Shams: Bulls extend Vuc (3/60)

[PJSteven22]

That may be true but it also creates a clunky fit with too much iso and ball dominance.

The only that can work is if he was a better passer. It’ll still be a mediocre offense.

If you have guys aggressively cutting to the basket, moving without the ball, guys who can toss the ball to Vuc, allow him to work his position in the paint and then kick it back outside to a open shooter or give LaVine or the PG a better avenue to set up the play, it's not.

The offense should stress the defense and force errors from them. Our offense does not do that. It's not crisp, it's just clunky and iso.

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

[Ccwatercraft]

I cant see him agreeing to the extension if Billy didnt tell him he was gonna use him differently. Theres a follow up tweet that mentions apparently billy noted how guards missed opportunities to get him the ball on mismatches.

Let me start by saying that I’m in favor of re-signing him. I think it was financially and team building-wise the right decision.

With that being said, your comment about mismatches is something I wanted to further comment on. Vuc infuriates me for the amount of times he throws the ball out of the post when he’s got HUGE mismatches on. So much so that I think if he just made the right basketball play in those situations alone, his numbers might be so much better there wouldn’t be a contrary argument to be made for signing him at the rate they did. I lay a lot of the blame at the feet of Billy for that.

It’s been going on for far too long for Billy not to bear the responsibility for the proper basketball play not being made on such an obvious and grand scale. It seems obvious that he would want to have him go at the smaller guy at least MOST of the time and that clearly doesn’t happen. I think if he would play smart ball and not allow the other team to send less size at him not only would his numbers be better but I think making teams play him honest would improve the team as a whole.

I agree. There are times that Vuc threw the ball back out just to go to the perimeter or FT line area and he needs to be better. Throw it out to repost and get better positioning. But for a while I've been saying I dont think billy is a talented offensive coach. Other posters have said he lets Zach or Demar iso while everyone stands around. Some of that is on the players for not moving into space and adjusting on the fly, however....why dont we have a ****** offense for them to run that uses motion? Use people as screeners, play off the low post, high post, etc. I saw too much dribbling with bystanders vs actual motion. I'll be the first to admit I'm not super knowledgeable on playbooks, plays, or formations but I can still recognize people standing around instead of moving into better position. If someone is going iso, move into a space where you can catch and shoot it if he needs a bailout. Cut to/away from the basket if you see your man sleeping. Fake out a move into open space then immediately cut back to the paint. Too many times I questioned what the hell billy was doing in practice or the film room and whether or not the players werent running his offense or if thats what it just looks like. Because if so, why arent you reprimanding them to run the offense or why is your offense built around iso with people standing around watching?

I couldn't agree more. You can blame the occasional lapse on the players, but after a couple full seasons it clear that it's by design.

[mc140]

The VUC trade is what has crippled this team. That and giving up on Lauri.

[MrFortune3]

The only that can work is if he was a better passer. It’ll still be a mediocre offense.

If you have guys aggressively cutting to the basket, moving without the ball, guys who can toss the ball to Vuc, allow him to work his position in the paint and then kick it back outside to a open shooter or give LaVine or the PG a better avenue to set up the play, it's not.

The offense should stress the defense and force errors from them. Our offense does not do that. It's not crisp, it's just clunky and iso.

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

It's not simply an issue of Vuc needing to be a better "passer" though. It's ball movement. Give him a touch in the post, let him back down his defender and if it doesn't work then kick it out, still have Vuc try to establish in the post for a play and if he can't then keep moving the ball to expose the defense at some point.

Vuc is good enough of a passer to do that. He doesn't have to average 6 apg, touch the ball, try to post and set up, kick out and spread the ball to put the defense in a bad position. In - out game.

[chitownsports4ever]

If you have guys aggressively cutting to the basket, moving without the ball, guys who can toss the ball to Vuc, allow him to work his position in the paint and then kick it back outside to a open shooter or give LaVine or the PG a better avenue to set up the play, it's not.

The offense should stress the defense and force errors from them. Our offense does not do that. It's not crisp, it's just clunky and iso.

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

It's not simply an issue of Vuc needing to be a better "passer" though. It's ball movement. Give him a touch in the post, let him back down his defender and if it doesn't work then kick it out, still have Vuc try to establish in the post for a play and if he can't then keep moving the ball to expose the defense at some point.

Vuc is good enough of a passer to do that. He doesn't have to average 6 apg, touch the ball, try to post and set up, kick out and spread the ball to put the defense in a bad position. In - out game.

