What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Capn'O]

During peak years the gap between MJ and his peers in catchall stats like PER and winshares was typically wider than LeBron's. I.e. he was the best of his era by a wider margin.

Generally, I think there's a strong argument statistically that he peaked higher and if you value peak over longevity, as I do, you would gravitate to that. Obviously there's no longevity argument.

[SelfishPlayer]

Why is load management a thing if sports science is so advanced today? Players should be playing more minutes per game, more games per season, and more seasons per career. The last one may be the only one that is happening, but possibly due to players entering the league earlier.

Because the science says injuries are lower when they do it this way, and you can get better overall longevity. There's been a downward trend in MPG since at least the 80s. In the 60s and much of the 70s, 40+ mpg was more the standard, and that eroded over the years. This is the end-point of a trend much older than recent sport science/analytics-driven advancements.

It looks like playing more minutes results in less severe injuries...

[SelfishPlayer]

You think Lebron winning with Anthony Davis is more impressive than Jordan winning with Pippen?

In 98 Pippen only played in 44 games, has a migraine in game 6, and during the playoffs averaged 17, 7, and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER.

In 2020 AD played in 62 games during a shortened 71 game season, and during the playoffs averaged 28, 10, and 4 on 66.5 TS%, 29.6 PER.

And I know that stats don’t capture defense, but AD was phenomenal defensively during that playoff run.

And if we’re going by data, I don’t think there’s any data that puts Pippen above Wade or AD.

There is, look at how many times Pippen went to the playoffs without Jordan. AD and Wade did a lot of losing without Lebron and Shaq. Pippen makes people better. You don't have much of a team without Wade or AD as your best player. They will probably sit out injured to get a better lottery pick

The thread was asking for data. He gave you the stats and you're throwing it out.

Besides, Wade already won as the #1 guy, Shaq was already a shell of himself. You don't have to belittle AD and Wade's career to prop up Lebron. DWade showed Lebron how to win a ring, not the other way around.

Wade wasn't the #1 guy no more than Harden was the #1 guy for the Sixers in the playoffs this year. It is Embiid's team as it was Shaq's team. Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh so he relinquished the team to Lebron.

[NZB2323]

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

You think Lebron winning with Anthony Davis is more impressive than Jordan winning with Pippen?

In 98 Pippen only played in 44 games, has a migraine in game 6, and during the playoffs averaged 17, 7, and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER.

In 2020 AD played in 62 games during a shortened 71 game season, and during the playoffs averaged 28, 10, and 4 on 66.5 TS%, 29.6 PER.

And I know that stats don’t capture defense, but AD was phenomenal defensively during that playoff run.

And if we’re going by data, I don’t think there’s any data that puts Pippen above Wade or AD.

There is, look at how many times Pippen went to the playoffs without Jordan. AD and Wade did a lot of losing without Lebron and Shaq. Pippen makes people better. You don't have much of a team without Wade or AD as your best player. They will probably sit out injured to get a better lottery pick

Pippen won 1 playoff series in 94 without Jordan, when he had Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Paxson, Cartwright, and Longley.

Wade won a championship without Lebron.

AD was fantastic in the 2018 playoffs, he swept Dame, he just couldn’t beat the KD Warriors.

06 Wade: 28, 6, and 6, 59.3 TS%, 26.9 PER
18 AD: 30, 13, and 2, 58.4 TS%, 25.8 PER
94 Pippen: 23, 8, and 5, 52.1 TS%, 22.8 PER

I guess you could say Pippen went to the WCF in 2000, but that’s kind of like saying Love went to the Finals in 2023.

Pippen lost in the first round in 99 with Hakeem and Barkley.

[HotRocks34]

I grew up watching BOTH Jordan and Lebron and I'm telling you the level of dominance Jordan had on the league was unprecedented. He dominated in every aspect of the game: scoring, defense, championship, hustle, team, longevity, etc.

