RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar)

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RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:19 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. There will also be a Nomination vote where whoever gets nominated by the most voters gets added to the Nominee list for subsequent votes. This is again optional.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:
AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
Dutchball97
eminence
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
One_and_Done
penbeast0
rk2023
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ZeppelinPage


Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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Wilt Chamberlain
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Tim Duncan
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Michael Jordan
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Bill Russell
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#2 » by eminence » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:36 pm

Been some discussion on it, so a small WOWY post for the nominees, and LeBron for reference.

I think it's worth separating 'injury' WOWY and 'team change' WOWY. A team missing a superstar due to injury will (usually) not make a serious attempt to replace them, while losing one to retirement/FA/trade they will (usually) still try to build a functional team.

Here I'll be looking at 'team change' WOWY.

Notes:
-Potentially lots of confounding team changes.
-Not widely available to measure for all players/seasons (Curry for instance has no prime-relevant 'team change' WOWY samples because he hasn't changed teams in prime).
-Generally speaking it's more impressive to see a +10 win change from 40 to 50 than from 20 to 30.

Basic calculation:

Wins in games player played - Wins in season closest to player arrival/departure (both adjusted to an 82 game schedule)

-Wins are the goal and a better descriptive metric than SRS/MOV, also avoiding a level of needless abstraction
-Rounded to the nearest win
-Denoted as the players 'impact', not as the season to season change (eg. +7 for '54-'55 Mikan means the Lakers dropped 7 games in win pace)
-I've treated it a bit differently for players traded midseason. For the team trading for the star I measure it as win pace with - pace without. For the team trading the star I look at the next season as usual (theoretical exception for star for star trades).
-I considered adding some notes, but I'm sure folks will feel notable situations were missed no matter how many are/aren't made, so feel free to make your own.
-I've explicitly excluded Kareems retirement, rookie Duncan and MJs second retirement. I don't feel any of them to be good samples for this type of measure (not close enough to prime level on the first, too much team change on the next two). Let's all pretend Wizards Jordan doesn't exist.
-The above leaves Duncan with no samples :(

Russell:
'56 to '57 Celtics (w/Russell): +3 win pace
'69 (w/Russell) to '70 Celtics: +15 win pace

Wilt:
'59 to '60 Warriors (w/Wilt): +17 win pace
'65 to '65 Sixers (w/Wilt): +2 win pace
'65 (w/Wilt) to '65 Warriors (w/o Wilt): +8 win pace
'65 (w/Wilt) to '66 Warriors: -14 win pace
'68 (w/Wilt) to '69 Sixers: +7 win pace
'68 to '69 Lakers (w/Wilt): +3 win pace
'73 (w/Wilt) to '74 Lakers: +13 win pace

KAJ:
'69 to '70 Bucks (w/KAJ): +29 win pace
'75 (w/KAJ) to '76 Bucks: +6 win pace
'75 to '76 Lakers (w/KAJ): +10 win pace

MJ:
'84 to '85 Bulls (w/MJ): +11 wins
'93 (w/MJ) to '94 Bulls: +4 wins
'95 (pre/MJ) to '95 Bulls (w/MJ): +20
'95 (pre/MJ) to '96 Bulls (w/MJ): +29 (alternatively +17 from '94 to '96)

LeBron:
'03 to '04 Cavs (w/LeBron): +17 wins
'10 (w/LeBron) to '11 Cavs: +46 wins
'10 to '11 Heat (w/LeBron): +12 wins
'14 (w/LeBron) to '15 Heat: +18 wins
'14 to '15 Cavs (w/LeBron): +26 wins
'18 (w/LeBron) to '19 Cavs: +31 wins
'18 to '19 Lakers (w/LeBron): +7 wins
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#3 » by eminence » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:41 pm

For voting I'll be considering Russell/KAJ/Duncan, am looking forward to seeing various posts comparing them. Expecting many posts comparing them to MJ :P

For nominations my first thought considerations - Mikan (I believe he'd have a likely voter), Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, and KG. Is anyone considering anyone else?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#4 » by Tim Lehrbach » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:48 pm

I'd better post earlier -- and better -- for Russell this time.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#5 » by rk2023 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 5:59 pm

Voting considerations: Russell, Kareem, Jordan

Nominee considerations: Mikan, Hakeem, Shaq

Both listed chronologically.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 6:20 pm

Vote #1: I'm going to quote Doctor MJ's post about why I am voting for Russell because it says it better than I could:

Spoiler:
Vote 1: Bill Russell

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The Great Rivals
Alright, Imma take a bit of a journey here, and I'll give the trigger warning that Wilt Chamberlain will loom large here, and will be criticized. I don't do this because I hate Wilt, but because Wilt was always seen as the GOAT basketball talent, and the standard by which others were judged. Even Russell himself came to be re-defined as a contrast to Wilt in a way that was very different from how he was perceived originally - which I might say could have been called a Goliath-type.

So, I think that probably the most important specific comparison to understand when doing historical basketball GOATs is Russell vs Wilt. We get all sorts of stories past down about this comparison, and all savvy young skeptics find the following point resonant:

It's a team game, so if one star seems to be doing a lot more than the other but his team is losing, maybe it's because it's a TEAM GAME! It doesn't help when you hear arguments that start throwing around words like 'loser' to describe a guy whose teams did a lot more winning than losing. There's no doubt that winning-bias type arguments have been used for forever to argue for Russell over Wilt. Sufficed to say then, when I came to RealGM as a more-informed-than-most basketball fan, I ranked Wilt ahead of Russell.

As I dove deeper into the past however, a few things really shaped my perspective and swung me to the other side:

1. The fact that all through this time period it seems that defensive impact was possible to a considerably greater extent than offensive impact. This is something that by itself might be more of an argument for Russell over Oscar & West than Wilt. Simply put, in a world where offensive impact is more possible than defensive, which is where I think we tend to start by default, there are really good reasons to think that not just Wilt but other players were more deserving of MVPs than Russell.