Exactly I think people are really confused about when Stacey says oh its a simple game and think it means let Vooch try and score 30 from the post every night but in reality its simply toss the ball inside and MOVE and take the wide-open open threes and backdoor cuts that it will create . There will always be a time and place for dribble moves and isolation but this way is one of the simplest ways in basketball to make sure everyone stays involved and engaged

Watch on YouTube

[MrFortune3]

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

It's not simply an issue of Vuc needing to be a better "passer" though. It's ball movement. Give him a touch in the post, let him back down his defender and if it doesn't work then kick it out, still have Vuc try to establish in the post for a play and if he can't then keep moving the ball to expose the defense at some point.

Vuc is good enough of a passer to do that. He doesn't have to average 6 apg, touch the ball, try to post and set up, kick out and spread the ball to put the defense in a bad position. In - out game.

Exactly I think people are really confused about when Stacey says oh its a simple game and think it means let Vooch try and score 30 from the post every night but in reality its simply toss the ball inside and MOVE and take the wide-open open threes and backdoor cuts that it will create . There will always be a time and place for dribble moves and isolation but this way is one of the simplest ways in basketball to make sure everyone stays involved and engaged

Watch on YouTube

Exactly! I don't expect Vuc to be Jokic. Give him the ball, let him work for position, it should free up something against the defense. If it's not a good look, pass it out and keep the ball moving. Hard cuts, moving without the ball, etc will put even more pressure on the defense and open up a easier scoring opportunity.

[Stratmaster]

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

It's not simply an issue of Vuc needing to be a better "passer" though. It's ball movement. Give him a touch in the post, let him back down his defender and if it doesn't work then kick it out, still have Vuc try to establish in the post for a play and if he can't then keep moving the ball to expose the defense at some point.

Vuc is good enough of a passer to do that. He doesn't have to average 6 apg, touch the ball, try to post and set up, kick out and spread the ball to put the defense in a bad position. In - out game.

Exactly I think people are really confused about when Stacey says oh its a simple game and think it means let Vooch try and score 30 from the post every night but in reality its simply toss the ball inside and MOVE and take the wide-open open threes and backdoor cuts that it will create . There will always be a time and place for dribble moves and isolation but this way is one of the simplest ways in basketball to make sure everyone stays involved and engaged

Watch on YouTube

No one is confused. He says free cheese 10 times a game and that doesn't mean passing back inside out.

In fairness he also is a proponent of playing through the center.

Basically, he sees the Center post as the center of every offense. But it's 2023

[Jimako10]

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

It's not simply an issue of Vuc needing to be a better "passer" though. It's ball movement. Give him a touch in the post, let him back down his defender and if it doesn't work then kick it out, still have Vuc try to establish in the post for a play and if he can't then keep moving the ball to expose the defense at some point.

Vuc is good enough of a passer to do that. He doesn't have to average 6 apg, touch the ball, try to post and set up, kick out and spread the ball to put the defense in a bad position. In - out game.

Exactly I think people are really confused about when Stacey says oh its a simple game and think it means let Vooch try and score 30 from the post every night but in reality its simply toss the ball inside and MOVE and take the wide-open open threes and backdoor cuts that it will create . There will always be a time and place for dribble moves and isolation but this way is one of the simplest ways in basketball to make sure everyone stays involved and engaged

Watch on YouTube

I watched this whole video and the majority of the plays, there's a double team heading to Vuc. The other plays are finding off ball cutters and shooters off screens.

Dare I say that teams have figured out that letting people post and not bringing a double is the best defensive strategy (unless your name is Jokic/Embiid)?

I only say this because Vuc's efficiency when posting up is not great, and if I were the opposing team, I'd let him post all day long and NOT bring a double.

I will agree though that BD's offense doesn't do enough off ball stuff.

[MrFortune3]

I watched this whole video and the majority of the plays, there's a double team heading to Vuc. The other plays are finding off ball cutters and shooters off screens.

Dare I say that teams have figured out that letting people post and not bringing a double is the best defensive strategy (unless your name is Jokic/Embiid)?

I only say this because Vuc's efficiency when posting up is not great, and if I were the opposing team, I'd let him post all day long and NOT bring a double.

I will agree though that BD's offense doesn't do enough off ball stuff.

The NBA is moving more towards cutting off certain things and living with the results. If you know a team is not good enough to beat you shooting the 3 then you stay on your man 1 on 1, help as needed and if they get a wide open look you live with the result. If they are highly adept at hitting 3's then you stick to them and potentially double one of the shooters and leave the post vunerable but you live with the result.

It's like when Denver let Miami have open looks and kill them from 3 during that one game. They resolved to force Miami to shoot contested 3's after that and live with the result because they'd rather have tough shots made than blown coverage allowing wide open shots.

