What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[sol537]

6-0 in the finals. 6 finals MVP's.

/end thread

[fanofthegreats]

We are doing this again????

These Lebron stans have to give it up. Most did not watch MJ except on YouTube. I guarantee you anyone who has witnessed Lebron, Kobe and MJ play will tell you it isn't even close. MJ is the GOAT...just leave it alone.

I would rather people say Lebron is the best they have seen play, instead of anointing him as the GOAT.

I’ve witnessed all three and LeBron is the best player. Stating nonsense like “Again who watched both…” is not a real argument.

I don't know what to say then. You are entitled to your opinion. If you are going to watch MJ/Lebron play and tell me Lebron is the GOAT. Nuff said.

Like debating a Republican these days that Trump is a criminal and a racist. No matter how much evidence you present.......

. Great analogy, except you haven’t provided a shred of evidence. And there’s plenty of evidence both ways to make it an actual debate. When Jordan Stans go around claiming the argument for LeBron Lacks evidence, I already know they have no clue what they are talking about.

[Lalouie]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

the point being, as such 70% of the members were not there to viscerally experience the mj-effect,,,which neither numbers nor videos can explain

You did read the thread title, yes?

yes but i'm responding to the observation of the poster i'm quoting (hilited in red)

[MavsDirk41]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

Why dont you share this substantive data stuff with us

[Myth]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

I’m of the opinion that Jordan > LeBron and I also think the 6/6 argument is stupid af.

[Lockdown504090]

There isn't one.

Go watch this video and rethink.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The deeper you go the stronger michaels case is in terms of peak. If you have lebron #1, Mike shouldn’t even be second though, it should be Kareem

[SelfishPlayer]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several times without Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several times without Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

And Jordan never failed in the finals like James…in fact Jordan always played better in the finals compared to the regular season. Cant say that about James who was outplayed by Dirk and Wade in the 2011 finals….

[lakerz12]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And pippen did without Jordan . So Jordan needed pippen more than pippen needed Jordan

and Wade won a ring without LeBron. So LeBron needed Wade more than Wade needed LeBron.

[RoyceDa59]

Scoring.

MJ was the best scorer in NBA history.

Faster than everyone & could jump higher than anyone.

And had bigger hands than anyone.

With more determination than anyone.

Completely and utterly unstoppable with the ball in his hands.

[lakerz12]

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several times without Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

And Jordan never failed in the finals like James…in fact Jordan always played better in the finals compared to the regular season. Cant say that about James who was outplayed by Dirk and Wade in the 2011 finals….

Don’t forget Jason Terry.

[lakerz12]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

I’m of the opinion that Jordan > LeBron and I also think the 6/6 argument is stupid af.

And yet neither one of you explained why that argument is “stupid af”.

Of course it’s not definitive proof, but having a 100% winning percentage in the Finals compared to a 40% winning percentage says something.

When the entire thing these guys strive for is a championship, winning more of them should matter.

And Jordan didn’t have any Finals where he choked (see LeBron 2011).

He always delivered in the Finals.

How is that not a relevant argument?

Even if you eliminate “Finals” and just call it “Playoff appearances” —- Jordan still converted his Playoff appearances into 50% more championships than LeBron.

[Taj FTW]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

the point being, as such 70% of the members were not there to viscerally experience the mj-effect,,,which neither numbers nor videos can explain

Ok boomer

[Taj FTW]

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

Why dont you share this substantive data stuff with us

You wouldn't understand

[GSWFan1994]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this

When did this happen

Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.

[MavsDirk41]

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

Why dont you share this substantive data stuff with us

You wouldn't understand

You are attacking my intelligence you little clown?

Hey yo. Personal attacks are not allowed. Debate the post as strongly as you'd like but don't insult the poster himself. -b

[twyzted]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

While the Lebron board has some good posters it is also infested by Lebron stans. It has a dedicated thread for him???

And if we go and look at this very thread who was created by op himself… we get

Thread title what impact metrics show MJ as a GOAT candidate?

Do any?

My short answer is no.

So we get a guy arguing that there is no impact metric what so ever that shows Jordan as a GOAT CANDIDATE that is an avid poster on the board.

You might think that the quality is better over there then you start to read the comments and they are just a word salad praising Lebron.

Looking at the voters for the project, then i see that every single Jordan fan has been driven of the board.

[WarriorGM]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this

When did this happen

Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.

The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board.

[Myth]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

I’m of the opinion that Jordan > LeBron and I also think the 6/6 argument is stupid af.

And yet neither one of you explained why that argument is “stupid af”.

Of course it’s not definitive proof, but having a 100% winning percentage in the Finals compared to a 40% winning percentage says something.

When the entire thing these guys strive for is a championship, winning more of them should matter.

And Jordan didn’t have any Finals where he choked (see LeBron 2011).

He always delivered in the Finals.

How is that not a relevant argument?

Even if you eliminate “Finals” and just call it “Playoff appearances” —- Jordan still converted his Playoff appearances into 50% more championships than LeBron.

I agree with LeBron fans that losing in the Finals is better than losing before you get to the Finals. I agree with you that a higher percentage of winning championships in a given year is in MJ’s favor. Ultimately, I think the performances matter (both in the Finals and in other playoff series). I don’t blame MJ for losing to the Celtics because MJ was the best player that series, but Celtics just had a superior team to the Bulls. I likewise don’t blame LeBron for losing to the Warriors when he was the best player in the series but the Warriors as a team just was superior to LeBron’s. I do however blame LeBron for series when he should have been the best player but wasn’t (2011 Finals being the obvious example). There are no clear examples of MJ being outplayed for a series and that idea that he always steps up, is why I have him over LeBron.

[lakerz12]

LeBron fans are the only fans in all of sports who try to explain how having a losing record in the Finals doesn’t actually matter.

In the MLB, if one pitcher is 6-0 in the World Series, and another is 4-6…fans would unanimously say the 6-0 pitcher is more clutch.

In golf, if Tiger is 6-0 in Majors when leading after 54 holes, and another golfer is 4-6…everyone would say Tiger is more clutch.

But for some reason with LeBron, we’re supposed to believe that being 4-6 is actually equal or Better than being 6-0.

In golf and other games/sports, players like Greg Norman (albeit an all time great and for a period the #1 player in the world) are universally criticized for failing to win when it mattered.

He put himself in position to win multiple Masters (similar to the NBA Finals in importance), but failed to convert on Sunday.

No one says “well he deserves credit for putting himself in position to win” (for making the Finals).

No, Greg Norman is famous for being a great player but also for choking. No one gives him credit for leading after 54 holes.

LeBron is the only one who gets credit for going 90% of the way and then failing to convert.