What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[MavsDirk41]

Most of them arent even old enough to have watched Jordan

[ChillPill]

You can't really compare eras. The game has evolved, and the league gotten better, on the shoulders of past players. Kobe's accomplishments were on the shoulders of Jordans, for example.

At this point, the game has evolved so you can't just be a transcendent scorer and be the best player in the league. It's inefficient to have one guy do so much shooting. Kobe transplanted into today's league wouldn't be nearly as valuable as having a Jokic, who elevates his whole team and averages a triple double.

So, I don't know. For me, Bron does more things well than Mike or Kobe, which would translate better to the game today (which is the highest caliber version of the game that has existed). But the players now were influenced by the giants of the past.

[ClubLakers KB8]

I'll just say this, anyone using the 6/6 argument for Jordan better admit that the teams LBJ faced were FAR superior.

[Taj FTW]

LeBron fans are the only fans in all of sports who try to explain how having a losing record in the Finals doesn’t actually matter.

In the MLB, if one pitcher is 6-0 in the World Series, and another is 4-6…fans would unanimously say the 6-0 pitcher is more clutch.

In golf, if Tiger is 6-0 in Majors when leading after 54 holes, and another golfer is 4-6…everyone would say Tiger is more clutch.

But for some reason with LeBron, we’re supposed to believe that being 4-6 is actually equal or Better than being 6-0.

In golf and other games/sports, players like Greg Norman (albeit an all time great and for a period the #1 player in the world) are universally criticized for failing to win when it mattered.

He put himself in position to win multiple Masters (similar to the NBA Finals in importance), but failed to convert on Sunday.

No one says “well he deserves credit for putting himself in position to win” (for making the Finals).

No, Greg Norman is famous for being a great player but also for choking. No one gives him credit for leading after 54 holes.

LeBron is the only one who gets credit for going 90% of the way and then failing to convert.

And you must be the only fan that can't differentiate between team sports (basketball) and individual sports (golf) or quasi-individual sports (pitching in baseball). I mean, seriously? You aren't able to see the difference here? Just lol

[Taj FTW]

Most of them arent even old enough to have watched Jordan

Nobody here is old enough to remember watching Wilt's entire career. Therefore, nobody can say any player is better than Wilt. Rock solid logic.

[MavsDirk41]

I'll just say this, anyone using the 6/6 argument for Jordan better admit that the teams LBJ faced were FAR superior.

Yea you are correct. My Mavs in 2011 with one allstar and the injured Heat team in 2020 were both absolute power houses who made multiple consecutive trips to the finals…

[MavsDirk41]

Most of them arent even old enough to have watched Jordan

Nobody here is old enough to remember watching Wilt's entire career. Therefore, nobody can say any player is better than Wilt. Rock solid logic.

Maybe Wilt is the goat kid. Maybe Russell is the goat. I never watched them play but i did watch Jordan and James play and Jordan is better.

If you are gonna run your arrogant mouth on here about substansive data backing James over Jordan you better put it on here too.

[Myth]

I’m of the opinion that Jordan > LeBron and I also think the 6/6 argument is stupid af.

And yet neither one of you explained why that argument is “stupid af”.

Of course it’s not definitive proof, but having a 100% winning percentage in the Finals compared to a 40% winning percentage says something.

When the entire thing these guys strive for is a championship, winning more of them should matter.

And Jordan didn’t have any Finals where he choked (see LeBron 2011).

He always delivered in the Finals.

How is that not a relevant argument?

Even if you eliminate “Finals” and just call it “Playoff appearances” —- Jordan still converted his Playoff appearances into 50% more championships than LeBron.

I agree with LeBron fans that losing in the Finals is better than losing before you get to the Finals. I agree with you that a higher percentage of winning championships in a given year is in MJ’s favor. Ultimately, I think the performances matter (both in the Finals and in other playoff series). I don’t blame MJ for losing to the Celtics because MJ was the best player that series, but Celtics just had a superior team to the Bulls. I likewise don’t blame LeBron for losing to the Warriors when he was the best player in the series but the Warriors as a team just was superior to LeBron’s. I do however blame LeBron for series when he should have been the best player but wasn’t (2011 Finals being the obvious example). There are no clear examples of MJ being outplayed for a series and that idea that he always steps up, is why I have him over LeBron.

Additionally, give me Bill Russell’s record of 11-1 on the Finals and 11 rings in 13 seasons over MJ’s 6/6 all day every day. MJ’s 6/6 is extremely impressive and contributes to his case as GOAT, but it is a lazy argument that is quickly dismantled if used as the primary reason to justify him as GOAT.

[ClubLakers KB8]

I'll just say this, anyone using the 6/6 argument for Jordan better admit that the teams LBJ faced were FAR superior.

Yea you are correct. My Mavs in 2011 with one allstar and the injured Heat team in 2020 were both absolute power houses who made multiple consecutive trips to the finals…

Oh come on. No team MJ faced sniffs those Spurs or Warriors teams. That's all I'm saying.

[SelfishPlayer]

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several times without Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

And Jordan never failed in the finals like James…in fact Jordan always played better in the finals compared to the regular season. Cant say that about James who was outplayed by Dirk and Wade in the 2011 finals….

Don’t forget Jason Terry.

