Better peak and prime- Moses or AD

migya · Post #1 » by **migya** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:22 pm

Who had a better peak and prime, Moses or AD? AD up until now ofcourse.

RCM88x · Post #2 » by **RCM88x** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:25 pm

Moses both pretty clearly I think, AD has never been the conversation for best player in the league, and maybe has 6 prime seasons.. '15-'20? Moses very much was in that conversation for probably 5 straight seasons '79-'83, and while I don't think his prime extended past '83 I can certainly see people arguing for longer. Regardless, relative to the league he was just better and that gives him a clear edge for me.

rk2023 · Post #3 » by **rk2023** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:25 pm

Davis has the better top years is what I would guess, but I don't find Moses' best campaigns up until 1983 to be too far off - and he probably would grade higher for me in a career sense due to better longevity/consistency. Davis is in my top 40 (maybe), whereas M. Malone is in my top 30.

migya · Post #4 » by **migya** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:27 pm

rk2023 wrote:Davis has the better top years is what I would guess, but I don't find Moses' best campaigns up until 1983 to be too far off - and he probably would grade higher for me in a career sense due to better longevity/consistency. Davis is in my top 40 (maybe), whereas M. Malone is in my top 30.

Davis is in your top 40? Even with only 660 games played?

ty 4191 · Post #5 » by **ty 4191** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:34 pm

migya wrote:
rk2023 wrote:Davis has the better top years is what I would guess, but I don't find Moses' best campaigns up until 1983 to be too far off - and he probably would grade higher for me in a career sense due to better longevity/consistency. Davis is in my top 40 (maybe), whereas M. Malone is in my top 30.

Davis is in your top 40? Even with only 660 games played?

RK, do you use a timeline or "league quality/depth" adjustment when ranking/assessing players?

rk2023 · Post #6 » by **rk2023** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:46 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
migya wrote:
rk2023 wrote:Davis has the better top years is what I would guess, but I don't find Moses' best campaigns up until 1983 to be too far off - and he probably would grade higher for me in a career sense due to better longevity/consistency. Davis is in my top 40 (maybe), whereas M. Malone is in my top 30.

Davis is in your top 40? Even with only 660 games played?

RK, do you use a timeline or "league quality/depth" adjustment when ranking/assessing players?

I judge players' within their time. I'm not as high on Moses in today's era, nor AD in the 80's for example - but that isn't something I would penalise either with.

rk2023 · Post #7 » by **rk2023** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:46 pm

migya wrote:
rk2023 wrote:Davis has the better top years is what I would guess, but I don't find Moses' best campaigns up until 1983 to be too far off - and he probably would grade higher for me in a career sense due to better longevity/consistency. Davis is in my top 40 (maybe), whereas M. Malone is in my top 30.

Davis is in your top 40? Even with only 660 games played?

Yes - as i'm high on his prime of 2015-20, and felt he added another fringe-MVP / weak-MVP level campaign this season.

70sFan · Post #8 » by **70sFan** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 5:09 pm

I think their peaks are comparable, though I probably prefer Moses slightly.

For primes, Moses gets a clear edge.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #9 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 6:26 pm

I think AD's bubble peak is slightly higher. Overall prime/career goes to Moses.

iggymcfrack · Post #10 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 6:51 pm

RCM88x wrote:Moses both pretty clearly I think, AD has never been the conversation for best player in the league, and maybe has 6 prime seasons.. '15-'20? Moses very much was in that conversation for probably 5 straight seasons '79-'83, and while I don't think his prime extended past '83 I can certainly see people arguing for longer. Regardless, relative to the league he was just better and that gives him a clear edge for me.

This isn’t really true. In the (retro) POY project, Davis ranked 5th in 2015, 3rd in 2018, and 2nd in 2020. I mean I guess you could say Bron was so dominant during AD’s prime that he never really had a case for #1, but that’s more about Malone peaking at a time when the league was down for top stars than anything he did.

Statistically, AD’s a monster. 4th all-time in PER, 5th all-time in playoff PER, 6th all-time in playoff WS/48, 11th all-time in playoff BPM plus he’s an incredible defender. Just for that I have to give him the edge although it is tough that he has a hard time staying on the court.

RCM88x · Post #11 » by **RCM88x** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 7:01 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Moses both pretty clearly I think, AD has never been the conversation for best player in the league, and maybe has 6 prime seasons.. '15-'20? Moses very much was in that conversation for probably 5 straight seasons '79-'83, and while I don't think his prime extended past '83 I can certainly see people arguing for longer. Regardless, relative to the league he was just better and that gives him a clear edge for me.

This isn’t really true. In the (retro) POY project, Davis ranked 5th in 2015, 3rd in 2018, and 2nd in 2020. I mean I guess you could say Bron was so dominant during AD’s prime that he never really had a case for #1, but that’s more about Malone peaking at a time when the league was down for top stars than anything he did.

Statistically, AD’s a monster. 4th all-time in PER, 5th all-time in playoff PER, 6th all-time in playoff WS/48, 11th all-time in playoff BPM plus he’s an incredible defender. Just for that I have to give him the edge although it is tough that he has a hard time staying on the court.

Point still stands then I think, no?

