Magic waive F Bol Bol

[SOUL]

[
No worries, we can go back and see your Elfrid Payton evluation to see your ability to judge talent
Very...conveniently!

I think your Elfrid quota has been reached this week

Your perfect GM just simply doesn't really exist though. Not in any current NBA team. Maybe soccer or another league? Nobody just gives up on young players that take more time because of how they performed their first or middle of second year, and gets the perfect amount of value for them. May happen rarely, but it's not some gold standard that Weltham is the only one not attaining.

Went on Raptors forum, saw debate about Masai's "return on value", went on Knicks board, saw debate on giving away Obi Toppin for nothing.. went on Bucks board, saw debate on extending aging team.. went on GS board, see debates on whether they should've moved from Moody/Kuminga already or not, go to OKC board, they're confused about guard glut and having Chet and Jaylin as the only real bigs on the team. Saw Pacers, Jazz, Rockets fans concerned about Toppin maybe blocking Jarace, Amen's fit with the guards there, Collins playing in front of Hendricks. It's not that those complaints there or here isn't valid, it's just that it's not like they're doing something entirely different. Just team's timelines and rosters are in different stages.

[basketballRob]

If the Magic want a sustainable team, they won't consolidate a bunch of assets for one star. Remember the Spurs? They had one max player? Duncan. Then they surrounded him with a bunch of good players. Manu and Tony Parker were in between the MLE and the max. Kawhi didn't get a max contract either.

Stay away from overrated players like Tobias Harris.







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[T-Cat]

Anyone noticed why Bol Bol didn't have an exit interview at the end of the season?

IMO, him not having that interview was a red flag of him not being a Magic man in the future! We need answers, but our front office is never transparent with the fans!

[eyriq]

Also people have to start picking sides in what they mean by inertia and movement. I see quite a few opinions against the front office but they're of two differing opinions. What I hear from MagicMatic differs from what I hear from The_Effect differs from what I hear from pepe differs from what I hear from jezz.

It's either one of these two:

1. Trading players asap to make space and continue the rebuild in getting tons of minutes for rookies like Jett + Black even if it means being bad and having another pick next year, also moving on from the risk of extending guys people aren't as excited about as far as their future in Fultz + Cole

or

2. Consolidating players and going all in ASAP for S tier role guys or a 3rd star because Paolo and Franz are already set and there's a finite amount of years they can compete and surrounding them immediately means we're serious about competing. That meant moving our picks before the draft or still moving our young guys in a package + future picks for a perfect guy for the team.

It's very confusing to follow the logic on this board sometimes because people will agree in theory on something like inertia, yet be completely unaligned in terms of what that inertia is leading to. The people that seem to be in the middle are realistically more aligned with both of those arguments compared to the "make a move right now" crowd that has the team competing in entirely different times and having young guys either as the future or as trade chips.

Nailed it. Great way to put it.

To further the thought process behind trading players to free up PT for the rookies, I'll point out that Suggs, Jett, and Black are all potential rising stars. Ensuring that they have meaningful roles is essential to paving a path for their development. It's a future value play.

You can do this without setting back the rebuild because we've identified two franchise players already and they will lead us to wins.

I want to see a path cleared sooner rather than later. I think the window is still open but I'll join the inertia crowd as soon as real games are played with Black out of position or out of the rotation.

I honestly don't think these decisions are hyper critical to the success of the rebuild though, as finding Paolo and Franz are enough. Getting a third star out of Suggs, Black, or Jett would just be icing on the cake. To me it would just indicate that WeHam have serious flaws.

[jezzerinho]

I wanna be clear on my feelings regarding 1) how an FO should move and 2) what we should be doing to get better

1) "We're not goint to rush anything" keeps getting spouted like its a positive. It's not. It might be the inevitable consequence of following a specific long term plan, but theres nothing great in itself about puting off getting better to a future date.

The argument I keep getting against teams consolidating and/or leveraging assets is a list of the times that went wrong for teams. Ignoring that its the modus operandi of the entire league, so you better be good at it or you are, BY DEFINITION, not a good FO.