Forget inflated stats man. You just got to witness the dominance. Lebron can't even do half of what Jordan did. Even in his prime, people were saying Kobe was better (which I still believe today). Then it was Giannis, then Curry, now Jokic. Y'know how many players were truly consider better than Jordan even in his late 30s? 1 ..... Karl Malone and even his mvp years were questionable since Jordan got the ring both years, and not just better on offense, but he was the best defensive player year in and year out. How many all defensive teams did Lebron have? Oh yeah 5. Jordan is tied for the highest record of 9 while being the most DOMINATE scorer in the league. In comparison to today's players, he does not only have the offensive dominance of Durant or Curry but the defensive presence of Smart and Tatum COMBINED.

You weren't there to witness the dominance. You will never understand. That is why you can only fall back on arbitrary numbers that don't tell the whole story.

Correct.

I was watching the league before Jordan, during Jordan and after Jordan.

No one matched what he did. Maybe some guys before my time, but not in the modern era.

When Jordan came around, Bird was touted as GOAT. Not temporary GOAT, THE GOAT. That's how things were trending.

MJ shifted the whole landscape. It's almost like Djokovic grabbing control of men's tennis from Federer and Nadal. Bird and Magic were the kings, and then suddenly this guy came in and just shoved everyone to the side.

LeBron is great, but it's not the same thing.

[tsherkin]

Why is load management a thing if sports science is so advanced today? Players should be playing more minutes per game, more games per season, and more seasons per career. The last one may be the only one that is happening, but possibly due to players entering the league earlier.

Because the science says injuries are lower when they do it this way, and you can get better overall longevity. There's been a downward trend in MPG since at least the 80s. In the 60s and much of the 70s, 40+ mpg was more the standard, and that eroded over the years. This is the end-point of a trend much older than recent sport science/analytics-driven advancements.

It looks like playing more minutes results in less severe injuries...

How about that, hey?

[baldur]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And pippen did without Jordan . So Jordan needed pippen more than pippen needed Jordan

You guys are serious?

[MavsDirk41]

There is, look at how many times Pippen went to the playoffs without Jordan. AD and Wade did a lot of losing without Lebron and Shaq. Pippen makes people better. You don't have much of a team without Wade or AD as your best player. They will probably sit out injured to get a better lottery pick

Wade won a championship and finals mvp in 06 lol what are you talking about? He was clearly the best player in the finals and probably the best player in the nba that year.

Shaq's team...

Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh. He relinquished the team to Lebron after failing.

Lol just stop man Wade was unbelievable in the 06 finals. Are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell lol

Did you watch the 2011 finals? Wade was great, your guy James not so much. Just take the L man

[HMFFL]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

That's very interesting that you fins going 6 for 6 in the Finals to be "stupid af"

So, how about other stats, and achievements?

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[kacey ring]

How many more years will this be debated?

Both are GOTTs to me! Greatest of their time !

[Lalouie]

cant be rings cuz russell has 11
cant be scoring cuz wilt was unmatched
cant be breadth of career because kareem has that wrapped up
cant be skillset because there are many and it's all subjective anyway
cant be longevity/consistancy because lebron has that

like any GOAT criteria it's ALL a matter of the visuals, which is subjective. people get wrapped up in the visuals

So you're picking and choosing categories but measuring who is the GOAT you have to have all the stuff you mentioned plus the actual dominance during your peak, MJ has all of that.

People can talk about player A or player B as the GOAT all they want. But for me, the true measure is how well you stacked up against your peers and your dominance in your era. Because those really all that we can see. We will never see prime MJ vs prime Lebron but we have seen the games of MJ against his peers as well as Lebron against his peers. Who truly dominated their era? Those are tangible things that can be measured. The rest is just speculation.

MJ dominated his era, he won 6 rings and denied a lot of HOFers from getting a ring. Lebron's era, would you say he was as dominant? Because he only ruled half the league, the East. He lost to the Mavs in 2011 as the favorite and he ran into the Spurs. The Warriors was unfair matchup, I'll give him that. But Lebron really didn't dominate his era if you want to compare him against his peers. That's really all we can measure. Everything else you can't.

i agree with you that players should be judged by their dominance in ther era.
but i wasnt picking or choosing. i threw all the stats out the window and basically i meant "the eye test" which is just another way of saying what you just said

i find it inconceivable that with all the computer data and analytics, no one has done a simple comparison based on what you just said.

that is for me .........
player versus the 5 or 10 of his time AND versus the league as a whole. this has always been my metric in these cross era discussions

[payton2kemp]

6 championships in 6 trips to Finals

So is it better to not make the finals and lose in the earlier rounds? If Lebron only made to four finals and won all four, would that be better?