When you realize that defense truly was king back then, then at least in-era, you lose a lot of that reason to be skeptical about Russell. When you watch a pitcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey seemingly shutdown the opposing offense, you have no qualms about calling that player the MVP of that game even if that guy couldn't be expected to hit homers or skate with grace. And to extent, the data told me that basketball in that era was somewhat analogous.

This alone didn't put Russell ahead of Wilt though, because Wilt was also capable of massive defensive impact, and Wilt was about as good of an offensive player as they come, right? I mean, even if we grant Russell the edge on defense, can it really make up for Wilt scoring 20-30 more points than Russell?

2. The incredible success of the '66-67 76ers, where Wilt was less of a scorer, and yet the team took a massive leap forward on offense.

This is where going through year-by-year and thinking about why the people involved made the decisions they made ended up having a profound impact on me. If Wilt is the greatest scorer of the age, then why would any coach come in and tell Wilt to shoot MUCH less? Well and good to say to say that changing the approach allowed for Wilt to have facilitator's impact on his teammate, but that implies that it was a choice between Shooter Wilt and Passer Wilt, and Passer Wilt was just better (at least for the context in question). From there you actually got people saying Wilt was the GOAT scorer and even better as a passer, which just doesn't make a lot of sense.

At the heart of the issue is that in the end shooting and passing are decisions that a player makes in the moment, and the expectation has always been that a player will need to do both, and thus is on the hook for deciding which move is best each and every moment. And so if a player gets incrementally better players around him, he should be a smidge less likely to shoot and more likely to pass.

So what does it say when a coach comes in and afterward a player becomes MUCH less likely to shoot and MUCH more likely to pass? That it's not really about the change in teammates, but the change to a kind of default setting. A "default setting" that really should be as close to undetectable as possible if you're reacting to what the defense gives you.

And if you're that new coach and you have any sort of common sense at all, you don't do this to any star just for the heck of it, let alone the most celebrated scorer in the history of the sport. You would only do it if you saw a problem and were so confident in what you say that you were willing to risk becoming a laughing stock for all time. And make no mistake, had Alex Hannum's new scheme backfired, that's what he would have been. When you question conventional wisdom and conventional wisdom proves correct, you generally look like a fool. When you do that in your career on something big enough to always be the first thing people remember about you, it's often a career killer.

So then I think the most important question for folks to answer about '66-67, is: What did Hannum see? So long as you take this part very seriously as essential to evaluation of Wilt, I respect others coming to different conclusions.

Way back in the day when I was doing the blogging thing I wrote a post that's probably (hopefully?) still worth reading:

Chamberlain Theory: The Real Price of Anarchy in Basketball

Which led to this general takeaway about basketball:

There is more to judging the effectiveness of a scorer, or a player in general, than simply his most obvious related statistics, and pursuit of those obvious statistics without proper awareness for the rest of the court can erase most if not all of a scorer’s positive impact, even when those obvious statistics are as great as any in all of history.

Interestingly as I read this now I think about something I wasn't aware of back then: Goodhart's Law

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes.

Often paraphrased (and simplified) as

When the measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Anyway, getting back to Russell vs Wilt, while previously I had been in a camp that might have said something like "I believe you that Russell had an edge on defense even above Wilt, but I can't fathom it was enough to make up for Wilt's 50 to 18 PPG scoring advantage", that became a lot harder to be skeptical of when I had to admit to myself that I believe that 24 PPG Wilt was actually more effective than 50 PPG Wilt.

Once I got past that statistical hang up, believing that Russell was often more valuable than Wilt seemed actually plausible.

3. I do think something that just needs to be acknowledged is that this notion of winning as many titles as possible to become the GOAT just wasn't the same thing back then, and it really wasn't the same for someone like Wilt who understandably saw basketball as just one source of public success. "Bigger than the game" makes it sound like it's about ego, but in the deeper past top athletes would jump from sport to sport to the movies to the recording studio wherever attention and fortune availed.

In some ways, that's always been true and is true now...but the difference is that someone like LeBron knows that the more he achieves through his years in the NBA, the bigger his reach after he retires. Literally this wasn't even true for Wilt. Winning a title was important...but from there to him it didn't follow that he should milk the success to achieve a dynasty. To him, it made financial sense to get himself to Hollywood. (Noteworthy that LeBron is in Hollywood now too...but he didn't come until after he was convinced he couldn't win more where he was.)

All this to say then that in some ways the entire basis of this project is "unfair" to Wilt in a way that the Peak project is not. He really wasn't trying to "max out" his NBA career the way guys do now, and the NBA-centered nature of this project then ends up effectively penalizing Wilt for this.

This pertains to why I tend to emphasize that there are myriad different ways to rank these guys, and a difference in spot lit criteria in a project such as this can easily lead to one thinking that someone else completely denies the greatness of a guy simply because a particular criteria ends up casting a smaller shadow than another angle would.

Russell on the Regular
Okay, let me continue on this point but widen out the gaze a bit:

While Wilt's tendency to stargaze is a completely understandable thing that just happens to penalize him under Career Achievement criteria, there is also the matter that it's really, really hard to keep beating all comers again and again and again the way Russell and the Celtics did. There's a certain joy in repetition that you need from this. It's not about winning the 11th title, it's about the process of proving yourself every day. It's about self-discipline, and in a team sport, working well with teammates on and off the court. If you don't have all those things, you're either going to run out of gas a lot sooner, or you're going to rip yourselves apart.

While I'm not going to say that Bill Russell is the only player with the mindset who could have put his team on his back to the top so regularly for so long, I think it speaks to a powerful capability where we all exist on a spectrum of greater and lesser ability to do it. I see many, many other stars who I think clearly don't have what it takes, and frankly I don't think I could have done it had I had Russell's body. I think it's important to recognize that this in and of itself is part of what makes Russell so special.

