Early discussion on the 2023 offseason

[Tha King]

Herro can't defend but he's not the net negative that some of the non-defending guards he gets compared to are. His efficiency has been improving each of the past three years and he gives you playmaking. That contract will also look much better the next few years with a rising cap if he simply maintains where he's currently at let alone continues to improve.

If you can get him for some combination of non-core players or even Simmons w/o giving up any of the important picks that would be a good move imo

The main thing that gives me pause with Herro, even if you’re getting him for literally nothing more than Simmons, is what happens if a month later a guy like Mitchell is really on the block and they want to move fast to deal him? Now you’ve lost a lot of salary matching ability.

the only way herro makes sense is if they absolutely loathe simmons and dont want him anywhere near the team and this is the only way to get rid of him. literally the only other way they could match him other than simmons is expirings who prevent flexibility (like you said).

the problem with the simmons rationale is that if portland is the only way to get rid of him, why not just do a dame trade?

i know everyone feels burned by the last big 3 but dame is such a different personality. he is the same age as KD was when he decided to come here and not coming off an achilles. we all understood there was risk in kds age/recovery. and that kyrie had his red flags and injury issues. dame isn't the talent kd is/was but look around and there aren't more than a handful of guards we'd rather have then him if we could literally pick any of them. lillard was 3rd in the nba in ppg last year at 32 on 46/37/91 with NOTHING around him.

Dame, Bridges, a bunch of 3&D's including 1 elite shooter and 1 elite defender is a big step in the right direction and they have a ton of assets to keep adding if they keep spending. which they'd have no reason not to do after getting dame.

KD (and Kyrie) joined Brooklyn via cap space and didn't require the magnitude of what it would take to get Lillard.

The accolades for Lillard are great but he's also played a total of 87 games the last two seasons, why should that be expected to improve going forward? He's also at a point where a sharp decline can happen at any point, as we saw with Harden. At least with Harden you could rationalize the move because adding him made Brooklyn an absolute contender, with Lillard you still need convoluted ways of finding other pieces to seriously think about contention.

If you add Lillard and the trade goes the other way (i.e. he declines, barely plays like KD, etc.) this team is done for the foreseeable future with no ways of improving.

[TheNetsFan]

very good hollinger article on the diminishing value of cap space because of the supermax rules in the last CBA. given the super max extensions we've already seen in the last 48 hours in sac, ind, mem, it seems this trend is going to continue.

https://theathletic.com/4660230/2023/07/02/nba-free-agency-2023-salary-cap-space/

The initial instinct is to blame the Big Bad New CBA for this, but the actual culprit is the last CBA. The loosened restrictions on contract extensions and, especially, the arrival of the supermax extension, have massively reduced the pool of star talent that ever hits free agency in the first place. That summer of 2019 — which also featured Paul George, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook getting traded — was sort of a last gasp for the old-world model of free agency.

With that in mind, take a look at what our friends with cap space have done this summer. I get that we’re not quite done yet, and in particular a couple of restricted free agents remain on the market and could receive offer sheets. Nonetheless, there isn’t a player in that group who could hold a candle to our class of 2019, so I think the point will hold regardless.

• Houston was the only team that pursued the “old model,” launching into a feeding frenzy that saw the Rockets sign VanVleet, Dillon Brooks and Jeff Green while trading three former first-round picks. Everyone else went a different direction.

• Detroit, with near-max room and clear marching orders to improve, turned its nearly $30 million in cap room into Harris and Monte Morris while netting one second-round pick.

• Oklahoma City had even more room than Detroit; the Thunder used it to A) pay $33 million to move up two spots in the draft by taking on Davis Bertans, B) take on a second-round pick for Victor Oladipo, and C) sign Vasa Micic to a contract that would fit in the room exception if they ever actually used the rest of their cap space.

• Indiana turned its cap room into a short-term overpay on Bruce Brown — at least this one had some on-court oomph — and a trade for Obi Toppin. We’ll talk more about the Brown deal in a minute.

