all. Watch the games. KAT couldn’t even get the ball or get a shot off on many possessions. We desperately needed him and he was floating around.

[younggunsmn]

Vucevic re-signing for 3/60 does not help the trade values of Gobert (3/141) or KAT (5/260).
Not one little bit.

Maybe. But he also turns 33 before the season starts, and this is a 3 year deal.

The Rockets are paying Fred VanVleet 2/85. Giant contracts aren’t disappearing.

Gobert is 31 on a 3 year deal (edit: 3/132 (41/44/47). They are very comparable.
There is a 24 million per year difference between the two. And a 32 million per year different between him and KAT.
Vucevic is a 20/10 player. That deal is a problem for us.

Rockets are a bottom feeders desperate to sign a big name. That's an outlier.
VanVleet looked like trash the first half of last year.
Someone is going to get stuck with a terrible contract there.

Harden not getting the money he expected from the Sixers so now he wants out.
It's going to be very interesting to see where some of these free agent contracts come in.
Are they going to be lower than expected like Vucevic?
I don't think we will be seeing the year of the Mozgov deals.

[KGdaBom]

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

I will agree with you that Butler is a good player. He's also a POS and I wish him nothing but the worst in life. He signed a contract and he should have honored it rather than be an **** and make a mockery of the game. There should have been some kind of rule in place where he would not have got away with what he did.

That’s some fine hypotheticals you’re dealing with but it happened and he made the right decision for himself. He ended up in the Finals and the ECF as a result.

KAT being soft was a huge part of his decision (“Wiggins has the highest ceiling on this team”, said Butler—and then Wiggins went and got a ring).

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

[younggunsmn]

I will agree with you that Butler is a good player. He's also a POS and I wish him nothing but the worst in life. He signed a contract and he should have honored it rather than be an **** and make a mockery of the game. There should have been some kind of rule in place where he would not have got away with what he did.

That’s some fine hypotheticals you’re dealing with but it happened and he made the right decision for himself. He ended up in the Finals and the ECF as a result.

KAT being soft was a huge part of his decision (“Wiggins has the highest ceiling on this team”, said Butler—and then Wiggins went and got a ring).

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

He was not wrong about KAT. He was not wrong about having a better chance to win in Miami, even with a super weak supporting cast.
He may have been an ahole to get traded, but he perceived his situation correctly.

[KGdaBom]

That’s some fine hypotheticals you’re dealing with but it happened and he made the right decision for himself. He ended up in the Finals and the ECF as a result.

KAT being soft was a huge part of his decision (“Wiggins has the highest ceiling on this team”, said Butler—and then Wiggins went and got a ring).

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

He was not wrong about KAT. He was not wrong about having a better chance to win in Miami, even with a super weak supporting cast.
He may have been an ahole to get traded, but he perceived his situation correctly.

First of all he went to Philly not Miami. I think he's wrong about KAT and he should have been a better teammate to him. In the end he's still a POS.

[shrink]

. He didn’t help Butler win a series and he’s not helping Ant.

Don’t you mean, Butler didn’t help KAT win a series?

Towns had 13.4 RPG to go with his 15.2 points, and shot 20 points higher than Jimmy (15) or Wiggins (17). Granted, Jimmy was kind of beat up at the end of the season, but that’s why he wasn’t Jimmy.

And in the regular season, Towns was far far superior than Jimmy. KAT was actually second in Win Shares, behind MVP Harden, in front of LeBron, Curry, etc.

Of course, I don’t want to use any real life data to interfere with your entirely one-sided arguments, so feel free to continue.

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

What? I’m sorry, did you not say, “KAT didn’t help Butler win that series?”

Wait, that’s exactly what you said!

You know who was worse than KAT in the playoff series you focused on? Butler. And every single Wolves player. So yeah, Butler didn’t help KAT. And Aaron Brooks didn’t help Marcus George Hunt win one either. Winning a playoff series is a team effort, and Jimmy deserves more blame than KAT.

