Magic waive F Bol Bol

[drsd]

Well, two as Kevon Harris under contract.

Summer League will be an audition for some on the roster and off as Harris was on another team's summer league roster last year.

I didn’t realize until right now that Kevon signed a two-year, two-way contract last summer.

Another good move by WeltHam.

K-Harris has that "Darrell Armstrong" vibe to him. K-Harris clearly wants-it and will do whatever is asked of him to stay in the league. Every team is better with such players.

[pepe1991]

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It's not that they couldn't have eked out value from these guys, they could've, I just find it hard to believe people care that much about a future 2nd round pick that we aren't going to use.

Unless people can find receipts of them saying trade Bol in November for some prime young guy or something.. then I think they let him either play himself on or off of the team. They afforded the same luxury to Goga and he made the team. What are we going to say we should trade Goga as well if he plays well in November?

Someone even posted this on Toronto board:

I wonder if there will be a 17 page thread on the Magic board about losing an "asset" for nothing.

Seems like a very common occurrence because of something called "hope". Masai is one of the better drafting GMs out there, OKC has Presti who just let Poku lose all of his value.. teams with stars have let them lose all value by trading them too late. People on this forum constantly forget about the human aspect of all of this where they want Bol to be good enough to stay but can't just trade him at his best or not give him a chance to play through struggles either.

Bamba's value was much higher than second roudn picks IF they had balls to trade him in second or third year. But matter of fact is- they don't and they didn't.


There is no human aspect invovled in business that requires teams to invest $140M into players.
Also there is very little sentiment involved in Bol's decision. Guy progressively lost PT, declined on court just to get fired. Only sentiment he could have would be resentment.

[SOUL]

Also there is very little sentiment involved in Bol's decision. Guy progressively lost PT, declined on court just to get fired. Only sentiment he could have would be resentment.

That's sort of my point though - unless the front office looks at it (very rare scenarios where teams have a young guy with 100% mindset of just flipping them as an asset) in a singular approach of "I don't care if Bol Bol plays like an all-star on both ends, he is getting traded the moment he looks amazing" - then naturally he will still play even when he starts struggling since he's still young and barely got minutes in his career to play through that.

Catch-22 is.. his value will start to tank if you play him when he struggles. Unrealistic to just not play him at all at the whiff of his first bad game. So the team is naturally letting him play through stuff and if his bad play continues it's hard to be like.. "Hey , nothing to see here, he is totally this guy that played great for 2 weeks, not the other stuff, trust me" and expect to get a lot. You would have to single-handedly acquire WITH the intent of flipping him 100% in their mind.

Like I said, I would prefer they get something too.. just don't think it would've been much because I don't think they acquired him to flip him like that, because most teams don't.

[fateis007]

a lot of overreaction over a bunch of scrubs and bol bol in here.

let's be honest. we are a small market team.

the only chance we have to keep our good players is to show them we arent going to move them around like pawns 4 weeks into the season, or do really random moves just to make them. they are obviously trying to build an ecosystem that people want to stay in.

this whole notion of trading bol bol, when he has this perceived value is silly, especially if they are trying the analyze the guy and what he is capable of. teams in the NBA aren't dumb, they know he isn't playing winning basketball. But this whole idea that it's common to sign a project, put him in the starting lineup, for a few weeks, him get injured, and then you get max value while he is commanding some huge trade possibilities is far fetched.

do i think the team could be more aggressive? yes. do I think there was some huge trade to happen for him, that would change our team (like net us a first round pick), that would outweight the bad look of trading him mid season. No.

But I also think them not treating everyone like ****, has allowed them to sign some team friendly deals because some of our guys want to actually be here. We literally couldn't lock up any of the big players in free agency this year. We got a 35 year old vet. Untill we make noise in the playoffs and become respectable again with our young talent (and hope they want to stay), we aren't commanding anything.

[jezzerinho]

.

It's not that they couldn't have eked out value from these guys, they could've, I just find it hard to believe people care that much about a future 2nd round pick that we aren't going to use.

Unless people can find receipts of them saying trade Bol in November for some prime young guy or something.. then I think they let him either play himself on or off of the team. They afforded the same luxury to Goga and he made the team. What are we going to say we should trade Goga as well if he plays well in November?

Someone even posted this on Toronto board:

I wonder if there will be a 17 page thread on the Magic board about losing an "asset" for nothing.

Seems like a very common occurrence because of something called "hope". Masai is one of the better drafting GMs out there, OKC has Presti who just let Poku lose all of his value.. teams with stars have let them lose all value by trading them too late. People on this forum constantly forget about the human aspect of all of this where they want Bol to be good enough to stay but can't just trade him at his best or not give him a chance to play through struggles either.

