What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[pwayknicks]

One person spent his whole career “chasing a ghost”, the other was the ghost and retired in his absolute prime for 2 years.

That said, lebron is the better basketball player, Jordan dominated his generation more than lebron dominated his. So you decide what you mean when you say GOAT.

Medicine training etc has also changed significantly.


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[Duffman100]

What's difficult in these conversations is there is no 'right answer'. No absolute truth that can be reached.

Ranking these players that are so close to each other it impossible.

[lebootz21]

I grew up watching BOTH Jordan and Lebron and I'm telling you the level of dominance Jordan had on the league was unprecedented. He dominated in every aspect of the game: scoring, defense, championship, hustle, team, longevity, etc.

Forget inflated stats man. You just got to witness the dominance. Lebron can't even do half of what Jordan did. Even in his prime, people were saying Kobe was better (which I still believe today). Then it was Giannis, then Curry, now Jokic. Y'know how many players were truly consider better than Jordan even in his late 30s? 1 ..... Karl Malone and even his mvp years were questionable since Jordan got the ring both years, and not just better on offense, but he was the best defensive player year in and year out. How many all defensive teams did Lebron have? Oh yeah 5. Jordan is tied for the highest record of 9 while being the most DOMINATE scorer in the league. In comparison to today's players, he does not only have the offensive dominance of Durant or Curry but the defensive presence of Smart and Tatum COMBINED.

You weren't there to witness the dominance. You will never understand. That is why you can only fall back on arbitrary numbers that don't tell the whole story.

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.

James is undefeated in NCAA play.

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And who rounded out the starting 5 for the Bulls before Pippen in Chicago?

And Jordan at 39 and 40 with that awesome team in Washington?

Yea man, cant believe he didnt win those 5 years…

[DQuinn1575]

THe only data he is losing in is games played.
After 2017 LeBron had played 1,061 games, Russell 963, Jordan 1,072

The voting:

Thru post #242 (and now nearly 72 hours in on this thread), we have 34 votes.....so a player would need 18 votes to hold a majority. The first place votes are as follows:

Michael Jordan - 12 (andrewww, Clyde Frazier, CyrusMan122000, Eddy_JukeZ, Hornet Mania, JordansBulls, mischievous, RCM88x, RSCD3_, scabbarista, Tesla, Winsome Gerbil)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 11 (Blackmill, Dr Positivity, Joao Saraiva, LABird, Mister Hibachi, Narigo, Outside, Quotatious, trex_8063,
TrueLAfan, wojoaderge)
Bill Russell - 8 (ardee, BasketballFan7, Doctor MJ, Dr Spaceman, drza, kayess, penbeast0, Texas Chuck)
Tim Duncan - 2 (eminence, micahclay)
Lebron James - 1 (Jaivl)

LeBron had 1 vote out of 34.

He's deservedly voted as the best career (I voted for him) because of the accumulation of his accomplishments.

Jordan -
He's first in
career PER,
career WS/48
playoffs WS/48


2nd to Jokic in Career BPM, to Jokic, who has no past peak years.
2nd in VORP, only to someone who has played many more games.

By BPM, his lower playoff series is 6.4 - LeBron has had 6 series worse than this.
I haven't checked to see if there is any other superstar where is worst playoff performance graded out to All-NBA level.

[BostonCouchGM]

besides being the best two-way player in NBA history it's mostly just the eye test and the fact that he was clearly better than the rest of the NBA despite playing in the toughest era with the best teams and best players in NBA history. I guess you just had to be there

[otwok]

Because Michael Jordan is the best player I have ever seen play. When he was at the top, there was never a feeling he was going to lose. Never seen a player like that in my life.

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[Wingy]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

Reality.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

They were drafted 19 years apart, didn’t cross over and their primes were separated by 10 years. Different realities. Comparing their stats isn’t going to get you too far. It’s like comparing MJ’s numbers to Wilt’s, what’s the point. Sorry, you have to get anecdotal.

[Godymas]

Jordan having a higher overall BPM than LeBron in both the regular season and playoffs while having a lower VORP demonstrates that during Jordan's era the competition was higher overall, despite his insane impact.

Despite playing a position that rebounds and assists less, Jordan has a higher career PER than LeBron.

[kali323]

MJ never lost a playoff series with home court advantage

[lebootz21]

Also Lebron's been injured more times in one year than Jordan was his ENTIRE career. Just like work, you're not getting the job done when you don't show up for work. This is why I rank Jordan and Kobe higher than Lebron.

The true greats play through pain. The rest are racking up stats through the greatest travesty in NBA history (yes worse than the malice in the palace) is the so call total BS "pain management."

That makes players weak, thus Lebron is weaker than Jordan in every way imaginable. At least Jordan showed up when it mattered. Lebron can never touch that. You just got to be a witness.

[Castle Black]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And pippen did without Jordan . So Jordan needed pippen more than pippen needed Jordan

Lol. Context matters. Jordan was ages 21-23 and on one of the worst teams in the league when he played without Pippen. Pippen was on a Title contender with players like Horace Grant, Toni Kukoć, Ron Harper, and BJ Armstrong when Jordan retired for 2 seasons.

[Jasen777]

Jordan has 5 of the top 7 seasons by VORP, the best peak (at least post merger).

I do think longevity is underrated and Nike made Jordan a myth more than a player, but he's got a stats case.

Ultimately of course it's not an answerable question.

[zimpy27]

Box score stats and counting rings seems to be the limit of a data-driven argument for Jordan

[NZB2323]

If you want to go by stats, they’re all right here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html

Lebron in the 2011 Finals: 18, 7, 7, 4 turnovers per game, 47/32/60 shooting splits.

Or you could go by Lebron’s numbers in the 2007 Finals: 22, 7, and 7, 4 turnovers a game, 36/20/69 shooting splits.

I know he was only 22, but look at the stats Jordan put up when he was 22 against the 86 Celtics:

44, 6, and 6, 5 turnovers a game, 51/100/87 shooting splits.

[Charlesareed]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

Idk why ppl think that’s the only thing that make MJ the goat when it’s so much more

[Charlesareed]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

[stillgotgame]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

Yep, the Finals record of Jordan has to be tough for a Lebron stan to take:

Mike never lost a Finals.
Mike won MVP in every Finals he was in.
Mike never let a Finals go to 7 games, closed them all out early.

And Mike never got shut down in the finals by JJ Berea.

Watch on YouTube

;t=23s
https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-510-jj-barea-really-locked-up-69-260-lb-lebron-james-in-the-nba-finals-baby-daddy-put-the-clamps-on-heat-star-and-helped-save-dirk-nowitzkis-legacy/