4-6 looks bad, but its better than being 4-0 and losing before ever making it to the finals.

[durden_tyler]

6 championships in 6 trips to Finals

So is it better to not make the finals and lose in the earlier rounds? If Lebron only made to four finals and won all four, would that be better?

4-6 looks bad, but its better than being 4-0 and losing before ever making it to the finals.

No 4-6 IS bad, that's a career loser if i see one.

[hyper316]

Raw numbers comparison between eras is so misleading. Should be adjusted player ppg to average total points per game

[Taj FTW]

It's quite simple. Both were similarly dominant for their career. LeBron. Simply did it longer. If you put them in the exact same team for 20 years and want to maximize championships, LeBron is the obvious choice.

[Taj FTW]

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.

Yep, those 2 seasons as well.

Lol young james fan boys

Lol! Imagine thinking MJ faced better teams in the finals then the 07 Spurs or 15 Warriors. Lol MavsDirk, just lol.

[durden_tyler]

It's quite simple. Both were similarly dominant for their career. LeBron. Simply did it longer. If you put them in the exact same team for 20 years and want to maximize championships, LeBron is the obvious choice.

What maximize championships are you talking about? He couldn't deliver!

If you put Jordan on same timeline and length of LeBron, he'd have more than 6 championships. Heck if he did not get suspended and played baseball, realistic chance is that he would have had eight.

LeBron is a great, great player but just fell a bit short when compared to the GOAT. He can settle for #2, and that's okay LeBron fans.

[JRoy]

He sold a lot of sneakers.

[Taj FTW]

It's quite simple. Both were similarly dominant for their career. LeBron. Simply did it longer. If you put them in the exact same team for 20 years and want to maximize championships, LeBron is the obvious choice.

What maximize championships are you talking about? He couldn't deliver!

If you put Jordan on same timeline and length of LeBron, he'd have more than 6 championships. Heck if he did not get suspended and played baseball, realistic chance is that he would have had eight.

LeBron is a great, great player but just fell a bit short when compared to the GOAT. He can settle for #2, and that's okay LeBron fans.

Which of LeBron's teams would MJ win a championship with if you replaced LeBron with him? Durden, your arguments have been extremely weak tbh.

[Hitachi77]

There is no bigger stage than the NBA finals so it does mean something. Now Lebron has performed amazingly in some of those losses so you can’t just use how many losses, but some of the losses are inexcusable. Obviously Dallas matters, the biggest stage, the heavily favored team and just an awful performance. That matters.

Let’s go through the list:

2007: took an insane performance from LeBron to get to the finals, his team was overmatched in the finals

2011: I will give you this one of course, they lost to Dallas as a favorite.

2014: This one kind of a wash, they lost as a slight underdog.

2015: lost his 2nd and 3rd best players to injury, still took the Warriors to 6

2017-18: completely overmatched, KD Warriors

Jordan has won as a favorite every time, and lost as an underdog every time. LeBron has often won as an underdog, in many of those runs through the east, and a few times lost as a favorite.

That finals streak is an argument in Lebron’s favor, anyone saying anything otherwise is being silly or biased.

Overcame the Pistons that one series otherwise when were they an underdog and won? You used the word “often” during that weak LEastern Conference era? Warriors too, right? When Steph was dinged, Bogut was out as moron Draymond ’kicked’ the series to them? If you are going to call out the weakened state of the Cavs in 2015, then you must also recognize injury also helped deliver Lebron’s greatest achievement.

2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

2008: had the Celtics on the ropes with that scrub of a Cavs team

2012: they were underdogs vs the Thunder

2016: I’ll admit, this win it very overrated and talked about way too much, and was aided by injuries and suspensions, like you mentioned, but still worth a note

2018: they were underdogs vs the Raptors, can’t remember if they were underdogs vs the Celtics in the series, but they were in game 7