Weird how you bring up that specific series, when Jimmy wasn’t good, and base your prediction of KAT and Ant on that. Worse, you then suddenly go running off to .. “but in other series, that had entirely different players ..!” Seems like when the facts don’t match your narrative, you run off to some new area, instead of trying to defend your position. That’s not “good faith,” my friend! You see that you’re wrong about the series you brought up, right?

By your logic, last year Jokic didn’t help Aaron Gordon win a championship.

[younggunsmn]

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

He was not wrong about KAT. He was not wrong about having a better chance to win in Miami, even with a super weak supporting cast.
He may have been an ahole to get traded, but he perceived his situation correctly.

First of all he went to Philly not Miami. I think he's wrong about KAT and he should have been a better teammate to him. In the end he's still a POS.

All of the trade talk at the time was focused on Miami, that was Butler's preferred destination.
The trade to Philadelphia was basically a middle finger to Miami.

Being a nice guy doesn't make you a great teammate, there are plenty of other ways to be a poor teammate like being a whiny passive aggressive pouter who can't take criticism or responsibility for one.
3 Terrbile playoff performances in 3 trips.

I will stop before I talk myself into wanting to trade KAT again.
I don't have time for that rabbit hole lol.

[younggunsmn]

Don’t you mean, Butler didn’t help KAT win a series?

Towns had 13.4 RPG to go with his 15.2 points, and shot 20 points higher than Jimmy (15) or Wiggins (17). Granted, Jimmy was kind of beat up at the end of the season, but that’s why he wasn’t Jimmy.

And in the regular season, Towns was far far superior than Jimmy. KAT was actually second in Win Shares, behind MVP Harden, in front of LeBron, Curry, etc.

Of course, I don’t want to use any real life data to interfere with your entirely one-sided arguments, so feel free to continue.

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

What? I’m sorry, did you not say, “KAT didn’t help Butler win that series?”

Wait, that’s exactly what you said!

You know who was worse than KAT in the playoff series you focused on? Butler. And every single Wolves player. So yeah, Butler didn’t help KAT. And Aaron Brooks didn’t help Marcus George Hunt win one either. Winning a playoff series is a team effort, and Jimmy deserves more blame than KAT.

Weird how you bring up that specific series, when Jimmy wasn’t good, and base your prediction of KAT and Ant on that. Worse, you then suddenly go running off to .. “but in other series, that had entirely different players ..!” Seems like when the facts don’t match your narrative, you run off to some new area, instead of trying to defend your position. That’s not “good faith,” my friend! You see that you’re wrong about the series you brought up, right?

By your logic, last year Jokic didn’t help Aaron Gordon win a championship.

Kind of banged up?
People love to forget Butler got hurt that year and risked shortening his career by removing the meniscus rather than repairing it so he could come back that season and help the Wolves make the playoffs. He came back early and was far from 100%.

That series was the beginning of KAT getting punked by teams successfully guarding him with a small player.
And he' has yet to show the ability to counter it.
If there was a moment Butler soured on KAT and decided to move on, it happened in that series.

[thinktank]

I will agree with you that Butler is a good player. He's also a POS and I wish him nothing but the worst in life. He signed a contract and he should have honored it rather than be an **** and make a mockery of the game. There should have been some kind of rule in place where he would not have got away with what he did.

That’s some fine hypotheticals you’re dealing with but it happened and he made the right decision for himself. He ended up in the Finals and the ECF as a result.

KAT being soft was a huge part of his decision (“Wiggins has the highest ceiling on this team”, said Butler—and then Wiggins went and got a ring).

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

Winning >>> POS

[thinktank]

Don’t you mean, Butler didn’t help KAT win a series?

Towns had 13.4 RPG to go with his 15.2 points, and shot 20 points higher than Jimmy (15) or Wiggins (17). Granted, Jimmy was kind of beat up at the end of the season, but that’s why he wasn’t Jimmy.

And in the regular season, Towns was far far superior than Jimmy. KAT was actually second in Win Shares, behind MVP Harden, in front of LeBron, Curry, etc.

Of course, I don’t want to use any real life data to interfere with your entirely one-sided arguments, so feel free to continue.

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

What? I’m sorry, did you not say, “KAT didn’t help Butler win that series?”

Wait, that’s exactly what you said!