• Orlando would have had to waive players such as Gary Harris or Markelle Fultz to have max room and opted not to; even so, the Magic’s only real move was filling the space with Joe Ingles for a year.

• Sacramento broke new ground by using cap space to overpay its own player rather than somebody else’s, with a $217 million renegotiate-and-extend for Domantas Sabonis that I would describe as, um, player-friendly.

• San Antonio volunteered itself as a dumping ground for Cedi Osman and maintains significant cap room to absorb whatever flotsam the inevitable trades of James Harden and Damian Lillard produce.

• Utah used the bulk of its room to take on somebody else’s problem contract, turning Rudy Gay into John Collins. The Jazz still have enough room left to renegotiate-and-extend Jordan Clarkson or take on another bad contract.

• Charlotte and Washington could have entered the fray but never really had any stomach for jumping in. The Wizards somewhat oddly opted to (over)pay Kyle Kuzma; the Hornets’ situation is still unclear pending restricted free agents P.J. Washington and Miles Bridges, but they haven’t been a player in unrestricted free agency thus far.

• Even the Lakers — the Lakers, people, the free-agent destination par excellence for decades now – took one look at the options and decided “Nah, we’re good.”

So, in the aggregate, $30 million or so in cap room gets you … a couple of seconds? That’s it???

It seems things really have changed. You’re just not getting an elite player for free anymore; teams have become too savvy and extending players has become too easy. On the flip side, nobody is foolish enough to just spend the money on randoms because they have the money; Deng-Mozgov summers are likely a thing of the past.

here's the kicker:

One thing is for sure: Cap space isn’t cool anymore. The dream of an All-Star free-agent signing is impossible if none of them ever become free agents in the first place. As a result, teams will need to think a lot more strategically about what max-type cap room even means anymore, and what options are truly viable for franchises in that position. Many of them got 50 cents on their cap room dollar this year, and with so few genuine stars hitting free agency, I’m not sure the ROI is going to improve much in coming seasons.

i think the ideal strategy for a team that has enough appeal to draw stars is just use cap space smartly and be in on stars if the fit/trade cost is reasonable. you can't expect that free agency is going to go your way. build a competitive team with good culture like Miami (or Boston), be in the playoffs year in and year out, and strike when the iron gets hot when all-nba level guys become available if the price is reasonable. while you're waiting for the stars draft, develop, make smart moves that build value on the roster.

it's sort of a hybrid of what marks did when he first got to brooklyn with no assets combined with superstars, except not as super star heavy as they became with the big 3. and much more judicious in terms of which super star personalities to go all in with.

Hollinger is premature in that assessment. This was a very weak FA class. Next year's is a little better, but not much. '25 can be a marquis FA class. I would wait until then to draw conclusions. Teams seemingly rented cap space cheaply for short deals. Poole was the only real long term dump.

[Netaman]

The main thing that gives me pause with Herro, even if you’re getting him for literally nothing more than Simmons, is what happens if a month later a guy like Mitchell is really on the block and they want to move fast to deal him? Now you’ve lost a lot of salary matching ability.

the only way herro makes sense is if they absolutely loathe simmons and dont want him anywhere near the team and this is the only way to get rid of him. literally the only other way they could match him other than simmons is expirings who prevent flexibility (like you said).

the problem with the simmons rationale is that if portland is the only way to get rid of him, why not just do a dame trade?

i know everyone feels burned by the last big 3 but dame is such a different personality. he is the same age as KD was when he decided to come here and not coming off an achilles. we all understood there was risk in kds age/recovery. and that kyrie had his red flags and injury issues. dame isn't the talent kd is/was but look around and there aren't more than a handful of guards we'd rather have then him if we could literally pick any of them. lillard was 3rd in the nba in ppg last year at 32 on 46/37/91 with NOTHING around him.