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Russell the Defensive Archetype
Alright, so far I've alluded to Russell's defensive greatness but I haven't really drilled down. I'm going to point to another blog post I wrote, this at the end of that experiment:

Searching for Bill Russell ~ Starring Anthony Davis (2012)

The context here was my excitement over Anthony Davis as a prospect, which makes it interesting to look back on in its own right, but I bring it up here for the same reason why I was focused on finding a new Russell at the time: I see Russell as essentially the ideal build for a defensive player.

As stunningly agile as he was for his size, Chamberlain still could not compare with Russell in this regard. He had various clear advantages to Russell (strength, and likely fine motor skills come to mind), but the agility gap meant that there were simply things Russell could do than Chamberlain couldn’t. From Bill Russell: A Biography:

Bill understood that Wilt’s game was more vertical, that is, from the floor to the basket. Wilt’s game was one of strength and power…Bill’s game was built on finesse and speed, what he called a horizontal game, as he moved back and forth across the court blocking shots, running the floor, and playing team defense.

Russell’s quickness, along with instincts and superb leaping ability, meant that Russell could cast a larger shadow on the defensive side of the court. He could run out to challenge perimeter shooting, and recover quickly enough that he wouldn’t let his team get burned. That ability to have more global impact, and his sense to use it wisely, made him a more valuable defensive player than Chamberlain could ever be.


That you'd want length has always been a thing that's clear in basketball, but it's not necessarily obvious that a more lithe frame is better than a thicker one. Strength has its advantages too after all, and if basketball were a merely one-on-one sport where one guy just backed the other guy down, thicker would be better.

But it's a team game on an open field. It's a game of horizontal space, as is alluded to in the quote, and that's where Russell's unique combination of strengths gave him immense benefit.

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Russell the Revolutionary
Now, this is a project that isn't about things like influence, and so a player being a spearhead doesn't necessarily help his case. Nonetheless, I think it's important to understand how Russell became what he became.

Russell was not a star in high school. Not because of an ultra-late growth spurt. Not because of racism. Why? A few things:

First, he played at California-state-champion type high school (McClymonds). There was extreme talent on the team, and as a result Russell didn't come of age with everything built toward making use of him. He came of age fitting in with other talents.

But I don't mean to imply that Russell was the secret MVP of those high school team with his teammates getting all the scoring glory. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that he was THAT good at the time, and when Russell describes his journey, he makes clear that the place where he really found his way in basketball was not in high school, but on a traveling all-star team he happened to join after high school.

Why do I say "happened"? As he describes it, the traveling all-star team was launched in the middle of the school year, but because Russell was a "splitter" who graduated on an earlier track, and he was the only senior on the team for whom this is true, when the all-star team came looking to add a McClymonds player to their roster, Russell was the only choice available.

And so it happened that Russell ended up spending months after his high school career riding on a bus from town to town playing basketball without any active coaching, and something funny occurred:

From "Second Wind" by Bill Russell
Within a week after the All-Star tour began, something happened that opened my eyes and chilled my spine…Every time one of them would make one of the moves I liked, I’d close my eyes just afterward and try to see the play in my mind. In other words, I’d try to create an instant replay on the inside of my eyelids.

“On this particular night I was working on replays of many plays, including McKelvey’s way of taking an offensive rebound and moving quickly to the hoop. It’s a fairly simple play for any big man in basketball, but I didn’t execute it well and McKelvey did. Since I had an accurate version of his technique in my head, I started playing with the image right there on the bench, running back the picture several times and each time inserting a part of me for McKelvey. Finally I saw myself making the whole move, and I ran this over and over, too. When I went into the game, I grabbed an offensive rebound and put it in the basket just the way McKelvey did. It seemed natural, almost as if I were just stepping into a film and following the signs.”

“For the rest of the trip I was nearly possessed by basketball. I was having so much fun that I was sorry to see each day end, and I wanted the nights to race by so that the next day could start. The long rides on the bus never bothered me. I talked basketball incessantly, and when I wasn’t talking I was sitting there with my eyes closed, watching plays in my head. I was in my own private basketball laboratory, making blueprints for myself.


Russell began this process of watching basketball in his head as an active participant, and soon began focusing less on trying to do what he saw other guys do, and instead how to defend against those guys. And then he started revolutionizing basketball right there with his eyes closed - not that he knew that then - what he knew is that he came back from the tour a much, much better basketball player.

Now, before we buy in entirely to the idea that Russell was a scrub in high school, I mean, the man did get a scholarship offer to play for the University of San Francisco (USF). Not a powerhouse program, but that doesn't mean they just hand out scholarships to anybody. Russell says that the USF scout had happened to see him play a particularly good game in high school, I'll let you decide how much of this is false modesty.

The cool thing though at USF is that since freshman couldn't play on the Varsity team, he basically got another year developing before having to fit in with stars under a coach. And in that year, he met KC Jones, and the two of them basically went Einstein on the game:

“We decided that basketball is basically a game of geometry –of lines, points and distances–and that the horizontal distances are more important than the vertical ones.”

“KC and I spent hours exploring the geometry of basketball, often losing track of the time. Neither of us needed a blackboard to see the play the other was describing…It was as if I was back on the Greyhound, assembling pictures of moves in my mind, except that KC liked to talk about what combinations of players could do. I had been daydreaming about solo moves, but he liked to work out strategies. KC has an original basketball mind, and he taught me how to scheme to make things happen on the court, particularly on defense…He was always figuring out ways to make the opponent take the shot he wanted him to take when he wanted him to take it, from the place he wanted the man to shoot.”

“Gradually, KC and I created a little basketball world of our own. Other players were lost in our conversations because we used so much shorthand that no one could follow what we were saying. Most of the players weren’t interested in strategy anyway.”


