What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[jerok]

This isn't meant to sound like LeBron hate, he's undoubtedly one of the 3 or 4 best ever...

But in addition to the arguments other posters have made, Jordan has no stain on his record anywhere close to LeBron's choke show in the 2011 Finals.

Edit: Since we're talking data, and LeBron is probably Jordan's closest competition for GOAT in most people's minds: he put up 18-7-7 in 2011. Jordan never regressed like that on the biggest stage.

Six championships in his last six full seasons with the Bulls is just impossible to beat.

1989 ECF Game 5.

[Lalouie]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

the point being, as such 70% of the members were not there to viscerally experience the mj-effect,,,which neither numbers nor videos can explain

[tdot_steel]

LeBron is the better all around player he was labeled a pass first guy but he does and always was a scores to a fault also he has longevity over Mj that is all MJ was the real deal had he had longevity like LeBron it would be a question MJ was the only goat since lebron had played 20 seasons he’s racked up every single individual accolades/achievement except dpoy it that a knock on him at all he’s a great great player all time great runner up to MJ i shame in that he can have 10 rings to MJ 6 he’s still not my goat for Various reasons such as ring chasing complaints about not having enough help when he’s the one who picked his teammates and then turns on them he rather cheat to win weather then beat the best players in the league like dude you can’t have all the best players on your team what fun is that he don’t care he thing’s getting more rings then MJ he’s the goat smh heck he thinks he should be loved by the millions and millions or ppl on planet earth shame on him he’s made the league watered down almost unwatchable at times he flops do dirty tactics at times he’s even got someone called for a fouls or technical foul then winks at the camera and suddenly his team wins the game nah bro you gotta beat the best not cheat

We are doing this again????

These Lebron stans have to give it up. Most did not watch MJ except on YouTube. I guarantee you anyone who has witnessed Lebron, Kobe and MJ play will tell you it isn't even close. MJ is the GOAT...just leave it alone.

I would rather people say Lebron is the best they have seen play, instead of anointing him as the GOAT.

[fanofthegreats]

Also Lebron's been injured more times in one year than Jordan was his ENTIRE career. Just like work, you're not getting the job done when you don't show up for work. This is why I rank Jordan and Kobe higher than Lebron.

The true greats play through pain. The rest are racking up stats through the greatest travesty in NBA history (yes worse than the malice in the palace) is the so call total BS "pain management."

That makes players weak, thus Lebron is weaker than Jordan in every way imaginable. At least Jordan showed up when it mattered. Lebron can never touch that. You just got to be a witness.

This and your previous post is a trash argument. Kobe has literally no case above LeBron by any measure.

[fanofthegreats]

LeBron is the better all around player he was labeled a pass first guy but he does and always was a scores to a fault also he has longevity over Mj that is all MJ was the real deal had he had longevity like LeBron it would be a question MJ was the only goat since lebron had played 20 seasons he’s racked up every single individual accolades/achievement except dpoy it that a knock on him at all he’s a great great player all time great runner up to MJ i shame in that he can have 10 rings to MJ 6 he’s still not my goat for Various reasons such as ring chasing complaints about not having enough help when he’s the one who picked his teammates and then turns on them he rather cheat to win weather then beat the best players in the league like dude you can’t have all the best players on your team what fun is that he don’t care he thing’s getting more rings then MJ he’s the goat smh heck he thinks he should be loved by the millions and millions or ppl on planet earth shame on him he’s made the league watered down almost unwatchable at times he flops do dirty tactics at times he’s even got someone called for a fouls or technical foul then winks at the camera and suddenly his team wins the game nah bro you gotta beat the best not cheat

We are doing this again????

These Lebron stans have to give it up. Most did not watch MJ except on YouTube. I guarantee you anyone who has witnessed Lebron, Kobe and MJ play will tell you it isn't even close. MJ is the GOAT...just leave it alone.

I would rather people say Lebron is the best they have seen play, instead of anointing him as the GOAT.

I’ve witnessed all three and LeBron is the best player. Stating nonsense like “Again who watched both…” is not a real argument.

[fanofthegreats]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

[GoBobs]

He won 6 championships in 8 years with the team that drafted him, as unquestionably the best player on his team. The bulls won emphaticly never going to 7 games in the finals.

Two of Lebrons chips were ring chasing on the Heat, and one of those they barely won, it came down to a posession where another player (Ray Allen) decided the series. He also barely won the one with the Cavs, it went 7 and there was a suspension on Draymond and an injury to Bogut that altered the series. Then the one with LA he teamed up with one of the best players in the league again.

So as the best player on their team, one guy absolutly dominated the league for 6 years during an 8 year stretch, winning back to back to back, twice. The other guy won 4 times during a 9 year stretch. He never won back to back to back. Two of the 4 chips came after he purposly creacted a superteam by teaming up with the best players in the league.

So that is the reason why. The only way to say Lebron is better is to come up with some lame excuse why Lebron didn't do what Mike did.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Box score stats and counting rings seems to be the limit of a data-driven argument for Jordan

And BPM, WS/48, PER...
So to recap, Jordan's only arguments are raw box score stats, titles, and advanced stats.

What a lousy argument he has

[FluLikeSymptoms]

How did Kobe get in here.

[tdot_steel]

If you want to go by stats, they’re all right here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html

Lebron in the 2011 Finals: 18, 7, 7, 4 turnovers per game, 47/32/60 shooting splits.