Dame, Bridges, a bunch of 3&D's including 1 elite shooter and 1 elite defender is a big step in the right direction and they have a ton of assets to keep adding if they keep spending. which they'd have no reason not to do after getting dame.

KD (and Kyrie) joined Brooklyn via cap space and didn't require the magnitude of what it would take to get Lillard.

The accolades for Lillard are great but he's also played a total of 87 games the last two seasons, why should that be expected to improve going forward? He's also at a point where a sharp decline can happen at any point, as we saw with Harden. At least with Harden you could rationalize the move because adding him made Brooklyn an absolute contender, with Lillard you still need convoluted ways of finding other pieces to seriously think about contention.

If you add Lillard and the trade goes the other way (i.e. he declines, barely plays like KD, etc.) this team is done for the foreseeable future with no ways of improving.

harden isnt what he used to be but he's still a good player. he's a year older than dame and he just led the league in assists while improving most of his %'s. and he's not a guy that keeps himself in good shape.

sorry but i dont get this fear that dame is going to fall apart like deron williams. how many other all nba point guards in the last couple decades have done that?

and for the millionth time the bold is the biggest strawman there is. they have 10 picks they can trade, plus 2 rookies not yet signed, plus cam thomas, plus some veterans they can likely reroute as currency in the deal (a 3rd team could give up a pick for dinwiddie, dfs, or oneale). with 2 big trade exceptions and more picks to deal they will have ways to continue improving - including a 40m expiring contract lined up for next offseason. the entire selling point here is that miami doesn't have the assets to put together a big enough offer that the nets can beat it WHILE MAINTAINING enough assets to continue adding. with Dame they will have 4 starters locked in and the assets to upgrade the 5th starter if one is available while rounding out a solid bench.

and if simmons is still here they have a $37m placeholder contending to be the 5th starter who has literally made all-nba teams. in the unlikely event he gets back to what he was they may not need another superstar trade. if he doesn't he's a 40m expiring next offseason. rehabbing his value as much as possible is undoubtedly one of the best things the nets could do over the next 12 months because his deal is big enough to match KAT, Giannis, pg3, Kawhi, Doncic, Zion, or whoever else may shake loose next.

[Keith Van Horn]

Agreed, KVH.

Swapping out Simmons for Herro sounds like a get-out-of-jail free card, but the price is the sticking point. IMO, Tyler is not that much more valuable than Ben. He hasn't proven as much, and his long-term injury outlook is almost as concerning. Finally, I just feel Herro is going to be another in the long list of guys who look significantly worse outside of the Heat system.

Bobby Marks was projecting us as the 3rd team involved in Dame to Miami, since Portland doesn't want Herro. But we'd be giving Simmons and 4 1sts in his scenario. First of all, why are WE the teams helping out rival get the superstar player that wants to come to us? Second, if we're trading all of the stuff that Portland wants and none of the stuff they don't, then we're taking Dame, not Tyler.

oh man I didn't see that Marks comment that he'd be having us give 4 picks in addition to Simmons. No way... not even if we were the ones getting Dame. agreed!

I'd do Simmons and a single pick for Herro. And it'd have to be whichever one we value the least. If not, go find another trade partner.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

Heat fan here.

Just want to say a couple things on Herro and stuff.


The media is full of Boston/Philly/NY etc type people who absolutely hate the Miami Heat and everything Miami, because of rivalries. They back their home town teams, Sixers, Celtics, whatever.

So, naturally, whenever Miami is involved in a trade talk like this, all of our assets magically suck. All of our players are trash outside of Bam.

Nevermind the fact that, in the past 4 seasons, the Heat have :

- made 2 Finals trips (2020, 2023)
- made another ECF trip (2022)
- and were a Jimmy Butler missed buzzer beater in game 7 to earn a 3rd Finals trip (2022)

But our assets are trash. Right.


Here the truth about Herro.

Herro is more than a "just an elite 3pt shooter".