An FO needs to recognise the moment that the value for a non-core asset has peaked for the team, but where there's still value on that player in the eyes of the league. If that asset is not core amd there are better/competing options for that player on the team or in the proposed trade, you should move the player. When both buying and selling, you need to take advantage of information and/or value mismatches. Irrespective of what point you're at with your team, this is a fundamental aspect of building a winner.

Being "loyal" has fairly little weight in the NBA. The "players will want to come to the Magic" line is wishful thinking. Agents get paid more whwn players move than when they stand still, so dont believe for a second the liyalty card is a big one for them. Who got paid more the last 5 years, Harden's agent or Lillard's agent?

A good FO, as soon as they recognise they have potential star pieces (which are the cornerstone of any title bid), they need to design a team that will maximise that potential and do it asap. I dont deny that design might include signing no vet starters and doing it all through the draft/bench vets. But as a plan it seems pretty unlikely to work, for reasons of inexperience and future cap glut.

2) What i would have done, as soon as I realised last Xmas that we had 2 potential stars:
I would have used some of Fultz/Suggs/Cole/Harris/Isaac/WCJ/#6/#36/future picks to bring in a vet guard, who will teach our team how to win and play playoff BB. This player would need to have max 3 years remaining (excl team options), so if we had to we could get out from under it before the two max deals coincide.

Paul George would cost a ton, be a huge risk healthwise and will want a big extension. But if we really only are worried about the next 2/3 years to "level-up" our young guys by sharing the court with maybe the most well-rounded guard/forward in the league, I fornone would pay that price. Why? Because i know why im doing it, i know that we cant have more high-pick rooks, i know that if we become a playoff team as we expect we wont have lottery picks, so future picks will be worth less, i know what i have in Fultz/Cole/WCJ/Isaac/Houstan/Harris et al and so i dont habe to worry too much about a Hennigan/Oladipo situation.

George is just one name. There are many other guys we could discuss. But my plan would be to get in a reasonably-priced star on a short deal who can establish a winning culture into a loser team, before the max deals kick in.

[Knightro]

pls don't give me this "young upcomming " BS excuses that roster is inexperienced.
Some of them are always hurt. But that has nothing to do with experience.

Memphis Grizzlies finished 2021-22 season ( year prior gangsta's pradise live- season ):
Ja Morant- 4th year
Desmond Bane 2th year
Brooks 5th year
Jackson 4th year

And won 56 games.

Generally speaking, how "young" or how "old" a team is considered is directly tied to their best players.

The Magic's two best players are heading into Year 2 and Year 3, so they're considered a young team.

[VFX]

Also people have to start picking sides in what they mean by inertia and movement. I see quite a few opinions against the front office but they're of two differing opinions. What I hear from MagicMatic differs from what I hear from The_Effect differs from what I hear from pepe differs from what I hear from jezz.

It's either one of these two:

1. Trading players asap to make space and continue the rebuild in getting tons of minutes for rookies like Jett + Black even if it means being bad and having another pick next year, also moving on from the risk of extending guys people aren't as excited about as far as their future in Fultz + Cole

or

2. Consolidating players and going all in ASAP for S tier role guys or a 3rd star because Paolo and Franz are already set and there's a finite amount of years they can compete and surrounding them immediately means we're serious about competing. That meant moving our picks before the draft or still moving our young guys in a package + future picks for a perfect guy for the team.

It's very confusing to follow the logic on this board sometimes because people will agree in theory on something like inertia, yet be completely unaligned in terms of what that inertia is leading to. The people that seem to be in the middle are realistically more aligned with both of those arguments compared to the "make a move right now" crowd that has the team competing in entirely different times and having young guys either as the future or as trade chips.

Where is the third option where you want the front office to retain good value on their backups while getting a majority of the minutes for the rookies? Yes, option 1 is ideal. I just don’t think a guy like Bol is going to be added into a situation like option 2 long term.

Every team needs good role players that are able to contribute in playoff situations at some point. Take a look at a guy like Bruce Brown for example. You trade guys like Bol or Bamba that aren’t going to get minutes in a current rotation for guys like that. Not absolutely nothing.

Džanan Musa was traded for Brown before he linked up with Denver and became integral to their championship run. Now he’s inking a ridiculous contract. Weltman will never find those players with how he operates. That’s the point.