The pair would soon take the college basketball world by storm, and take USF to the big time and back-to-back NCAA championships.

I'd note here in Russell you have an example of someone with an incredibly active basketball imagination once it got turned on - which of course didn't happen until he had time AWAY from coaches - but it's not that I'm saying that his talent on this front was one-of-a-kind and that that was his truly greatest strength. Russell was unusual in such talent surely, but really it was him getting into certain types strategic habits with the reinforcement of a similar mind that caused something of an exponential curve. And of course, the application of that curve was on Russell's body, which was a far greater body talent than what Jones possessed.

I also think Russell elaborate on the horizontal game tellingly in this quote but unfortunately I'm not sure which book it was from:

Beginning in my freshman year, I developed the concept of horizontal and vertical games. I made a distinction between the two that others had not done. The horizontal game meant how I played side to side. The vertical game was how I played up and down. I knew that if I could integrate the two games, our team could win. I would always be in a position to determine where the ball was and where it was going.

What I saw was how much more there was to the game than that. I would lie awake at night and play with numbers. How much time was there in an NBA game? Forty-eight minutes. How many shots were taken in a game? Maybe a hundred and sixty, eighty or so on each side. I calculated the number of seconds each shot took—a second, a second and a half—and then I multiplied by a hundred. Two hundred forty seconds at most—or four minutes. Then add a single extra second for a foul shot missed and then the ball put in play; add another minute at the most. So, five minutes out of forty-eight are actually taken up in the vertical game.


What I'm hoping you're getting a picture of is a young man who started thinking for himself about how he could best help his team win at basketball.

From an innovator's perspective, this is what would put Russell at the very top of my list of all basketball players in history. This archetype of the horizontal & vertical force who intimidated shots like nobody's business but who relied on non-vertical agility to do a whole bunch of other things that were valuable, Russell basically invented it. Not saying no one before had ever done anything like it, but it wasn't what was being taught by coaches.

In Russell's words:

On defense it was considered even worse to leave your feet…The idea was for the defensive player to keep himself between his man and the basket at all times. Prevent lay-ups, keep control, stay on your feet. By jumping you were simply telegraphing to your opponent that you could be faked into the air. Defenses had not begun to adjust to the jump shot.


Russell would be the one, then, who would make that adjustment and have the world take notice, and only after he did that did the coaches begin coaching players to do Russell-type things.

Note: As I say this you might be thinking that this can't be true because of the arrival of the Big Man in the '40s with George Mikan and Bob Kurland to college basketball. Some things to note:

Quickly after the arrival of those players, goaltending was introduced as a rule. Had it not, then certainly at-the-rim shot-blocking would have quickly become THE way to play defense.

So what Russell's talking about isn't the ability to get your hand considerably higher than the rim, but about aggressively blocking shots on the way up, and not just for your man, but from anybody on the other team, which wasn't seen as a realistic option until Russell.

Caveat: A distinction must be made between Kurland & Mikan. Kurland was the true mega-shot-blocker, not Mikan. As such, it's possible that Russell would have grown up in a different landscape had Kurland chosen to play pro ball.

With that said, Kurland was the the big man star of the US Olympic teams in their '48 & '52 gold medals, and Russell was the star of the '56 team. From what I've read, even for players used to getting beat by Kurland in the Olympics, Russell felt shockingly different because of his quickness.

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Russell and the Future
Okay, I've probably long since lost folks with my meanders, so let me try to tie this back together:

With what I've written so far I think it's clear why Russell would be my pre-Kareem GOAT, but what about Kareem and all the players who came after?

Well, Russell vs Kareem is a great comparison and I completely understand voting for Kareem. Kareem is literally a guy who I'd have given the DPOY to in some years, and I think his scoring impact was far more reliable than Wilt's. Shouldn't that be enough to give him the nod?

Well, when I think about player achievement, I have a tendency to focus on the team success of the player with more team success and ask myself if I think the other player can do better. And the thing is, I don't think Kareem's Celtics could match Russell's Celtics. I think in Kareem you've got someone more like a longer Kurland, whereas in Russell you've got a combination of length & quickness that was basically unheard of at least until Olajuwon.

I could see arguments for coming up with the ideal team with a comparable amount of supporting talent for Kareem being better than those Celtics, but there's really nothing I can imagine that I'd bet on winning 11 titles in 13 years.

Now, you might say, "Well but no one can do that, so Russell is going to be your GOAT forever", but this is where we get into the degree of difficulty of the league. It's not going to take the same title winning percentage to top Russell. What will it take? We'll see. It's not about hitting a particular pre-set threshold. It's a case-by-case comparison. I take both Jordan & LeBron as serious candidates to surpass Russell, and in 2020 I put both ahead of Russell.

But, that was coming from a perspective that was essentially 2020-oriented. Do I think Russell would be the best player in today's game? No. I think that once the shooters in the game got good enough, it decreased how much you could dominate the game as a defender, and that gives offensive stars the edge.

Thing is, it didn't just give Jordan & James the edge. It gives entire types of players the edge, so on what basis did I have Russell at #3? As I reflected, it just became undeniably inconsistent, and if I ran it back again, I'm not sure where Russell would have landed.

I'll admit to this feeling wrong to me, and that feeling influenced me to ruminate, but I do want to be clear that I don't like the idea of changing my criteria so that I can keep a particular player super-high. I suppose though, while I'm fine with Russell not being at the top of my list, the idea of him moving way far down just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

Not that I'm the first person to think this - many, many people have thought I've done things wrong along these lines and criticized my approach as disrespecting the past. In the end though it's not so much about respecting the past being worthy of a particular spot on the list, but of how I want to try to rank guys from the past.

Do I want to try to gauge the Russells of the world primarily based on how they'd fair against a technique that exists because of a rule change that came about after (and because of) them?, or, Do I want to focus on why what they did in their day that was so worth remembering?