- When Herro had to earn his stripes under Coach Spo and Heat culture, he came off the bench and won 6th man of the year (2022)
- He can handle the ball and run an offense.
- He can iso and create his own shot (something we sorely needed vs the Nuggets, but he was injured)
- He just turned 23 yrs old this January. He is still improving.
- He is a legit 3 level scorer.
- Riley LOVES this kid and thinks he can be as good or better than Devin Booker.


People talk down our assets. You'll regularly catch Knicks fans, etc doing it too. They clearly have their agenda. It's no different with media talking heads. For example, people hate on Duncan Robinson, but the man single handedly caught fire in Game 2 NBA Finals and helped us steal HCA from Denver. Something -no other team was able to do in the entire playoffs-.

Robinson came into the game in the 4th qrtr, Heat down double digits, and Robinson scored 10 straight points to bring us back. Spo calls these type of players "ignitables" .... but they're trash. Okay. Trash keeps winning us games I guess. Here is the clip of game 2 Robinson doing this :

Watch on YouTube

They hate on his contract, but Max Strus just got paid 16m/yr . Let me tell you, as Heat fans, we consider Duncan better than Strus.

Anyway, about Tyler Herro, since you might be getting him in this Dame trade.

Here are Herro highlights from this year, right before he got that freak injury in the playoffs this year

Watch on YouTube

[Netaman]

if this is in fact the case it sets the nets up well as a compromise landing spot.

Read on Twitter

dfs likely goes to a 3rd team for picks to portland, royce or dinwiddie possibly as well, nets add in 3 or 4 FRPs (or Clowney).



Nets would be right at luxury tax after this deal, though i'd expect them to go into it to fill out the rest of the roster/bench. they have all the TPEs plus full MLE and would need to find some new 3&D wings.

Lillard - DSJ - Sumner
Simmons - Whitehead
Bridges - Wilson
Cam J. - Clowney
Claxton - Nurkic - Sharpe

[3pt_chucker]

Nets should only consider Herro if the Blazers are cool with taking Ben off their hands and only attaching 1 pick. Otherwise, no deal.

If Miami plays hardball and not offer everything this will just stall out into a long stalemate which does not benefit the Heat at all. So this will resolve over the next couple days.

If Miami truly believe Dame is the missing piece, then they will go all out eventually. If not, they just might say no thanks to Dame at the all of their assets price and that will open the door wide for other teams.

[Netaman]

Here the truth about Herro.

Herro is more than a "just an elite 3pt shooter".

- When Herro had to earn his stripes under Coach Spo and Heat culture, he came off the bench and won 6th man of the year (2022)
- He can handle the ball and run an offense.
- He can iso and create his own shot (something we sorely needed vs the Nuggets, but he was injured)
- He just turned 23 yrs old this January. He is still improving.
- He is a legit 3 level scorer.
- Riley LOVES this kid and thinks he can be as good or better than Devin Booker.

i don't think anyone has an issue buying Herro as "more than a 3pt shooter", the question is just how much more? At $30m per year that's a legitimate question. i'm sure you can understand why the Suns fans similarly see Ayton as more than his contract, or the Blazers/Simons, or the hawks before dealing Collins, or GS thinking they shouldn't have needed to deal a pick to move poole. but the market is the market for non-all stars making 30m per year. even if they've played well in the finals like poole also has.

I like Herro personally and in a vacuum would have no issue with the nets adding him, I just dont see an obvious fit matching contracts. I don't think Simmons is a fit for either Portland or Miami so the simplest way for the Nets to match would be Dinwiiddie's expiring, except he's also been a 6th man of the year type and they like enough that they've floated extending him (as they did in the past). Is there a $110m upgrade there? If we are talking spare parts like DFS, Royce oneale, and a mediocre FRP for Herro? sure. Nets are taking on $80m above those deals but i think herro's talent is worth that. And maybe DFS goes to another team for more salary relief for Portland and another FRP.

