Peak Only: Kobe/Jokic vs Curry/Giannis

[Matt15]

Peak only, which duo would you rather have?

[lessthanjake]

That’s a good one. There’s not a clear right answer to me. If I had to choose, I’d probably go with Curry/Giannis though. My reasoning is basically that both involve a top-tier all-time great offensive player (Curry and Jokic) alongside another volume scorer that was a great defender, but if I have to choose between having a great big-man defender or a great wing defender then I’d choose the big man.

[mdonnelly1989]

Imagine how much Giannis and Curry would open eachothers game up for eachother.

Plus I don't see Jokic doing that for Kobe as much since he needed the ball to create his own shot most of the time.

[Dutchball97]

I think the talent levels are pretty close but I trust Jokic and Kobe more to show up when it matters most.

[One_and_Done]

Curry and Giannis are the 2 best players with the best fit, so easy call.

[uberhikari]

I have not been impressed by Giannis's PS offense outside of 2021. The exact same problems that plagued him before he won FMVP in 2021 have come back to bite him in both 2022 and 2023. Furthermore, Curry has also had his fair share of post-season struggles in addition to his durability problems. So, Kobe/Jokic for me.

[OhayoKD]

Peak only, which duo would you rather have?

Curry/Giannis absolutely obliterates

[OhayoKD]

I have not been impressed by Giannis's PS offense outside of 2021. The exact same problems that plagued him before he won FMVP in 2021 have come back to bite him in both 2022 and 2023. Furthermore, Curry has also had his fair share of post-season struggles in addition to his durability problems. So, Kobe/Jokic for me.

Those issues didn't stop the team from elevating in 19, 21 and 22 overall and the Bucks very nearly went 3-0 up on a 60+win team + an all-time two-way wing as was.

Curry+Giannis forces defenses to cover all-time threats at opposite areas of the court and is obviously a gigantic upgrade on the defensive end.

Me thinks you're overthinking things

[rk2023]

Curry and Giannis, as big a fan I am of Jokic and Kobe. In the case of the former pairing, you’re scaling Giannis down to a secondary offensive option to the point where he doesn’t have to control as much as a volume creator while getting a duo that has both all-time perimeter and paint gravity respectively. Synergistically between the two, that’s creating a lot of open looks / high quality shots for teammates.

[edgymnerch]

Curry/Giannis easily

[Laimbeer]

That’s a good one. There’s not a clear right answer to me. If I had to choose, I’d probably go with Curry/Giannis though. My reasoning is basically that both involve a top-tier all-time great offensive player (Curry and Jokic) alongside another volume scorer that was a great defender, but if I have to choose between having a great big-man defender or a great wing defender then I’d choose the big man.

Is Giannis a big man defender and defensive anchor or a very long perimeter defender? I think it's the second.

[LesGrossman]

Too lazy to read all the takes. Key and unique ability of Jokic is the awareness of all other players on the floor, and maximizing their impact by creating wide open shots for every other player on his team. If you put him in a 2v2 game (whatever that would be, its not basketball), you would take away his greatest strength. Its like "who would win in a game where you can only shoot 3's, peak Shaq+Giannis or Steph+Kobe"?

So yes, here the answer would probably be Curry/Giannis. In a regular 5 by 5 setup where the other 3 players are of comparable strength, its easily Joker + Kobe.

[uberhikari]

I have not been impressed by Giannis's PS offense outside of 2021. The exact same problems that plagued him before he won FMVP in 2021 have come back to bite him in both 2022 and 2023. Furthermore, Curry has also had his fair share of post-season struggles in addition to his durability problems. So, Kobe/Jokic for me.

Those issues didn't stop the team from elevating in 19, 21 and 22 overall and the Bucks very nearly went 3-0 up on a 60+win team + an all-time two-way wing as was.

Curry+Giannis forces defenses to cover all-time threats at opposite areas of the court and is obviously a gigantic upgrade on the defensive end.

Me thinks you're overthinking things

I agree with you in theory. But I like to have empirical evidence for my theories. Basketball isn't played on paper. I have no concerns about Giannis's offense in the RS but I don't trust his offense in the PS.

Giannis in the last 4 games vs TOR in 2019: 21-13-6 on 48% TSw/ fantastic defense.

In 2020 he was injured vs MIA so it's difficult to evaluate his offensive impact. But in game 2, he shot 7/21 from the field.

In 2022 it's, again, difficult to evaluate his offensive impact because of Khris Middleton's injury. But he was all over the place and overall he wasn't very impressive on offense.

And we all saw the disaster in games 4 and 5 in the 2023 PS.

What is it about Giannis's PS offense that makes you think he's reliably impactful?

As a general rule, I don't give players credit for things they haven't proven even if, in theory, they could be better than what they've shown.