I could give a flying cràp about what team Bol is on, incl our own. I could give a cràp about the small return we probably would have gotten for him.

But i give a big cràp about the host of moves not made by this FO, each one arguably more or less important on their own, but collectively a blatant demonstration of inertia. Its a clear sign this FO doesnt know how to do business with other teams. They can more or less evaluate talent (much easier when the league keeps rewarding you for being bad), they can more or less manage the cap, they can more or less find coaches that suit what the team needs.

But these old farts can't grasp the concept of leveraging value or of taking risks to make more than incremental progress. This is a fundamental skill of a front office. The Miami Heat are a finalist almost exclusively thanks to this skill, but pretty much all other teams have it to some degree.

This tactic of keeping players/agents happy is very very convenient for a FO. No hard work, no confrontation, everybody feels nice and cozy. While we keep losing, naturally.

[eyriq]

Reading the Bol slander, seems he's lazy.

[pepe1991]

Some people don't understand problem with front office that buys high and sells low. Witch is... interesting , to say a least, hopefully you guys don't run own businesses

Hezonja-5th pick- turned into nothing
Payton-11th pick- turned into nothing
Bamba- 6th pick-turned into nothing
Hampton- part of trade for top 3 best previous player- vaiwed
Okeke-15th pick- soon to be turned into nothing
Bol- showed some life, was big story last year- vaiwed few months after for no return value
Ross- had value, asked for trade, wasn't traded at all
Evan- traded for exception ,that they forgot they had, so it expired


You can't keep investing high lottery picks and first round picks, let them rotten out ( due no PT, them sucking, or poor development) and after 4 years just get rid of them. Why not be proactive, see rookie sucks, and trade him midway through second year instad, when players DO still have value?


For crying out loud, Hennigan, for all hate he gets, traded for Afflalo in Dwight trade, boosted his value and traded him for Evan Fournier who nobody at that point heared of.
Hennigan also traded rental of JJ Reddick for Tobias Harris. Another clear trade W by Hennigan.

If that was up to this front office, Afflalo would get "friendly " 4 years contract and JJ Reddick would walk in FA because trades are hard.


This isn't about Bol Bol, it's about ever lasting inability to make decisions that could be viewed as "unpopular". Every year is evaluation year, minus that one where whole team imploded and asked for trades. 6 years and counting.

[SOUL]

The "inertia" was literally tearing down Vucevic-Fournier-Gordon era and devoting themselves entirely to a rebuild. That is huge in itself. That means, at minimum, 2-3 years of talent assessment and natural growth of our young players. Franz finished year 2, Suggs finished year 2, Paolo finished year 1, younger guys like Fultz, Cole and WCJ have shown where they stand with them right now too. It seems like the backcourt isn't fleshed out yet and is going to go through an overhaul over the next year. Nobody has signed an extension in the backcourt yet.

It's hypocritical to want that and say they're "kicking the can down the road" by not acquiring "x" young guy or not carving out 30 minutes for Black and Jett.. because guess what rookies do? They suck when it comes to affecting winning. They also kick the can down the road in terms of when you want to compete. They move the timeline further and further away from winning.

To me, the people completely fine with the "lack of inertia" have their finger on the pulse of the team the most at the moment. It's still a work in progress, their opinions change based on what moves or non-moves are made in the subsequent years of the rebuild (ie: 1st and 2nd years being obvious assessment years, this 3rd year being one of important decisions on the guards due to the draft (meaning having a plan for their pathway to play), while this next offseason seems like a prime time where the team gets enough chatter around the league as a place that has the draft capital and players to go for a star.

[djguevara114]

I didn’t realize until right now that Kevon signed a two-year, two-way contract last summer.

Another good move by WeltHam.

K-Harris has that "Darrell Armstrong" vibe to him. K-Harris clearly wants-it and will do whatever is asked of him to stay in the league. Every team is better with such players.

Been on this wagon since last year… My hope this off-season was that we created a spot to sign him to a Caleb Houstan type deal for 4 Years… This will be a player, if we don’t, that leaves and gets scooped up by Miami and we’re asking why we didn’t keep him…

[pepe1991]

Next year Magic players will be entering:
Fultz- 7th year
Wendell Carter- 6th year
M. Wagner- 6th year
Cole- 4th year
Suggs & Franz- 3rd year
Banchero- 2 year
Gary Harris -9th year
Isaac -7th year

pls don't give me this "young upcomming " BS excuses that roster is inexperienced.
Some of them are always hurt. But that has nothing to do with experience.


Memphis Grizzlies finished 2021-22 season ( year prior gangsta's pradise live- season ):
Ja Morant- 4th year
Desmond Bane 2th year
Brooks 5th year
Jackson 4th year

And won 56 games.