[Netaman]

ok think i'm warming up to something for Herro with DFS/Royce going out to 4th/5th teams to bring Portland salary relief and extra picks on top of the heat offer. Nets could also give portland Cam Thomas as an extra young player since he doesnt seem to have a future here.

Dinwiddie/Simmons
Herro/Whitehead
Bridges/Wilson
Cam J/Clowney
Claxton/Sharpe

Would want to find a stretch 5 to upgrade Sharpe but that's a nice group in the right age range and DFS' 3 years offset Herro to some extent even though i think moving DFS by himself is a lot easier.

nets would still be about 16m under the luxury tax so they could go out and make a full MLE offer on someone (grant williams?) and stay under it if they want. or use a big chunk of the KD tpe.

is herro good enough to be the guy who they can play through end of game? dont think so but he's certainly a better option than dinwiddie.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

Here the truth about Herro.

Herro is more than a "just an elite 3pt shooter".

- When Herro had to earn his stripes under Coach Spo and Heat culture, he came off the bench and won 6th man of the year (2022)
- He can handle the ball and run an offense.
- He can iso and create his own shot (something we sorely needed vs the Nuggets, but he was injured)
- He just turned 23 yrs old this January. He is still improving.
- He is a legit 3 level scorer.
- Riley LOVES this kid and thinks he can be as good or better than Devin Booker.

i don't think anyone has an issue buying Herro as "more than a 3pt shooter", the question is just how much more? At $30m per year that's a legitimate question. i'm sure you can understand why the Suns fans similarly see Ayton as more than his contract, or the Blazers/Simons, or the hawks before dealing Collins, or GS thinking they shouldn't have needed to deal a pick to move poole. but the market is the market for non-all stars making 30m per year. even if they've played well in the finals like poole also has.

I like Herro personally and in a vacuum would have no issue with the nets adding him, I just dont see an obvious fit matching contracts. I don't think Simmons is a fit for either Portland or Miami so the simplest way for the Nets to match would be Dinwiiddie's expiring, except he's also been a 6th man of the year type and they like enough that they've floated extending him (as they did in the past). Is there a $110m upgrade there? If we are talking spare parts like DFS, Royce oneale, and a mediocre FRP for Herro? sure. Nets are taking on $80m above those deals but i think herro's talent is worth that. And maybe DFS goes to another team for more salary relief for Portland and another FRP.

Herro is set to earn $27m in 2023-24. The same amount Cameron Johnson is set to make.

The new CBA and the contracts being given out, I don't think herro's contract is strange. Heck, one of our guys in Max Strus got poached by Cleveland, and he's making 16m/yr, and he's nowhere near as versatile as Herro or Cam Johnson.

Anyway, I will leave you guys in peace, hope you guys do well for yourselves. Just annoyed at how the media and fans always hate on everything Miami. It's unfair and really untrue. Riley/Spo loves this kid, and our playoff success shows we're doing something right!

[Netaman]

Here the truth about Herro.

Herro is more than a "just an elite 3pt shooter".

- When Herro had to earn his stripes under Coach Spo and Heat culture, he came off the bench and won 6th man of the year (2022)
- He can handle the ball and run an offense.
- He can iso and create his own shot (something we sorely needed vs the Nuggets, but he was injured)
- He just turned 23 yrs old this January. He is still improving.
- He is a legit 3 level scorer.
- Riley LOVES this kid and thinks he can be as good or better than Devin Booker.

i don't think anyone has an issue buying Herro as "more than a 3pt shooter", the question is just how much more? At $30m per year that's a legitimate question. i'm sure you can understand why the Suns fans similarly see Ayton as more than his contract, or the Blazers/Simons, or the hawks before dealing Collins, or GS thinking they shouldn't have needed to deal a pick to move poole. but the market is the market for non-all stars making 30m per year. even if they've played well in the finals like poole also has.