It’s the same thing with the second round picks. It’s the lack of effort being placed on when these decisions matter. Are guys like MCW, Schoe, Mortiz, Harris, Okeke, and the corpse of Isaac all more important roster spots than finding extra value elsewhere in trades or draft? I don’t know, but you’ll never know the difference if they don’t try.

It will be exactly the same story when the FO chooses to find trade value for other assets AFTER bigger deals are extended. Windows come and go with indecision and time passes by what could have been better value.

[Optimus_Steel]

People act like you can trade players like a stock on an app whenever you want. It doesn't work that way. The Magic got Bol for essentially nothing and saw that he had some potential at one point and it wouldn't make sense to trade him, it made better sense to keep him and see if he is for real or not but you have to wait out to make the proper determination. There were some signs that his effectiveness could be more flash than substance. Then he got sick with covid and missed a stretch of games in Jan and when he returned he was not the same except for games he went all out against his old Den team, which was around the trade deadline time. Feels like the Magic gave him a shot to sort things out but he was not able to, whether that's physical and/or mental idk, and I don't have a problem with the front office waiting him out thru the season.

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[pepe1991]

[
No worries, we can go back and see your Elfrid Payton evluation to see your ability to judge talent
Very...conveniently!

I think your Elfrid quota has been reached this week

Your perfect GM just simply doesn't really exist though. Not in any current NBA team. Maybe soccer or another league? Nobody just gives up on young players that take more time because of how they performed their first or middle of second year, and gets the perfect amount of value for them. May happen rarely, but it's not some gold standard that Weltham is the only one not attaining.

Went on Raptors forum, saw debate about Masai's "return on value", went on Knicks board, saw debate on giving away Obi Toppin for nothing.. went on Bucks board, saw debate on extending aging team.. went on GS board, see debates on whether they should've moved from Moody/Kuminga already or not, go to OKC board, they're confused about guard glut and having Chet and Jaylin as the only real bigs on the team. Saw Pacers, Jazz, Rockets fans concerned about Toppin maybe blocking Jarace, Amen's fit with the guards there, Collins playing in front of Hendricks. It's not that those complaints there or here isn't valid, it's just that it's not like they're doing something entirely different. Just team's timelines and rosters are in different stages.

Okey, few things

1) I was very vocal Hennigan hater when he was still GM. I thought he started well inicially, than wracked whole team by making mistake after mistake. In search from old posts, i figured i spent 20 pages arguing how Harris trade was bad . So many people were supporting trade and called Harris garbage

As for ripping apart notion Hennigan is "good", there is 7 years old post about my feelings about Hennigan, in moment he was Magic General Menager





Second. There is no such thing as perfect GM.
We all make mistakes. But we should learn from previous ones.
Hammond and Weltman are doing same things since the day they joined Orlando Magic. They keep players who they drafted/signed /Traded for high, until a moment those players lose all PT and by default, lose all value they may had in past.

Convesations, debates and logial back and forths are normal thing on basketball forums, much like any other not-insaine-people's-nests places (hello reddit).
Some of those arguments are valid ( Collins/Hendricks), some are not ( Obi being Mo Bamba of Knicks and never actually playing, nor being good when he plays, UFA next year, 25, no upside ...).

But that's not a point. We as fans are there to talk about stuff, things we like, don't like, things we agree or disagree. HOWEVER. When it comes to current tennure and front office, i flat out can't be anything but suspicius about their ability to build even 48 wins roster, let alone contender.

Because we now had 2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20, 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23 seasons (6 total) and we sit at 37% win rate despite only activlly tanking - once. Even if you remove that 22-60 season out of existence, after 5 years of not tanking- their cumulative record would make us - 39% wins team.

Free agencies come. Free agencies go. Our praised FAs over 6 years regardless of how much money we have or don't have are:
Jonathan Simmons- out of nba after us
Al Faruq Aminu- out of nba after us
Joe Ingles- probably out of nba after us

In mean time we had:
6th pick -2017
6th pick -2018
15th pick- 2019
16th pick -2020
5th pick- 2021
8th pick- 2021
1st pick- 2022
6th pick 2023
11th pick 2023


Grand total of 7 lottery picks.