Viewed like this, it's the latter.

Back to Jordan & LeBron in comparison to Russell, it's not just that they have less rings, but that they have warts in their careers. Jordan was something of an individualist in a team game whose strengths allowed him to take game by the horns in his prime, but whose attitude had a destructiveness to it that showed itself more late in his career (Washington), but it's not like it wasn't there before. It could have tripped him up more severely in prime, and I feel like it was bound to cause problems as he aged.

LeBron on the other hand has a combination of missed opportunities and tendency to jump ship (or push those around him overboard) that I think has kept his career from reaching the heights of what I really still see as possible in today's game. Maybe I'll look back on this vote in the years to come and think this was naive - maybe no one will top him for decades to come and I'll end up again re-evaluating LeBron and putting back on top, but as things stand, I'm more impressed with what Russell did....


To answer some specific doubts about Russell:

(1) His defensive dominance while turning over the entire roster was incredible. The degree of separation between the Celtic defenses and the rest of the league in an average Russell year is the equivalent of peak Hakeem or peak Garnett defenses. And he maintained that defensive dominance for well over a decade! I don't care whether a player dominates with scoring like Jordan, passing like Magic, or any other measure, to me it's about era dominance tempered by era strength.
(2) The issue of era strength for the 60s. I have the 60s above the 70s and roughly equal to the 80s mainly due to dilution from expansion. A bit behind the 90s, and significantly behind the last decade since the pace and space revolution because of the influx of great international talent hugely expanded the player pool. Why do I not think the 60s were behind the 70s and 80s? This time I will quote myself:

Spoiler:
I would tend to agree on the problems of load management and stars missing so many games due to protocols though with the expectation that this becomes less of a problem and and 2020s will end up being stronger than the 2010s. But I don't think it's there yet.

2010s
2020s
. . .
2000s
. . .
1990s the trend toward isolation offense led to some flashy star seasons but were not productive to developing good, well rounded, basketball players pushing one-on-one skills more than most decades. The beginning of the great international migration is in this era but they aren't making the kind of impact they have in the upcoming century.

1980s/1960s -- the 80s were the era of the superteams with expansion still wrecking havoc on the lower half of the league. European stars were not yet making much impact. I would say the early 1960s concentrated so much talent into so few teams that top to bottom, the average team was stronger than the early 80s despite the Celtic domination. I would say the second half of the 80s overcame this concentration effect (and the late 60s started the expansion era) and were stronger than the 60s.
. . .
The 1970s were massively weakened by expansion but that wasn't the only factor weakening play. Player mobility, jumping leagues or threatening to jump leagues, created a situation where more players seemed to be playing for the contract and this was exacerbated by the epidemic of cocaine use. On the flip side of this issue, PEDs (particularly steroids) and the much wider use of weight work and stretching contributed to much more athletic players and a less ground bound style of play. In the 60s, it was basically just a few superstars who were dunking (like 3 point shooting in the 80s/90s), by the mid 70s, it was the norm rather than the exception.
...
The slow integration of the league weakened the player pool. Stars were getting drafted into military service. And stylistically, there were still players using the two handed set shot and the running hook as their go to moves with leaguewide a lot of missed shots and slower stronger bigger bodies to wrestle around underneath the basket for all those rebounds.


Vote #2: The next vote for me is between Wilt, Kareem, and MJ. I have been voting MJ in the last couple of these GOAT lists and he's hard to pick against combing individual brilliance and team success. I do think Wilt was the more dominant player and Kareem had more meaningful longevity. However, I'm afraid I have to vote for Jordan at #3.

Kareem however had disappointing results in his statistical prime and was notoriously withdrawn from his teammates in a way the other GOATs were not at least until he teamed up with Magic Johnson. A lot of this was due to the racial issues of the 70s and Kareem's becoming a Muslim. This wasn't universally accepted either by fans, including those in Milwaukee, or by teammates. He had that incredible longevity which points to his professionalism though, even though I am lower on meaningful longevity outside of an 8 year prime window.

Similarly, Jordan gets knocked by me for being such a jerk to his teammates, picking fights and belittling them in the press. He has always gotten a pass on this because he won anyway but as time passes, I wonder if there were more than 2 or 3 coaches in NBA history who could have gotten him to take on a less on-ball role and gotten his teammates to buy in. He was fortunate that he had the GOAT coach (in my opinion) in Phil Jackson to mitigate his toxic personality issues.

Wilt also had personality issues that got in the way of his basketball success. He notoriously didn't even live in Philly, commuting down from New York, and was one of those "I won, we lost" type of players at time. To be fair, his teammates did have a history of letting him down through injury and poor play and his coaching (unlike most of the other top players) was erratic over his career. People point to his significantly lower playoff scoring averages in his high scoring days, but his rebounding went up and other teams keyed on him even more in the playoffs. His playoff series win % against everyone but Bill Russell was higher than that of Jordan.

So, tried to talk myself into voting for Wilt but I'm afraid I've failed. He never seemed to have an instinctual feel for how to win, intellectualizing it instead, and despite being the most incredible individual player in NBA history, I still end up going with Jordan.

Nominate: There may be players that I vote for who are nominated yet before this player but off all the players left, he's the one that I think has the best case for top 5 of all time. Just that that case, while compelling in its strengths, has massive flaws. I am nominating George Mikan. Next to Russell, he dominated his era like no other player just that that era was the weakest era of NBA history thanks to the minor league impact of the early league combined with the still continuing exclusion of great black players despite the league formally integrating very early.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#7 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 6:26 pm

eminence wrote:... Let's all pretend Wizards Jordan doesn't exist....


Easy for you to say, I was splitting season tickets with a friend those years. :curse:
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#8 » by ShaqAttac » Tue Jul 4, 2023 6:45 pm

eminence wrote:Been some discussion on it, so a small WOWY post for the nominees, and LeBron for reference.