I like Herro personally and in a vacuum would have no issue with the nets adding him, I just dont see an obvious fit matching contracts. I don't think Simmons is a fit for either Portland or Miami so the simplest way for the Nets to match would be Dinwiiddie's expiring, except he's also been a 6th man of the year type and they like enough that they've floated extending him (as they did in the past). Is there a $110m upgrade there? If we are talking spare parts like DFS, Royce oneale, and a mediocre FRP for Herro? sure. Nets are taking on $80m above those deals but i think herro's talent is worth that. And maybe DFS goes to another team for more salary relief for Portland and another FRP.

Herro is set to earn $27m in 2023-24. The same amount Cameron Johnson is set to make.

The new CBA and the contracts being given out, I don't think herro's contract is strange. Heck, one of our guys in Max Strus got poached by Cleveland, and he's making 16m/yr, and he's nowhere near as versatile as Herro or Cam Johnson.

Anyway, I will leave you guys in peace, hope you guys do well for yourselves. Just annoyed at how the media and fans always hate on everything Miami. It's unfair and really untrue. Riley/Spo loves this kid, and our playoff success shows we're doing something right!

that's all fair - but if you go back through some of our comments re Cam, most of us think he's probably an under water asset even if we like him as a player enough that we are happy he's back. if we tried to turn around and trade him tomorrow i wouldn't have high expectations on what's coming back. if you go by war, raptor, etc cam's got just as much of an argument to being worth his contract as herro with the obvious exception of herro being younger and having more upside.

similar to Cam I'd have interest in Herro and I'd be willing to give up stuff to get him - like i said it's just finding the pieces/value that fit in a switch. i think the framework i mentioned above with Royce/DFS going to other teams to send more assets/cap relief to portland is one id be on board with.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

Nets should only consider Herro if the Blazers are cool with taking Ben off their hands and only attaching 1 pick. Otherwise, no deal.

If Miami plays hardball and not offer everything this will just stall out into a long stalemate which does not benefit the Heat at all. So this will resolve over the next couple days.

If Miami truly believe Dame is the missing piece, then they will go all out eventually. If not, they just might say no thanks to Dame at the all of their assets price and that will open the door wide for other teams.

No offense about your player, but I don't think Ben Simmons would thrive under Heat culture. The hard work ethic, professionalism, and grind + hustle mentality is not for everyone. Maybe the Blazers would take him, but I don't see Riles taking on a Simmons project that could end up blowing up in our faces if he melts down or quits.

[vincecarter4pres]

Call me crazy, but I’d kick the tires on James Harden if I’m Sean.

[vincecarter4pres]

i don't think anyone has an issue buying Herro as "more than a 3pt shooter", the question is just how much more? At $30m per year that's a legitimate question. i'm sure you can understand why the Suns fans similarly see Ayton as more than his contract, or the Blazers/Simons, or the hawks before dealing Collins, or GS thinking they shouldn't have needed to deal a pick to move poole. but the market is the market for non-all stars making 30m per year. even if they've played well in the finals like poole also has.

I like Herro personally and in a vacuum would have no issue with the nets adding him, I just dont see an obvious fit matching contracts. I don't think Simmons is a fit for either Portland or Miami so the simplest way for the Nets to match would be Dinwiiddie's expiring, except he's also been a 6th man of the year type and they like enough that they've floated extending him (as they did in the past). Is there a $110m upgrade there? If we are talking spare parts like DFS, Royce oneale, and a mediocre FRP for Herro? sure. Nets are taking on $80m above those deals but i think herro's talent is worth that. And maybe DFS goes to another team for more salary relief for Portland and another FRP.

Herro is set to earn $27m in 2023-24. The same amount Cameron Johnson is set to make.

The new CBA and the contracts being given out, I don't think herro's contract is strange. Heck, one of our guys in Max Strus got poached by Cleveland, and he's making 16m/yr, and he's nowhere near as versatile as Herro or Cam Johnson.