[Jstock12]

20M/year might seem like a lot, but the salary cap is constantly growing, so that 20M in few years will be the equivalent of 14-15M in todays salary

[MikeDC]

Dare I say that teams have figured out that letting people post and not bringing a double is the best defensive strategy (unless your name is Jokic/Embiid)?

I only say this because Vuc's efficiency when posting up is not great, and if I were the opposing team, I'd let him post all day long and NOT bring a double.

Yup. I posted some of this in a more general context, but...

Vuc is the guy who's really root of all the bulls ills. They gave up so much for him, and he's really toolsy so they feel like they have to make use of those tools. Like "he can shoot!". And that uncommon tool takes precedence over the "he can't defend for ****!"

So what happens is offensively, Vuc floats out to the perimeter and becomes a spot up shooter because they've got so many non-shooting "defense first" guards. Which we have because Vuc is a terrible defensive player and they have to protect him by having guys like Ball and Caruso and Ayo to blunt the fact that he gets killed whenever he gets put into PnR defense.

It's this negative circular logic feedback loop... we need Vuc to shoot to cover for guards who can't shoot who we need to cover for Vuc because he can't defend.

At the end of the day Vuc isn't a better shooter than most guards, and taking him out to the perimeter means he can't rebound. And guys like Caruso, well, they're good rebounders for guards, but they're not better rebounders than any 7 footer. So we get killed on the boards, and we get locked into a lot of inefficient post ups and Vuc jumpers.

It's ironic that he was lobbying for more touches, because we'd be better off further reducing them, or bringing him in closer to the basket and having him eat up boards on offense. He doesn't particularly like to get physical though, and never has done that very well.

The Vuc Post Up, no matter what Stacy King thinks, is not a good use of a possession. Vuc's 1.05 PPP puts him in the 69th percentile for post ups... good right? No, because a Zach (1.09) or DeMar (1.15) iso or Zach (1.22) or Coby (1.18) spot up is a much more efficient possession.

In fact, a Vuc spot up (1.05) is just as good as a Vuc post up. Sure, you want to post him every once in a while for a change of pace, but it's just not all that great. In a lot of ways, Vuc is really our lowest common denominator on offense. He sucks up a lot of possessions and uses them inefficiently.

We'd be a lot better off if we told him to STFU and roll hard to the basket instead of posting him up. When they have him roll, (which to their credit they actually do about as much as they can do) is actually pretty effective (less effective than when most other centers do it, but still a reasonably efficient play, and a better play than posting him up).

Last Year Vuc's main play types were:

Roll: 4.8 possessions, 1.09 PPP
Post Up: 3.8, 1.05
Spot Up: 2.9, 1.05
Cuts: 1.5 1.39
Transition: 1.3 1.12

I guess I'd argue that the Bulls should try to, as much as possible, just never plan for a Vuc spot up or Post up. That's almost 7 possessions a game that kind of suck. Maybe you still have to do it occasionally to keep the defender honest, but fine, get back 5 possessions a game a use them better. Because almost everything else is better. When they do dump it to him at the top of the key, the first and second option ought to be a DHO back to Zach/Coby/Carter for a 3.

[PJSteven22]

If you have guys aggressively cutting to the basket, moving without the ball, guys who can toss the ball to Vuc, allow him to work his position in the paint and then kick it back outside to a open shooter or give LaVine or the PG a better avenue to set up the play, it's not.

The offense should stress the defense and force errors from them. Our offense does not do that. It's not crisp, it's just clunky and iso.

He’s not a good enough passer to execute that type of offense. That’s the reason why they don’t run the ball through Vuc. He’s not a Sabonis level passer. Vuc and Demar like the same spots and Demar is simply a better playmaker and offensive option. Some of that is on Billy not having DeMar be more of a facilitator. They’re 18th in iso possessions per game.

It's not simply an issue of Vuc needing to be a better "passer" though. It's ball movement. Give him a touch in the post, let him back down his defender and if it doesn't work then kick it out, still have Vuc try to establish in the post for a play and if he can't then keep moving the ball to expose the defense at some point.

Vuc is good enough of a passer to do that. He doesn't have to average 6 apg, touch the ball, try to post and set up, kick out and spread the ball to put the defense in a bad position. In - out game.

He would have to the way you’re describing it. Or he would have to be a better post threat. He’s the least efficient out of the three of them. Hence why he gets the least amount of touches.

[yifsuibfe1]

Literally every article I have read about the Vooch signing so far has been about the same….the bulls are the most depressing franchise in basketball

[Bandit King]

A durable double double machine

[bad knees]

What does this video tell us? Wrong answers only.

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[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Phenomenal deal IMO. Him and Coby both. Even for future trading chips.

Vuc is not used properly at all. Idk if that changes under Billy