Dooley · Post #12 » by **Dooley** » Mon Jul 3, 2023 7:40 pm

Moses ahead pretty cleanly. I'd take AD for the modern league but Moses for anytime before the 3-point revolution

migya · Post #13 » by **migya** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:20 am

Dooley wrote:Moses ahead pretty cleanly. I'd take AD for the modern league but Moses for anytime before the 3-point revolution

That's a good way of looking at it and seems right.

iggymcfrack · Post #14 » by **iggymcfrack** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:55 am

RCM88x wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Moses both pretty clearly I think, AD has never been the conversation for best player in the league, and maybe has 6 prime seasons.. '15-'20? Moses very much was in that conversation for probably 5 straight seasons '79-'83, and while I don't think his prime extended past '83 I can certainly see people arguing for longer. Regardless, relative to the league he was just better and that gives him a clear edge for me.

This isn’t really true. In the (retro) POY project, Davis ranked 5th in 2015, 3rd in 2018, and 2nd in 2020. I mean I guess you could say Bron was so dominant during AD’s prime that he never really had a case for #1, but that’s more about Malone peaking at a time when the league was down for top stars than anything he did.

Statistically, AD’s a monster. 4th all-time in PER, 5th all-time in playoff PER, 6th all-time in playoff WS/48, 11th all-time in playoff BPM plus he’s an incredible defender. Just for that I have to give him the edge although it is tough that he has a hard time staying on the court.

Point still stands then I think, no?

I don’t think so, no. If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

70sFan · Post #15 » by **70sFan** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 6:35 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
This isn’t really true. In the (retro) POY project, Davis ranked 5th in 2015, 3rd in 2018, and 2nd in 2020. I mean I guess you could say Bron was so dominant during AD’s prime that he never really had a case for #1, but that’s more about Malone peaking at a time when the league was down for top stars than anything he did.

Statistically, AD’s a monster. 4th all-time in PER, 5th all-time in playoff PER, 6th all-time in playoff WS/48, 11th all-time in playoff BPM plus he’s an incredible defender. Just for that I have to give him the edge although it is tough that he has a hard time staying on the court.

Point still stands then I think, no?

I don’t think so, no. If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

LeBron isn't the reason why Davis never really competed for the POY though, that's the point.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #16 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 8:05 am

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Point still stands then I think, no?

I don’t think so, no. If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

LeBron isn't the reason why Davis never really competed for the POY though, that's the point.

Technically would be in 2020 but AD probably isn’t in that position in 2020 in general without bron lol

I think you could argue ADs talent level could equal best in the league type impact in very specific situations but offensively speaking you need a lot more to optimize him than other guys and he can’t really carry a bad situation offensively that doesn’t fit around him at all like some other guys can

70sFan · Post #17 » by **70sFan** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 8:13 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
I don’t think so, no. If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

LeBron isn't the reason why Davis never really competed for the POY though, that's the point.

Technically would be in 2020 but AD probably isn’t in that position in 2020 in general without bron lol

I think you could argue ADs talent level could equal best in the league type impact in very specific situations but offensively speaking you need a lot more to optimize him than other guys and he can’t really carry a bad situation offensively that doesn’t fit around him at all like some other guys can

His defensive consistency is also lacking. I mean, if Davis was on his 2023 level defensively throughout his whole prime, he wouldn't need to be top tier offensive player to compete for the POY. Unfortunately, he wasn't on that level outside of the bubble.

migya · Post #18 » by **migya** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 10:26 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
This isn’t really true. In the (retro) POY project, Davis ranked 5th in 2015, 3rd in 2018, and 2nd in 2020. I mean I guess you could say Bron was so dominant during AD’s prime that he never really had a case for #1, but that’s more about Malone peaking at a time when the league was down for top stars than anything he did.

Statistically, AD’s a monster. 4th all-time in PER, 5th all-time in playoff PER, 6th all-time in playoff WS/48, 11th all-time in playoff BPM plus he’s an incredible defender. Just for that I have to give him the edge although it is tough that he has a hard time staying on the court.

Point still stands then I think, no?

I don’t think so, no. If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

You're saying 1983 was an incredibly weak year? If so you are wrong. 2020 could be seen as a relatively weak year with all that went on.

Bird and Magic where in their primes, Kareem was still a very good player, DrJ in his prime and others like Gervin, Moncrief, Dantley and Gilmore.

70sFan · Post #19 » by **70sFan** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 11:48 am

migya wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Point still stands then I think, no?

I don’t think so, no. If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

You're saying 1983 was an incredibly weak year? If so you are wrong. 2020 could be seen as a relatively weak year with all that went on.

Bird and Magic where in their primes, Kareem was still a very good player, DrJ in his prime and others like Gervin, Moncrief, Dantley and Gilmore.

Yeah, throwing 1983 away due to lack of competition, while raving about 2020 with injured Curry and Durant isn't fair to me. 2020 was a down year, though it wasn't weak with LeBron and Giannis having elite seasons or course.

AEnigma · Post #20 » by **AEnigma** » Tue Jul 4, 2023 2:01 pm

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:If AD was consensus best player other than the literal GOAT and Moses was consensus best player in an incredibly weak year, I don’t think that confers an advantage. It would be like comparing Cousy to Frazier or Arizin to Ewing. If they were ever the best player in the league at the time they played, it says more about their era than it does about their skill.

Yeah, throwing 1983 away due to lack of competition, while raving about 2020 with injured Curry and Durant isn't fair to me. 2020 was a down year, though it wasn't weak with LeBron and Giannis having elite seasons or course.

That is literally the only part which matters to the issue of whether a player was “#1” in a given year.