Yet years and years after taking over ( entering their 7th year) , after 7 lottery picks invested - 2023-24 openinig lineup will include:
PG who they didn't drafted
SG- who they didn't drafted
C- who they didnt' drafted

While bench will include: 6th pick (2017) , 5th pick from 2021, 15th pick from 2020, 6th pick from 2022, 11th pick from 2023 and maybe, if he ever returns 6th pick from 2017.

And after all those yeras of selecting in lottery, we are ... projected fringe playoff team. Maybe?!

This front office, 2017- present day, drafted in lottery each and every year minus two ( 4 out of 6).

And it's not like their previous jobs give me faith of bright future. Hammond never passed first round as GM in his entire career (16 years and counting).
Weltman... was praised for..:Raptors bench... Vleet and Siakam? Okey. That's something.Still, Raptors only made good decisions once he wasn't there and won only championship once finally somebody got some balls to be more than perrennial Lebron's bi*** in playoffs every year.
One thing that isn't arguable, however, is that many teams find better mid first round, or even in second round or even when draft is over, than our front office can find within top 16 selectoins. What's not arguable is fact that they just delite second round picks out of existence and don't even bother. What's not arguable is fact that they called 2017 draft flattend after 25th pick, while Kuzma, Derrick white and Josh Hart were selections after it. What's not arguable is fact that they rushed Isaac's resign without any logic behind it just to be stuck with his dead salary for years. What's not arguable is fact that they didn't want to rebuild on their own, it was something that turned into only option that would keep their jobs.

And what's also not arguable is their chidlish "mistique" behavior and is probably one of reasons why they find trades "hard" and why you are locking trade thread 5 days into a offseason. Because they don't do anything but bare minimum required.

[eyriq]

I asked ChatGPT for a pepe for dummies translation:

1/3: Ex-#OrlandoMagic GM Hennigan wasn't perfect, but the current leadership - Hammond and Weltman - repeat the same mistakes, keeping high-value players until they lose it all. Even with multiple lottery picks, they struggle to build a contender, with only a 37% win rate across 6 seasons.

2/3: Their top free agents haven't fared well post-Magic, and despite 7 lottery picks over their tenure, the team's opening lineup in 2023-24 will feature none of their drafted players. After years of drafting in the lottery, we're still projected to be just a fringe playoff team.

3/3: Hammond and Weltman's past successes don't inspire confidence, and their tactics, like ignoring second-round picks and rushing player resignings, have hurt the team. Their approach and lack of transparency make trades challenging and foster mistrust.

[tiderulz]

If the Magic want a sustainable team, they won't consolidate a bunch of assets for one star. Remember the Spurs? They had one max player? Duncan. Then they surrounded him with a bunch of good players. Manu and Tony Parker were in between the MLE and the max. Kawhi didn't get a max contract either.

Stay away from overrated players like Tobias Harris.

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got it. so we get our 1st ballot HOF player and then get borderline HOF role players.


i get your point, but few teams are able to get the players to adopt that mindset. Where you take just a little less and there is more money to go around to build a winning team. Players today want the max first, and then if they cant win they want a trade. but getting that max is first priority

[basketballRob]

If the Magic want a sustainable team, they won't consolidate a bunch of assets for one star. Remember the Spurs? They had one max player? Duncan. Then they surrounded him with a bunch of good players. Manu and Tony Parker were in between the MLE and the max. Kawhi didn't get a max contract either.

Stay away from overrated players like Tobias Harris.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

got it. so we get our 1st ballot HOF player and then get borderline HOF role players.


i get your point, but few teams are able to get the players to adopt that mindset. Where you take just a little less and there is more money to go around to build a winning team. Players today want the max first, and then if they can win they want a trade. but getting that max is first priority

Harris isn't a first ballot hall of famer. The guy has never been able to play defense. He had some good shooting percentages, but so did players like Brogdon. Is Malcolm Brogdon a first ballot hall of fame player?

The current joke is that the Philly fans want to trade him for a cookie. They watch him every game.

Aaron Gordon is in the hall of fame before Tobias

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[pepe1991]

Also people have to start picking sides in what they mean by inertia and movement. I see quite a few opinions against the front office but they're of two differing opinions. What I hear from MagicMatic differs from what I hear from The_Effect differs from what I hear from pepe differs from what I hear from jezz.