I think it's worth separating 'injury' WOWY and 'team change' WOWY. A team missing a superstar due to injury will (usually) not make a serious attempt to replace them, while losing one to retirement/FA/trade they will (usually) still try to build a functional team.

Here I'll be looking at 'team change' WOWY.

Notes:
-Potentially lots of confounding team changes.
-Not widely available to measure for all players/seasons (Curry for instance has no prime-relevant 'team change' WOWY samples because he hasn't changed teams in prime).
-Generally speaking it's more impressive to see a +10 win change from 40 to 50 than from 20 to 30.

Basic calculation:

Wins in games player played - Wins in season closest to player arrival/departure (both adjusted to an 82 game schedule)

-Wins are the goal and a better descriptive metric than SRS/MOV, also avoiding a level of needless abstraction
-Rounded to the nearest win
-Denoted as the players 'impact', not as the season to season change (eg. +7 for '54-'55 Mikan means the Lakers dropped 7 games in win pace)
-I've treated it a bit differently for players traded midseason. For the team trading for the star I measure it as win pace with - pace without. For the team trading the star I look at the next season as usual (theoretical exception for star for star trades).
-I considered adding some notes, but I'm sure folks will feel notable situations were missed no matter how many are/aren't made, so feel free to make your own.
-I've explicitly excluded Kareems retirement, rookie Duncan and MJs second retirement. I don't feel any of them to be good samples for this type of measure (not close enough to prime level on the first, too much team change on the next two). Let's all pretend Wizards Jordan doesn't exist.
-The above leaves Duncan with no samples :(

Russell:
'56 to '57 Celtics (w/Russell): +3 win pace
'69 (w/Russell) to '70 Celtics: +15 win pace

Wilt:
'59 to '60 Warriors (w/Wilt): +17 win pace
'65 to '65 Sixers (w/Wilt): +2 win pace
'65 (w/Wilt) to '66 Warriors: -14 win pace
'68 (w/Wilt) to '69 Sixers: +7 win pace
'68 to '69 Lakers (w/Wilt): +3 win pace
'73 (w/Wilt) to '74 Lakers: +13 win pace

KAJ:
'69 to '70 Bucks (w/KAJ): +29 win pace
'75 (w/KAJ) to '76 Bucks: +6 win pace
'75 to '76 Lakers (w/KAJ): +10 win pace

MJ:
'84 to '85 Bulls (w/MJ): +11 wins
'93 (w/MJ) to '94 Bulls: +4 wins
'95 (pre/MJ) to '95 Bulls (w/MJ): +20
'95 (pre/MJ) to '96 Bulls (w/MJ): +29 (alternatively +17 from '94 to '96)

LeBron:
'03 to '04 Cavs (w/LeBron): +17 wins
'10 (w/LeBron) to '11 Cavs: +46 wins
'10 to '11 Heat (w/LeBron): +12 wins
'14 (w/LeBron) to '15 Heat: +18 wins
'14 to '15 Cavs (w/LeBron): +26 wins
'18 (w/LeBron) to '19 Cavs: +31 wins
'18 to '19 Lakers (w/LeBron): +7 wins

aint srs better?

countin 96 is sus when mj was on the team in 95.

wilt the only one as a - is interestiin.

bron look da best ig n kareem after. wilt looks worst but wins arent worth the same in the 60s right
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Tue Jul 4, 2023 6:53 pm

eminence wrote:'65 (w/Wilt) to '66 Warriors: -14 win pace

Great post, but is there any reason why you picked 1965 Warriors with Wilt vs 1966 Warriors (with Barry), instead of just 1965 Warriors with Wilt vs without Wilt?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#10 » by eminence » Tue Jul 4, 2023 7:03 pm

70sFan wrote:
eminence wrote:'65 (w/Wilt) to '66 Warriors: -14 win pace

Great post, but is there any reason why you picked 1965 Warriors with Wilt vs 1966 Warriors (with Barry), instead of just 1965 Warriors with Wilt vs without Wilt?


I was trying to go for situations where a team tried to build real teams in both settings (they fail sometimes - see the '11/'19 Cavs), and I have the '65 Warriors after Wilt in the same camp as the '97 Spurs/'99 Bulls (actively packing it in). They dealt Wilt for a low end starter, a mediocre bench player and cash. One could reasonably put '65 w/Wilt to '65 w/o Wilt for the Warriors, probably the most controversial choice I made on the list (I tried to avoid making too many). Off the top I think that would have Wilt at +8 (from 14 win pace to 22, whew was that an ugly season all around from the Warriors).

I'll put in both for you :)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#11 » by eminence » Tue Jul 4, 2023 7:11 pm

A notable observation when looking at Wilts career - I'm generally impressed with his East coast seasons and generally disappointed in his West coast seasons.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#12 » by One_and_Done » Tue Jul 4, 2023 7:13 pm

Vote:
1. Tim Duncan

2. Kareem

Nominate: Shaq

I have gone back and forth for my vote between Kareem, Jordan and Duncan. For me they are the clear next 3 players after Lebron. After much thought, I’ve landed on Duncan as my vote for the following reasons.

Firstly, Duncan has in my view the best impact of the 3, which is the whole ethos behind my voting philosophy. He’s got the highest peak of these 3, and a strong prime and incredible longevity. Kareem probably has better longevity than him, or at least a longer prime, but I think Duncan peaked higher. For all Kareem’s huge stats, once you adjust for pace, or per 100 possessions, Kareem’s advantage basically disappears. I also feel Duncan’s prime, from 98 to 07, is “long enough”. He certainly beats Jordan out for longevity, based on how their careers actually unfolded.