You know who was worse than KAT in the playoff series you focused on? Butler. And every single Wolves player. So yeah, Butler didn’t help KAT. And Aaron Brooks didn’t help Marcus George Hunt win one either. Winning a playoff series is a team effort, and Jimmy deserves more blame than KAT.

Weird how you bring up that specific series, when Jimmy wasn’t good, and base your prediction of KAT and Ant on that. Worse, you then suddenly go running off to .. “but in other series, that had entirely different players ..!” Seems like when the facts don’t match your narrative, you run off to some new area, instead of trying to defend your position. That’s not “good faith,” my friend! You see that you’re wrong about the series you brought up, right?

By your logic, last year Jokic didn’t help Aaron Gordon win a championship.

You can have your point about Butler being injured in the Houston series and guess what? KAT still didn’t step up. Your point changes very little:

KAT has not played good enough to win a playoff series as an alpha or beta on our team. And he talks like winning is a foregone conclusion. And he’s gonna make 50 million a year.

We thought KAT would at least progress with Embiid and Jokic too.

It hasn’t happened. He’s the same guy he’s always been. A one-way, complaining, zero self-awareness, player who, funny, also hasn’t played well in the playoffs.

Gee. I wonder why?

[KGdaBom]

That’s some fine hypotheticals you’re dealing with but it happened and he made the right decision for himself. He ended up in the Finals and the ECF as a result.

KAT being soft was a huge part of his decision (“Wiggins has the highest ceiling on this team”, said Butler—and then Wiggins went and got a ring).

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

Winning >>> POS

Think tank now you're just getting ridiculous. As a parent I would rather my children be good people than be a famous, rich, winning athlete. If you're a decent person you should respect somebody for being a good person more than being rich, famous, and winning.

[thinktank]

There's nothing hypothetical about Butler being an ahole and a POS. Those are facts. So what about how far he got in the playoffs if it took being a POS to get there. Not a right decision.

Winning >>> POS

Think tank now you're just getting ridiculous. As a parent I would rather my children be good people than be a famous, rich, winning athlete. If you're a decent person you should respect somebody for being a good person more than being rich, famous, and winning.

Ok, man. I think we both have this covered by now. I’m out.

[fattymcgee]

Got it. KAT is a negative contract and if we could trade him away for nothing but cap space it would be a miracle for us. I happen to think KAT is great and could make a huge contribution to our championship team.

I understand that you really love KAT.

Who is advocating a trade of KAT for nothing but cap space? Those types of extreme jumps to conclusions do not facilitate good faith discussion.

I was skeptical before, but this is the extreme thinktank from Rube Chat, just trolling here to get his kicks.

“Good faith discussion” was the tip off!

Yup, typical thinktank.

[KGdaBom]

Winning >>> POS

Think tank now you're just getting ridiculous. As a parent I would rather my children be good people than be a famous, rich, winning athlete. If you're a decent person you should respect somebody for being a good person more than being rich, famous, and winning.

Ok, man. I think we both have this covered by now. I’m out.

OK, but I want to give you some background for my totally despising Butler. I loved when we got him. I just wish it had been Wiggins instead of LaVine. I respected and admired him as an old school hardnosed player. A lot of people were ripping on Butler after the season, but I was one of his biggest defenders. Then he crapped all over me and Wolves fans by not honoring his contract. If he wanted out requesting a trade is fine. However, no team is ever obligated to honor that request. He took his desire to move on to an all time low with what he pulled. He could have played out his contract and moved on. That would have been doing it the right way.

[shrink]

We know who Butler is. He has made multiple runs deep into the playoffs. He chose not to continue playing next to KAT and he made the right decision as evidenced by his continued playoff success.

Waiting on KAT yet.

That’s data too.

What? I’m sorry, did you not say, “KAT didn’t help Butler win that series?”

Wait, that’s exactly what you said!

You know who was worse than KAT in the playoff series you focused on? Butler. And every single Wolves player. So yeah, Butler didn’t help KAT. And Aaron Brooks didn’t help Marcus George Hunt win one either. Winning a playoff series is a team effort, and Jimmy deserves more blame than KAT.