Lebron was 26 to start that season and was already on his second Finals appearance. Jordan had yet to go to the Finals at that age.

[MavsDirk41]

And Jordan never failed in the finals like James…in fact Jordan always played better in the finals compared to the regular season. Cant say that about James who was outplayed by Dirk and Wade in the 2011 finals….

Don’t forget Jason Terry.

Lebron was 26 to start that season and was already on his second Finals appearance. Jordan had yet to go to the Finals at that age.

Jordan played college ball at UNC and hit the winning shot to beat Georgetown in the national championship. He came into the league older….

[MavsDirk41]

I'll just say this, anyone using the 6/6 argument for Jordan better admit that the teams LBJ faced were FAR superior.

Yea you are correct. My Mavs in 2011 with one allstar and the injured Heat team in 2020 were both absolute power houses who made multiple consecutive trips to the finals…

Oh come on. No team MJ faced sniffs those Spurs or Warriors teams. That's all I'm saying.

The 2017/2018 Warriors yes. But Jordan never averaged 18 points per game in the finals too.

[SelfishPlayer]

Don’t forget Jason Terry.

Lebron was 26 to start that season and was already on his second Finals appearance. Jordan had yet to go to the Finals at that age.

Jordan played college ball at UNC and hit the winning shot to beat Georgetown in the national championship. He came into the league older….

That doesn't mean anything.

[ClubLakers KB8]

Yea you are correct. My Mavs in 2011 with one allstar and the injured Heat team in 2020 were both absolute power houses who made multiple consecutive trips to the finals…

Oh come on. No team MJ faced sniffs those Spurs or Warriors teams. That's all I'm saying.

The 2017/2018 Warriors yes. But Jordan never averaged 18 points per game in the finals too.

I'm sorry, but if you think the only superior Lebron opponent to any of MJ's is that Warriors team, you need a history lesson. Those Spurs teams that the Heat faced were insanely cohesive. The KD Warrior teams? The Spurs when LBJ was in Cleveland?

[VanWest82]

It isn't a reasonable ask to provide a data-driven MJ > Lebron GOAT argument because we don't have anywhere near the amount of data, in particular line up data, on MJ as we do Lebron.

The little bits of line up data we do have from thinking basketball and squared20 suggests MJ is elite, but it isn't definitive because the sample sizes are too small. And so we're left with Lebron fans asking this question and then when others shrug or provide accolade based arguments, it's viewed as MJ coming up short as appose to we just don't have the necessary info to compare them like that.

[Taj FTW]

It isn't a reasonable ask to provide a data-driven MJ > Lebron GOAT argument because we don't have anywhere near the amount of data, in particular line up data, on MJ as we do Lebron. Instead, we get stupid MJ left the Bulls and they made 2nd round arguments.

The little bits of line up data we do have from thinking basketball and squared20 suggests MJ is elite, but it isn't definitive because the sample sizes are too small. And so we're left with Lebron fans asking this question and then we others shrug or provide accolade based arguments, it's viewed as MJ coming up short as appose to we just don't have the necessary info to compare them like that.

I believe you mean when MJ left the Bulls, their record went from 57-25 to 55-27*. That is very noteworthy.

[IG2]

The 6-0 argument is for the simpletons. Usually touted by those who've clearly never seen him play beyond YT highlights and The Last Dance.

MJ is better than LeBron, but Finals record has nothing to do with it. As if MJ wouldn't have lost to the '07 Spurs, '14 Spurs and '15, '17 and '18 Warriors.

[Taj FTW]

The 6-0 argument is for the simpletons. Usually touted by those who've clearly never seen him play beyond YT, The Last Dance and whatever they've heard from SAS and Skip.

MJ is better than LeBron, but Finals record has nothing to do with it. As if MJ wouldn't have lost to the '14 Spurs and '17 and '18 Warriors.

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.

[VanWest82]

It isn't a reasonable ask to provide a data-driven MJ > Lebron GOAT argument because we don't have anywhere near the amount of data, in particular line up data, on MJ as we do Lebron. Instead, we get stupid MJ left the Bulls and they made 2nd round arguments.

The little bits of line up data we do have from thinking basketball and squared20 suggests MJ is elite, but it isn't definitive because the sample sizes are too small. And so we're left with Lebron fans asking this question and then we others shrug or provide accolade based arguments, it's viewed as MJ coming up short as appose to we just don't have the necessary info to compare them like that.

I believe you mean when MJ left the Bulls, their record went from 57-25 to 55-27*. That is very noteworthy.

Only an uneducated observer or someone with a very slanted bias would make that kind of lazy argument. It ignores:

1. Scottie and Horace gave, umm...sub-optimal effort in 93 and then had their best seasons as pros in 94 when given the chance to be leaders of the team.
2. 93 team was tired and old trying for a three-peat. Guys like Paxson and Cartwright were on their last legs.
3. 94 team was invigorated with Kukoc, Kerr, and Longley.
4. 95 Bulls were basically a .500 team until MJ came back and then won 72 games the next season once he was actually in shape.
5. We wouldn't put much credence in advanced plus/minus stuff over only one season in any other context, and yet for some reason games won is super noteworthy 93 vs. 94.

[IG2]

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.

Yep, those 2 seasons as well.