Kareem and Jordan are different sorts of offensive powerhouses, and obviously both are superior to Duncan on that end. On the other end though, Duncan is my defensive GOAT. He lets you build a dominant contender around him on that end, while still giving you elite offense in his offensive prime/peak. He’s also obviously a better leader, though I don’t like overvaluing that stuff. The record of him leading the Spurs to 19 years with a win record equal to 58+ wins every year is basically absurd. He didn’t win as many titles as Russell, but that’s because he played in the modern era where titles are harder to come by. I’m not the biggest advanced stats guy, I’m not going to look at someone being 0.4 ahead for their career and come to the conclusion that guy is better. There’s just too much noise to interpret single data points that way. However, Duncn is an advanced stats darling, who the numbers indicate is one of the very best ever. Those defensive smarts, deceptive athleticism in his younger days, and crazy long arms of unconfirmed wingspan, just let him wall off the paint. You can build a whole team around that skillset.

Take for instance this comparison between Duncan and Kareem per 100 possessions. Kareem’s best per 100 possession playoffs that we know of is in 1977. He posted insane playoff stats of 37.8 points, 19.4 rebounds and 4.5 assists per 100 possessions on 646. TS%. Crazy right. Yet Duncan posts comparable stats in some playoffs. In 2002 for instance, at his peak, Duncan put up 36.5 points, 19.1 rebounds and 6.6 assists per 100 possessions. Sure, his TS% was only 550, but we can all agree Kareem has the offensive advantage. That said, in 2006 Duncan put up 37.1, 15.1, and 4.7 per 100 on 625. TS%. Then there’s the other side of the coin, where defensive play was not exactly Kareem’s strength. In contrast Duncan was the defensive GOAT for my money, after adjusting for era. His performance after David Robinson left, or the team performance in games D.Rob missed, shows it’s not due to David Robinson. It’s Duncan who is anchoring the D. In 2003 the Spurs were 15-3 in games Robinson missed. The year after Robinson retired the Spurs D substantially improved, and the year after it was still better. In 2002 we saw him guard Shaq while Robinson was hurt to great effect.

Kareem and Jordan also played in an era where the rules very much favoured them in a comparison with 2002 or 2003 Duncan. Illegal defence rules for instance, which greatly helped players like Kareem (and Hakeem) were absent during Duncan’s peak, and he coped fine. Sure, the 90s was physical, but not compared to 2002 or 2003 where the NBA defensive dominance was so bad that the league changed the rules a few years later. Yet we see Duncan thrive at his peak against that brutal defensive environment.

Duncan also has this incredible career where he seems to have done everything that could have been expected. He was a top 5 player as a rookie, and by year 2 he was the best player in the league. I don’t think you can really look at any of his prime years from 1998 to 2007 and say that his teams should have gone further, and in fact most of them overachieved. The years where they come up short the reasons are pretty obvious, and generally seem to be the fault of other factors not Duncan himself. Jordan had a great career narrative too, but he played in a less competitive era and our perception of him as the GOAT is partly a media creation rather than grounded in empirical reality. If Jordan played today his game would not translate as well without a much better 3 point shot, and the demands on him offball and on D would have been so much more severe that his offensive game would have been suboptimal. Meanwhile the success of guys like Jokic, Embiid and Gobert show Duncan would translate very well. Young Duncan was also deceptively athletic as well. Something younger fans who only saw old man Duncan don’t realise. In his rookie year he played small forward.

Kareem’s 1970 season shows his floor raising ability, and the next year shows how he could lift your ceiling, but I think both efforts are inferior to Duncan’s peak in 2002 or 2003. Even years like 2001 or 1999 Duncan’s support casts are really rubbish. Rewatching the 1999 finals the other days it’s jarring how bad the basketball is; it doesn’t even resemble the modern game. Duncan looks like the only player out there at times, even David Robinson was relatively meh compared to him. But the takeaway from Duncan’s career is his skillset and game still translated. Even in 2013 and 2014 on the Spurs finals and title run he was maybe the best player in an ensemble cast, despite playing on 1 leg. Meanwhile the modern spacing would greatly assist him. Now that’s true for Jordan and Kareem also, but I think some of their other strengths wouldn’t carry over as much and I have Duncan as just better to begin with.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#13 » by rk2023 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 7:26 pm

eminence wrote:A notable observation when looking at Wilts career - I'm generally impressed with his East coast seasons and generally disappointed in his West coast seasons.


I’m higher on 72/73, 64 than most. It’s more the valleys and apexes in his prime at > 1 instance why I’m not *as* high as some may be in a career sense.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#14 » by eminence » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:08 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:aint srs better?

countin 96 is sus when mj was on the team in 95.

wilt the only one as a - is interestiin.

bron look da best ig n kareem after. wilt looks worst but wins arent worth the same in the 60s right


No. It's also kinda questionable to run a partial SRS matrix.

You could ignore the '96 MJ one if you'd like. I find there to be enough of a without sample in '95 to learn something from it, but to each their own.

Wilt certainly had some low points on team switches.

I'd probably order them LeBron>KAJ>MJ>Russell>Wilt, but it's a very weak ordering/stat in general. You can weight wins in various eras how you'd like I guess. I wouldn't say it was harder for top level teams to win a higher % of games in the 60's if that's what you meant.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#15 » by Dooley » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:20 pm

Quick first thoughts on the current nominee pool (in my rough current mental order) and potential next nominees

Michael Jordan - I voted for him last thread; will probably vote for him again. Crazy offensive production and box-score numbers, more impact on how his team's offenses operated than the big man candidates by virtue of being a two-way player, great all-around game, arguably the single best peak of all time, etc. What would change my mind on Jordan would be evidence that his scoring is less valuable than I think.