[eminence]

I also question Gianis's offensive impact in the real world.

But in this hypothetical it's hard to imagine him screwing up the wide open at the FT line 4 on 3s that Curry constantly generates for Draymond in the PnR.

[OhayoKD]

Those issues didn't stop the team from elevating in 19, 21 and 22 overall and the Bucks very nearly went 3-0 up on a 60+win team + an all-time two-way wing as was.

Curry+Giannis forces defenses to cover all-time threats at opposite areas of the court and is obviously a gigantic upgrade on the defensive end.

Me thinks you're overthinking things

I agree with you in theory. But I like to have empirical evidence for my theories. Basketball isn't played on paper. I have no concerns about Giannis's offense in the RS but I don't trust his offense in the PS.
[/quote}

I am not talking theory here. The bucks defensive playoff improvement was larger than their offensive decline in the years cited, hence "overall". Mind you those playoff ratings were going off Toronto's regular season where Kawhi sand-bagged and Gasol wasn't there the full-year. The bucks being offensive fallers is accurate, them being "fallers" overall isn't nearly as clear.

Giannis in the last 4 games vs TOR in 2019: 21-13-6 on 48% TSw/ fantastic defense.

Sure. But that fantastic defense saw the Raptors shoot 8-points worse from the field when he was on the floor, and saw Kawhi's numbers skyrocket when Giannis was off. Ultimately a team that was average without Giannis took the a 60-win team + an all-time wing to a near-draw. Variance seem to swung against them(even in the two wins, the raptors shot better from open threes just like the Celtics), and that was with a big big coaching mismatch.

I am not saying his offense was great, I'm saying his defense made up for it.

In 2020 he was injured vs MIA so it's difficult to evaluate his offensive impact. But in game 2, he shot 7/21 from the field.

Yeah, his scoring plummeted, though I think his playmaking there was better than it was in 2019. The real problem for the Bucks was their collapsed. In the years they've contended their defense has elevated. How much of that is Giannis being injured, Bam as a bad individual matchup, and the Bucks lettinng miami shoot is an open question. The Bucks have shown the capacity to play to take away threes(boston in 2019 is a premier example), they just didn't.

In 2022 it's, again, difficult to evaluate his offensive impact because of Khris Middleton's injury. But he was all over the place and overall he wasn't very impressive on offense.

Well he did a much better job in 21/22 at getting to the rim even when facing "the wall". And if nothing else he did better there than he did in 2019. Still, again, the point was that overall the Bucks did well in the playoffs because their defense improved more than their offense fell. Giannis can be stopped offensively. But he's also far better defensively than the other 3 players here. Taking that Celtics team to 7 without middleton is still impressive regardless of if his offense specifically faltered.

And we all saw the disaster in games 4 and 5 in the 2023 PS.

[/quote][/quote]
Yeah, but if Giannis is defending like a healthy Giannis can and has defended, there's a good chance the Bucks win both games anyway. I do not think Kobe or Jokic's team-results are clearly better than Giannis's relative to the support they've had. And emperically Giannis's playoff "impact" still looks all-timey. Why are you confident the offense clearly outweighs the defense.

[Jaivl]

Ultimately a team that was average without Giannis took the a 60-win team + an all-time wing to a near-draw.

That surely is a funny way of characterizing a 58 win team.

A pretty consistent 58 win team at that (41-19 with Kawhi healthy on the RS / 13-6 with Kawhi and Gasol, narrowly beat a 51 win team, squeaked by a 60 win team).

[OhayoKD]

Ultimately a team that was average without Giannis took the a 60-win team + an all-time wing to a near-draw.

That surely is a funny way of characterizing a 58 win team.

A pretty consistent 58 win team at that (41-19 with Kawhi healthy on the RS / 13-6 with Kawhi and Gasol, .

The Raptors were a 58 +7 srs team without Nurse, Gasol, and Kawhi in 2018 and a 57-win +6 srs team without Kawhi in 2020, and a 17-4(+11.4 net, srs would be lower) without Kawhi in 2019. If by "funny" you meant accurate, you would be correct. If you want to argue Kawhi, Nurse, and Gasol had no impact, by all means.

narrowly beat a 51 win team

The Sixers also made a big mid-season move(and became a top 5 defense in the aftermath). Post-trade they posted the best 5 and 4 man lineup ratings in the league. Very obviously contention worthy.

squeaked by a 60 win team

A 60-win, +8 srs regular season team that was playing like a juggernaut up until they ran into Toronto. But for impact-on-winning the relevant bit here is that team was 40ish-wins without Giannis. With Giannis they were 60-win team that then got better in the playoffs. Even in a purely descriptive sense, Giannis's playoff impact looks quite good.