Anyway, I will leave you guys in peace, hope you guys do well for yourselves. Just annoyed at how the media and fans always hate on everything Miami. It's unfair and really untrue. Riley/Spo loves this kid, and our playoff success shows we're doing something right!

that's all fair - but if you go back through some of our comments re Cam, most of us think he's probably an under water asset even if we like him as a player enough that we are happy he's back. if we tried to turn around and trade him tomorrow i wouldn't have high expectations on what's coming back. if you go by war, raptor, etc cam's got just as much of an argument to being worth his contract as herro with the obvious exception of herro being younger and having more upside.

similar to Cam I'd have interest in Herro and I'd be willing to give up stuff to get him - like i said it's just finding the pieces/value that fit in a switch. i think the framework i mentioned above with Royce/DFS going to other teams to send more assets/cap relief to portland is one id be on board with.

Wait, are we comparing Cam Thomas to Herro?

Grave disservice to Tyler right there. He’s a legit + level starter.

My main gripes with Herro are his defense and that you can’t play him at the 3 and Bridges seems at his best at the 2 as well.

But he’s a legit, solidly efficient 20/5/4 3rd option.

[Shark]

Call me crazy, but I’d kick the tires on James Harden if I’m Sean.

I've had that thought too, but what exactly does Harden want? Obviously he doesn't have a ton of say where he goes, at least as far as I know, but I don't want to trade for a guy that is going to nope out of here as soon as things look bad. I know we had a bunch of turmoil when he asked for a trade, but then why leave Philly? They've still got a good roster, they hired a championship winning HC in Nurse and you could argue that they still give him the best chance to win a championship, especially compared to us. I honestly rather not go through this whole thing with Harden again.

[Shark]

Herro is set to earn $27m in 2023-24. The same amount Cameron Johnson is set to make.

The new CBA and the contracts being given out, I don't think herro's contract is strange. Heck, one of our guys in Max Strus got poached by Cleveland, and he's making 16m/yr, and he's nowhere near as versatile as Herro or Cam Johnson.

Anyway, I will leave you guys in peace, hope you guys do well for yourselves. Just annoyed at how the media and fans always hate on everything Miami. It's unfair and really untrue. Riley/Spo loves this kid, and our playoff success shows we're doing something right!

that's all fair - but if you go back through some of our comments re Cam, most of us think he's probably an under water asset even if we like him as a player enough that we are happy he's back. if we tried to turn around and trade him tomorrow i wouldn't have high expectations on what's coming back. if you go by war, raptor, etc cam's got just as much of an argument to being worth his contract as herro with the obvious exception of herro being younger and having more upside.

similar to Cam I'd have interest in Herro and I'd be willing to give up stuff to get him - like i said it's just finding the pieces/value that fit in a switch. i think the framework i mentioned above with Royce/DFS going to other teams to send more assets/cap relief to portland is one id be on board with.

Wait, are we comparing Cam Thomas to Herro?

Grave disservice to Tyler right there. He’s a legit + level starter.

My main gripes with Herro are his defense and that you can’t play him at the 3 and Bridges seems at his best at the 2 as well.

But he’s a legit, solidly efficient 20/5/4 3rd option.

Nah, pretty sure Netaman is talking about Cam Johnson.

In so far as Herro and fit, I think it wouldn't be too crazy to try him at the 1. Like you said, he doesn't fit at the 3 and Bridges is already our 2. But depending on how things shake out Herro could end up at the 1 if Dinwiddie is moved. Heck even if Din isn't moved as part of a Herro deal, I'd still consider starting him over Dinwiddie. Or you could just keep him as a 6th man.

[Marvin Martian]

Herro is awful. We need a starting caliber PG not another 6th man combo guard, like Din. And I am not even convinced that he is better than Din. Anyone can average 20 ppg in today's NBA. It's even easier when you are not the primary ball handler on the team like Herro in MIA

[Netaman]

Herro is set to earn $27m in 2023-24. The same amount Cameron Johnson is set to make.