All this is nothing but creating nice cushion to fall onto excuses once Magic play yet another no-playoffs-season. And usual: injuries, age, too many rookie, experience etc excuse- cushions are already placed.

In reality, portion of fans just will defend every front office under any condition no matter how lazy or bad that front office is.


There is no excuses why Magic haven't traded one PG from cluster by now and there is no reason why they elected to not even attemp to be active during this offseason, when they had money. Instad, they Jeff- Greened- Mortiz Wagner and Joe Ingles.

For crying out loud, they couldn't even make decision on Bol, despite fact they had no roster space to keep him , like, literally, fans here figured it's impossible to not waive him at that point, but they didn't?

[jezzerinho]

Some people don't understand problem with front office that buys high and sells low. Witch is... interesting , to say a least, hopefully you guys don't run own businesses

Hezonja-5th pick- turned into nothing
Payton-11th pick- turned into nothing
Bamba- 6th pick-turned into nothing
Hampton- part of trade for top 3 best previous player- vaiwed
Okeke-15th pick- soon to be turned into nothing
Bol- showed some life, was big story last year- vaiwed few months after for no return value
Ross- had value, asked for trade, wasn't traded at all
Evan- traded for exception ,that they forgot they had, so it expired


You can't keep investing high lottery picks and first round picks, let them rotten out ( due no PT, them sucking, or poor development) and after 4 years just get rid of them. Why not be proactive, see rookie sucks, and trade him midway through second year instad, when players DO still have value?


For crying out loud, Hennigan, for all hate he gets, traded for Afflalo in Dwight trade, boosted his value and traded him for Evan Fournier who nobody at that point heared of.
Hennigan also traded rental of JJ Reddick for Tobias Harris. Another clear trade W by Hennigan.

If that was up to this front office, Afflalo would get "friendly " 4 years contract and JJ Reddick would walk in FA because trades are hard.


This isn't about Bol Bol, it's about ever lasting inability to make decisions that could be viewed as "unpopular". Every year is evaluation year, minus that one where whole team imploded and asked for trades. 6 years and counting.

Pepe, maybe we're being unfair. After all:

30ish win team
Stud PF
Center on the verge of breakout
Promising European SF
Bottom of league PG
Vet SG that should be upgraded
Well-regarded coach that players like

Oh, hang on - that's the 2016-17 season, after which WeltHam came in.

Wow, talk about progress since then!!!!!!

[SOUL]

It's not fun debating pepe anymore, his stat cherrypicking has gone beyond anything in his past

Guy just said "for all the hate Hennigan gets" like you weren't the #1 hater advocating against any sort of rebuild.

Yeah, they should totally trade rookies after 1st or 2nd year.. really would work out for Payton,, Hezonja and Bamba due to hindsight.. also would really work for someone like Dirk who struggled.. wait.. no.. Middleton? Oh ****, he actually got traded and that happened.. that worked out well for Detroit I bet. Oh.. wait.. Tobias Harris .. who we benefited from? Surely that was the right move for Milwaukee.

Damn, it's almost like people can GM really well 5-10 years down the line..

[SOUL]

Oh, hang on - that's the 2016-17 season, after which WeltHam came in.

Wow, talk about progress since then!!!!!!

You're fundamentally against rebuilding then, that's the issue. Not anything else. Just say it lol.

Also there are clearly two Weltham eras - the one where the owners want them to compete because of 5-6 years of failed Hennigan rebuild or the Weltham tear down because the owners realized what the non-casual fans already knew in that Fournier-Vuc-Gordon maxed out as a trio and made us at best a 8th seed.

Trying to combine the two as some 6 year rebuild is a distorting of facts that may work in politics but don't work in something in black and white as basketball where there are clear differences in an inherited team that was bad versus rebuilding from the ground up outside of their original draft picks.

[eyriq]

Releasing Bol seems to be a small landmark in our rebuild timeline.

On average a rebuild takes around 4-6 years. The steps are
1. Establish a clear identity and direction
2. Acquire a franchise player or players
3. Put a deep and balanced roster around the star(s)
4. Show the potential for playoff success

Moving on from a project like Bol is a tell that the rebuild is progressing. I think we are seeing clear signals that WeHam are moving into roster construction mode now.

[SOUL]

Also people have to start picking sides in what they mean by inertia and movement. I see quite a few opinions against the front office but they're of two differing opinions. What I hear from MagicMatic differs from what I hear from The_Effect differs from what I hear from pepe differs from what I hear from jezz.