Or you could go by Lebron’s numbers in the 2007 Finals: 22, 7, and 7, 4 turnovers a game, 36/20/69 shooting splits.

I know he was only 22, but look at the stats Jordan put up when he was 22 against the 86 Celtics:

44, 6, and 6, 5 turnovers a game, 51/100/87 shooting splits.

Watch the full game of Jordan against the Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge and Bill Walton)
Yes, a team of 5 HOF players were taken to overtime by Jordan, Charles Oakley and Orlando Woolridge (who?)

Watch on YouTube

[cam24thomas]

10 scoring titles, 30.1ppg career average, both are records nobody in today's NBA can touch despite the ease of scoring today.

[ghillphx]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

Stop. Get a new hobby

[Yank3525]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-michael-jordan-was-the-best/amp/

538 already covered this.

[Lalouie]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

so then here's mine,,,apart from the stats.

what makes lebron everyone's favorite is the "package".

that is, the unimaginable size of the man with a complete skillset. i think of lebron as shaq-TYPE with a skillset, in that his biggest asset is his size. i think people find this amazing. even i think he's an amazing athlete. i think this is what people see and therefore ascribe all sorts of accolades to him

but pleeze dont tell me he is a "great passer". just tell me he passes great FOR A PLAYER OF HIS SIZE. his bullet passes dont make him a great passer. there are many players who pass better than him.

and he is NOT a pass-first player. this is a fraudulant statement. he is a player who sought to maintain his 27ppg HIS WHOLE CAREER. he was a 7apg player on a bad cav team, and he was an 6.7apg player with the LOADED heat. that's the heat team that was in the top 5 in BOTH 2pt% and 3pt%. lebron is up there with the biggest gunners in nba history

he's one of the last goat players i'd ever give the ball to to close out a game. and as we all know how he wants to avoid the free throw line

and he had to wrangle his way to get his rings

[tdot_steel]

LeBron is the better all around player he was labeled a pass first guy but he does and always was a scores to a fault also he has longevity over Mj that is all MJ was the real deal had he had longevity like LeBron it would be a question MJ was the only goat since lebron had played 20 seasons he’s racked up every single individual accolades/achievement except dpoy it that a knock on him at all he’s a great great player all time great runner up to MJ i shame in that he can have 10 rings to MJ 6 he’s still not my goat for Various reasons such as ring chasing complaints about not having enough help when he’s the one who picked his teammates and then turns on them he rather cheat to win weather then beat the best players in the league like dude you can’t have all the best players on your team what fun is that he don’t care he thing’s getting more rings then MJ he’s the goat smh heck he thinks he should be loved by the millions and millions or ppl on planet earth shame on him he’s made the league watered down almost unwatchable at times he flops do dirty tactics at times he’s even got someone called for a fouls or technical foul then winks at the camera and suddenly his team wins the game nah bro you gotta beat the best not cheat

We are doing this again????

These Lebron stans have to give it up. Most did not watch MJ except on YouTube. I guarantee you anyone who has witnessed Lebron, Kobe and MJ play will tell you it isn't even close. MJ is the GOAT...just leave it alone.

I would rather people say Lebron is the best they have seen play, instead of anointing him as the GOAT.

I’ve witnessed all three and LeBron is the best player. Stating nonsense like “Again who watched both…” is not a real argument.

I don't know what to say then. You are entitled to your opinion. If you are going to watch MJ/Lebron play and tell me Lebron is the GOAT. Nuff said.

Like debating a Republican these days that Trump is a criminal and a racist. No matter how much evidence you present.......

[Nate505]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

Maybe in terms of stats, but the last time this subject was discussed, Jordan tends to win the GOAT arguments by a pretty comfortable margin, even here.

[druggas]

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

so then here's mine,,,apart from the stats.

what makes lebron everyone's favorite is the "package".

that is, the unimaginable size of the man with a complete skillset. i think of lebron as shaq-TYPE with a skillset, in that his biggest asset is his size. i think people find this amazing. even i think he's an amazing athlete. i think this is what people see and therefore ascribe all sorts of accolades to him

but pleeze dont tell me he is a "great passer". just tell me he passes great FOR A PLAYER OF HIS SIZE. his bullet passes dont make him a great passer

there are many players who pass better than him.

and he is NOT a pass-first player. this is a fraudulant statement. he is a player who sought to maintain his 27ppg HIS WHOLE CAREER. he was a 7apg player on a bad cav team, and he was an 6.7apg player with the LOADED heat. that's the heat team that was in the top 5 in BOTH 2pt% and 3pt%. lebron is up there with the biggest gunners in nba history

he's one of the last goat players i'd ever give the ball to to close out a game

and he had to wrangle his way to get his rings

That's a fact.

[tdot_steel]

10 scoring titles, 30.1ppg career average, both are records nobody in today's NBA can touch despite the ease of scoring today.

In the age of the 3pt shot and no hand checking...we still do not have anyone in today's game within 3 pts of MJ's career average. Amazing!!!

[tsherkin]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

the point being, as such 70% of the members were not there to viscerally experience the mj-effect,,,which neither numbers nor videos can explain

You did read the thread title, yes?

[twyzted]

1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.

James is undefeated in NCAA play.

Jordan is undefeeated in international play.
Infact Jordan made…
6 nba finals won all of them.
He made ncaa final and won.
Went to the olimpics 2 times won both.

So he is 9/9 when he made the final game/series.