The new CBA and the contracts being given out, I don't think herro's contract is strange. Heck, one of our guys in Max Strus got poached by Cleveland, and he's making 16m/yr, and he's nowhere near as versatile as Herro or Cam Johnson.

Anyway, I will leave you guys in peace, hope you guys do well for yourselves. Just annoyed at how the media and fans always hate on everything Miami. It's unfair and really untrue. Riley/Spo loves this kid, and our playoff success shows we're doing something right!

that's all fair - but if you go back through some of our comments re Cam, most of us think he's probably an under water asset even if we like him as a player enough that we are happy he's back. if we tried to turn around and trade him tomorrow i wouldn't have high expectations on what's coming back. if you go by war, raptor, etc cam's got just as much of an argument to being worth his contract as herro with the obvious exception of herro being younger and having more upside.

similar to Cam I'd have interest in Herro and I'd be willing to give up stuff to get him - like i said it's just finding the pieces/value that fit in a switch. i think the framework i mentioned above with Royce/DFS going to other teams to send more assets/cap relief to portland is one id be on board with.

Wait, are we comparing Cam Thomas to Herro?

Grave disservice to Tyler right there. He’s a legit + level starter.

My main gripes with Herro are his defense and that you can’t play him at the 3 and Bridges seems at his best at the 2 as well.

But he’s a legit, solidly efficient 20/5/4 3rd option.

No was talking about cam Johnson - ghf was comparing herros contract to cj’s, my point was as much as we all like Cj we know with that contract he probably wouldnt bring back much via trade.


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[Netaman]

that's all fair - but if you go back through some of our comments re Cam, most of us think he's probably an under water asset even if we like him as a player enough that we are happy he's back. if we tried to turn around and trade him tomorrow i wouldn't have high expectations on what's coming back. if you go by war, raptor, etc cam's got just as much of an argument to being worth his contract as herro with the obvious exception of herro being younger and having more upside.

similar to Cam I'd have interest in Herro and I'd be willing to give up stuff to get him - like i said it's just finding the pieces/value that fit in a switch. i think the framework i mentioned above with Royce/DFS going to other teams to send more assets/cap relief to portland is one id be on board with.

Wait, are we comparing Cam Thomas to Herro?

Grave disservice to Tyler right there. He’s a legit + level starter.

My main gripes with Herro are his defense and that you can’t play him at the 3 and Bridges seems at his best at the 2 as well.

But he’s a legit, solidly efficient 20/5/4 3rd option.

Nah, pretty sure Netaman is talking about Cam Johnson.

In so far as Herro and fit, I think it wouldn't be too crazy to try him at the 1. Like you said, he doesn't fit at the 3 and Bridges is already our 2. But depending on how things shake out Herro could end up at the 1 if Dinwiddie is moved. Heck even if Din isn't moved as part of a Herro deal, I'd still consider starting him over Dinwiddie. Or you could just keep him as a 6th man.

I think bridges fits better and 3 and you put herro at the 2 with another ball handler on the point (either dinwiddie or Simmons).

I was and am a huge bridges fan but I watched him get cooked enough trying to guard Brunson that I think he’s probably better off defending against front court guys than back court guys.


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[MGrand15]

I would be really mad if we end up trading Ben + 2 firsts for Herro. Another guy sold when his value is at the absolute lowest and we give up assets where he can trade for a real star in the future. That would hurt.

Herro is fine. If we end up getting him and giving up Royce, DFS, and Cam Thomas, I'd be OK. 2 starters and a prospect for him doesn't feel great but we get younger and Herro can legitimately score. The org clearly doesn't believe in Thomas so we might as well move him. Kind of a waste to have him on the bench killing his value.

Outside of cutting costs, I really have no clue what the team is trying to do. I'm happy with our draft picks at least.