Weird how you bring up that specific series, when Jimmy wasn’t good, and base your prediction of KAT and Ant on that. Worse, you then suddenly go running off to .. “but in other series, that had entirely different players ..!” Seems like when the facts don’t match your narrative, you run off to some new area, instead of trying to defend your position. That’s not “good faith,” my friend! You see that you’re wrong about the series you brought up, right?

By your logic, last year Jokic didn’t help Aaron Gordon win a championship.

You can have your point about Butler being injured in the Houston series and guess what? KAT still didn’t step up. Your point changes very little:

KAT has not played good enough to win a playoff series as an alpha or beta on our team. And he talks like winning is a foregone conclusion. And he’s gonna make 50 million a year.

We thought KAT would at least progress with Embiid and Jokic too.

It hasn’t happened. He’s the same guy he’s always been. A one-way, complaining, zero self-awareness, player who, funny, also hasn’t played well in the playoffs.

Gee. I wonder why?

What? I’m jus repeating your own words here.

You said “KAT didn’t help Butler win a playoff series” Butler was worse than KAT, and since he was injured, wasn’t “helping Butler win a playoff series” really just another unfair expectation?

Then, when you get caught, you try to divert your argument to a list of other complaints?

This is enough for me.

[Slim Tubby]

Internal development. With the exception of maybe Kyle Anderson and Mike Conley, every player on the team could be better next year, especially with better health, and time this season to practice together and develop more continuity. Ant and Jaden could be dramatically better over the next few years, and we have several young players like Minott that could improve greatly.

We’ve seen this already. Naz improved. Ant and Jaden improved. And they are not at their ceilings.

People need to stop this narrative that the Wolves have no way to improve.

Nope. Players never improve. Teams never become more cohesive. Draft picks never outperform expectations. Guys never fully recover from injuries. Rule changes never happen in the NBA. Player values never improve. Just shut it down. Move to Seattle or Vegas. All is lost.

The top two players were paying - one has actually never improved he can't even catch a ball, and the other is constantly getting hurt.

We have yet to become more cohesive, since like KG.

Maybe one or two outperform all expectations here, the most bust. Or should we look at our history of draft picks?

The point isnt oh yeah we're all **** lets move the franchise it's to temper expectations. Even last year there were so many posters saying we'd be a 55+ win team.

Then we went 42-40 and we were all disappointed. I'd like to believe we'll crack 50 wins this season, but I'm not holding my breath. My guess is we'll probably win 46-47. We'll win our first playoff series and then get bounced.

You have every reason to feel the way you do as a Wolves fan. It's been tough. I've been supporting this team since 1989 when they drafted Pooh and I threw my bowl of Count Chocula at the TV because they passed on Timmy Hardaway.

You might prove to be correct when this all plays out. For me personally, if all I have left is negativity and pessimism for this team, I'll just find something else to be passionate about. Until then/if that ever happens, there's always hope!

[Norseman79]

Can we take conversation not about trades to a different thread?

[TimberKat]

I don’t know man.

KAT had never missed a game with a calf injury in seven years. Kind of hard for me to think that suddenly his calf wasn’t properly conditioned, or that his calf got hurt because he’s suddenly injury prone.

If it’s back - back - back, or left knee - left knee - left knee, I think that’s a legitimate case. And I understand compensation injuries. But random injuries are random. I think that labeling random injuries as injury-prone is a myth that people use when they see an effect and want to create a simplistic cause.

What if his injuries are related to general awkwardness?

The guy sure flails around out there plenty.

Seems like another effect choosing a cause. For example, awkwardness didn’t cause him to miss games with Covid. Or did he suddenly get awkward after four years without missing a game?

He is going to get injured next year and there is a lot of ways that could happen like punch a wall, do push ups, or hit by a foul ball in Yankee Stadium.
Seriously, I am one of the few that see him more as a pwf than center. He gets push around by big guys like Embiid or Adams and could get injured that way. Having Gobert take some of those punishment should actually help him with the wear and tear.
Sorry, this is about trades, so don't trade him and don't listen to the stupid rumors from Dallas.