It's either one of these two:

1. Trading players asap to make space and continue the rebuild in getting tons of minutes for rookies like Jett + Black even if it means being bad and having another pick next year, also moving on from the risk of extending guys people aren't as excited about as far as their future in Fultz + Cole

or

2. Consolidating players and going all in ASAP for S tier role guys or a 3rd star because Paolo and Franz are already set and there's a finite amount of years they can compete and surrounding them immediately means we're serious about competing. That meant moving our picks before the draft or still moving our young guys in a package + future picks for a perfect guy for the team.

It's very confusing to follow the logic on this board sometimes because people will agree in theory on something like inertia, yet be completely unaligned in terms of what that inertia is leading to. The people that seem to be in the middle are realistically more aligned with both of those arguments compared to the "make a move right now" crowd that has the team competing in entirely different times and having young guys either as the future or as trade chips.

[jezzerinho]

Oh, hang on - that's the 2016-17 season, after which WeltHam came in.

Wow, talk about progress since then!!!!!!

You're fundamentally against rebuilding then, that's the issue. Not anything else. Just say it lol.

Also there are clearly two Weltham eras - the one where the owners want them to compete because of 5-6 years of failed Hennigan rebuild or the Weltham tear down because the owners realized what the non-casual fans already knew in that Fournier-Vuc-Gordon maxed out as a trio and made us at best a 8th seed.

Trying to combine the two as some 6 year rebuild is a distorting of facts that may work in politics but don't work in something in black and white as basketball where there are clear differences in an inherited team that was bad versus rebuilding from the ground up outside of their original draft picks.

I wouldnt take that post too literally. It was just a bit of fun!

[SOUL]

I wouldnt take that post too literally. It was just a bit of fun!

I feel like I'm more aligned with people on a lot of "issues" regarding the team than people think, I'm just way more patient about it.

I am legitimately curious about how people view the future of the team because it's interesting to me to see a lot of aligned statements that also have differing outcomes (like the post I kinda did above) - it just feels like different things are being argued from similar POVs so from someone who considers themselves more neutral in terms of having a preference of where the trades right now should happen, it gets confusing.

[SOUL]

Also I'm not mad at you pepe ( ).. I just cannot handle you defending Hennigan after debating you so many years on him (although my mind obviously changed on Hennigan once he made dumbass trades negating the good trades he did)

[pepe1991]

It's not fun debating pepe anymore, his stat cherrypicking has gone beyond anything in his past

Guy just said "for all the hate Hennigan gets" like you weren't the #1 hater advocating against any sort of rebuild.

Yeah, they should totally trade rookies after 1st or 2nd year.. really would work out for Payton,, Hezonja and Bamba due to hindsight.. also would really work for someone like Dirk who struggled.. wait.. no.. Middleton? Oh ****, he actually got traded and that happened.. that worked out well for Detroit I bet. Oh.. wait.. Tobias Harris .. who we benefited from? Surely that was the right move for Milwaukee.

Damn, it's almost like people can GM really well 5-10 years down the line..

No worries, we can go back and see your Elfrid Payton evluation to see your ability to judge talent



As far as cherrypicking and trying to bul*** your way out of serious conversation goes:
Brings Middelton into conversation- conveniently ignores guy was 39th pick
Brings Dirk into conversation- conveniently "forgets" part when i said no reason to wait for bad rookie for more than year and half or two- Dirk scored 15 or more points 13 times in first 20 games of second season

Brings Tobias Harris in conversation- conveniently forgets guy who traded him out was non other than John Hammond


But will also be quick to tell you it's Hammond's elite drafting that secured Giannis ( and again, conveniently forget to mention all other fiascos, 0 playoff series won 2007- present day etc)

Very...conveniently!

I'm not "mad" at you, i just don't understand why you elect to fart sunshine and rainbows over every front office and every move, when it's clear Magic should have done more this year and there is no reason why are we in situation to have 4 PGs on roster with investments such are 16th pick,6th pick, 5th pick and guy who starts over them isn't even their draft bust, happends to be overpayed backup and is UFA

[VFX]

This isn't about Bol Bol, it's about ever lasting inability to make decisions that could be viewed as "unpopular". Every year is evaluation year, minus that one where whole team imploded and asked for trades. 6 years and counting.

This.

I don’t care about Bol or Bamba, etc. and low value players not getting a return WHEN they are traded.

The point being made in this thread is the WHEN part. Yeah no **** Bamba and Bol were traded for absolutely nothing. They were traded WHEN they weren’t getting minutes.

The same could be said about Fournier, Ross, etc.

50% of this board knew the writing was on the wall and I’m now told they were looking for suitors during the draft???

Why? So a lucky team could get a guy that looked like **** for the last 4 months ? Should have moved him WHEN he was the talk of the town and Orlando had Mortiz playing starters minutes for some reason.