Kareem - Kareem was a great player, I think the best big man of all time, phenomenal two-way big. The things that put Kareem behind Jordan for me are: 1, Kareem wasn't as dominant and didn't have as much of a playoff footprint during his prime as you would expect given that he played in a markedly weak era. There are various explanations for this, it's not a huge problem, but it gives me pause especially compared to Jordan. 2, Kareem wasn't either a super-high-usage offensive centerpiece or a super-elite defensive big. He was a phenomenal two-way player but I question whether his value overall was greater than Jordan given that Jordan *was* a super-high-usage offensive centerpiece. Looking at the scoring numbers and taking into account pace etc I do think Jordan's scoring and volume was better and probably more consistent, although Kareem is very impressive and it's not like Kareem was bad in this regard. 3, if Kareem's peak was lower than Jordan's, I'm not sure how I feel about giving Kareem the overall nod based on his 80s performance (especially since I think I emphasize longevity less than other people). Definitely #2 for me right now based on the scoring and overall impact.

Duncan - I am never quite sure how I feel about Duncan. He's a player whose abilities I really respect when I look at them - I think he was a phenomenal, truly elite defender and I think his scoring and offensive game was really valuable in context, he could be a very good primary scorer or an exceptionally good second option and give your team exactly what you needed in either role. At the same time, I always feel a little uncomfortable slotting him super-high. Part of this is the teammate and context stuff, and how much of his career was spent playing in great circumstances; part of it is that I think his prime was probably relatively short, and then he had a really long and excellent post-prime career but still a short prime. But right now I have him here because I think he was a great two-way player and I don't think there were major flaws to his game. And I also think he was a superlatively great teammate.

Wilt - So the thing with Wilt is that at his peak he was amazing. But - due both to team context and probably to some extent his own approach and mindset - it was relatively rare for him to play in a way that maximized his talents. I think his volume scoring early in his career was definitely not the most valuable way for him to play, but I think it was more a result of team context and the lack of great scorers around him. Nevertheless, the unevenness of his career as well as other factors like the poor FT lead me to put him under the other big men at the moment. Having Wilt ahead of Kareem or Duncan seems difficult, though; I think Kareem was a more valuable offensive player, and Duncan was much more consistent.

Russell - Talked about Russell last thread. The issues for me are (1) not a good offensive player (2) I don't assign him as much credit for the Celtics dynasty as others do. I think it would be easy to have him over Wilt - I think Wilt was probably better at his very best but Russell was certainly much more consistent, the two are very very close. At this point, however, I'm not sure what argument could be made that would put Russell over Kareem or especially Duncan for me.

Potential next nominees - Magic, Hakeem, Steph
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#16 » by trelos6 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:24 pm

I threw together a spreadsheet to help rank everyone.

Lebron came out on top by a decent margin. The next 2 were close. And the 4&5 were extremely close.

2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan

Next 2. Bill Russell, Tim Duncan.

Kareem. I have Kareem at 3 amazing seasons, 14 seasons where he was arguably a top 3 player, 15 all-nba seasons, 19 all-star quality seasons and 11 seasons of all D (at the valuable C position).

Michael Jordan came out at 8 amazing seasons, 10 where he was arguably top 3, 11 all nba, 14 all star, and 9 all D.

If you value peak over longevity, then Jordan will overtake Kareem, however, I thought long and hard about how I value each, since this is a career project.

There’s also the fact Jordan retired twice, thus diminishing his ability to accumulate all nba level seasons.

Kareem was an alien, his longevity was unmatched, before Lebron, and his ability to contribute at a high level well into his 30’s earns him the nod, just ahead of MJ.

I’m on vacation for another week, so doing this on mobile, plus I think for the top 10 or so guys, we all know the stats and résumé’s.

As I said earlier, 4&5 are extremely close between Russell and Duncan. So I’ll have to look into it a little closer in the coming days.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#17 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:41 pm

One_and_Done wrote:[
Kareem’s 1970 season shows his floor raising ability, and the next year shows how he could lift your ceiling, but I think both efforts are inferior to Duncan’s peak in 2002 or 2003. Even years like 2001 or 1999 Duncan’s support casts are really rubbish


Duncan is playing with a top 25 player of all-time, and 2 other guys who started on a 59 win team without Duncan

Kareem is playing on expansion team, filled with players other teams didn't want.
It's not even close as to who did more.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#18 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:55 pm

eminence wrote:Be
Russell:
'56 to '57 Celtics (w/Russell): +3 win pace
'69 (w/Russell) to '70 Celtics: +15 win pace



57 Celtics were 28-20 with Russell and 16-8 with him.
If you are comparing the 56 season to his 57 record, then he greatly helped by Heinsohn, who winds up as ROY & All-Star in 57,and "only" makes 6 all-star games because BOS was limited to 3 players.
If you go in-season, then they were worse with him.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#19 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:59 pm

eminence wrote:Been some discussion on it, so a small WOWY post for the nominees, and LeBron for reference.

I think it's worth separating 'injury' WOWY and 'team change' WOWY. A team missing a superstar due to injury will (usually) not make a serious attempt to replace them, while losing one to retirement/FA/trade they will (usually) still try to build a functional team.




Did you consider when players missed part of a season with injury ?
Kareem, Jordan, Walton - in some ways it shows a WOWY as it is simply the addition of the player, a crude on/off
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#20 » by eminence » Tue Jul 4, 2023 10:02 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:
eminence wrote:Be
Russell:
'56 to '57 Celtics (w/Russell): +3 win pace
'69 (w/Russell) to '70 Celtics: +15 win pace



57 Celtics were 28-20 with Russell and 16-8 with him.
If you are comparing the 56 season to his 57 record, then he greatly helped by Heinsohn, who winds up as ROY & All-Star in 57,and "only" makes 6 all-star games because BOS was limited to 3 players.
If you go in-season, then they were worse with him.


This is true, but I consider that more of an 'injury Wowy' situation. The Celtics knew they had Russell returning later in the season and built a squad with him in mind (the results do speak poorly to Russells early career impact).

I don't have large injury sample results sitting around right now, but it's worth looking at, I was just against putting it in the same post, as I see them as fairly different measures.
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