It's either one of these two:

1. Trading players asap to make space and continue the rebuild in getting tons of minutes for rookies like Jett + Black even if it means being bad and having another pick next year, also moving on from the risk of extending guys people aren't as excited about as far as their future in Fultz + Cole

or

2. Consolidating players and going all in ASAP for S tier role guys or a 3rd star because Paolo and Franz are already set and there's a finite amount of years they can compete and surrounding them immediately means we're serious about competing. That meant moving our picks before the draft or still moving our young guys in a package + future picks for a perfect guy for the team.

It's very confusing to follow the logic on this board sometimes because people will agree in theory on something like inertia, yet be completely unaligned in terms of what that inertia is leading to. The people that seem to be in the middle are realistically more aligned with both of those arguments compared to the "make a move right now" crowd that has the team competing in entirely different times and having young guys either as the future or as trade chips.

You are missing the point.

Both decisions are just that- decisions. Both have pros and cons but require commitment to a process. Fans may or may not like or agree with them, but are path setting for future.


What makes no sense , what is spineless , gutless cowardness is to run back exect same roster without any clear pathway to make pass first round but also makes no clear pathway for rookies to play.

And all that is done for one reason and one reason only- to avoid make decisions, in fear of mistake.


But no matter how much they stale this:
2024 free agency says:
Markelle Fultz- unrestricted FA
Cole Anthony- restricted FA
Franz Wagner- eligiable for designed max contract
Jonathan Isaac- expiring contract
Chuma Okeke- restricted FA
Gary Harris- unrestricted FA


So there is no running away from decisions. Whole thing was done for one reason and one reason only. To buy them time to not make any- decisions.

[basketballRob]

If Aaron Gordon had been in Philly instead of Tobias the last few years, they already have a championship.

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[HighPack]

If Aaron Gordon had been in Philly instead of Tobias the last few years, they already have a championship.

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[tiderulz]

If the Magic want a sustainable team, they won't consolidate a bunch of assets for one star. Remember the Spurs? They had one max player? Duncan. Then they surrounded him with a bunch of good players. Manu and Tony Parker were in between the MLE and the max. Kawhi didn't get a max contract either.

Stay away from overrated players like Tobias Harris.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

got it. so we get our 1st ballot HOF player and then get borderline HOF role players.


i get your point, but few teams are able to get the players to adopt that mindset. Where you take just a little less and there is more money to go around to build a winning team. Players today want the max first, and then if they can win they want a trade. but getting that max is first priority

Harris isn't a first ballot hall of famer. The guy has never been able to play defense. He had some good shooting percentages, but so did players like Brogdon. Is Malcolm Brogdon a first ballot hall of fame player?

The current joke is that the Philly fans want to trade him for a cookie. They watch him every game.

Aaron Gordon is in the hall of fame before Tobias

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

no, i agree to stay away from Harris.

[SOUL]

How'd this thread turn into Aaron Gordon and the hall of fame

[JoshuaPotter]

Glad it happened.

For those that think we could have traded high for Bol bol....maybe, maybe not.

I am of the opinion that if we say Fultz making 3pts for 1 year isn't good enough then Bol-Bol playing well for a month and a half and increasing his value is as or more unlikely.

The Bollercoster was fun. I admit it. I move on. It will be interesting to see if anyone picks him up and what they do with him. If its bench 3rd string or not in the NBA. You have your answer to his ascertained value.

[fendilim]

Good move for both sides. bol bol has enough time still to find a new team if someone is interested in signing him.

I dont think his value was ever high though. I think his entertainment value is high, but teams dont make trades based on entertainment, imo. At the end of the day, as harsh as it sounds, bolbol is just a number. Style points dont give you a better stat. Moreso, 2-3months of entertainment, but still end up with a 5-20 record means he didnt contribute to winning at all.

Wins is only thing that matters in this league.

[JoshuaPotter]

Good move for both sides. bol bol has enough time still to find a new team if someone is interested in signing him.

I dont think his value was ever high though. I think his entertainment value is high, but teams dont make trades based on entertainment, imo. At the end of the day, as harsh as it sounds, bolbol is just a number. Style points dont give you a better stat. Moreso, 2-3months of entertainment, but still end up with a 5-20 record means he didnt contribute to winning at all.

Wins is only thing that matters in this league.

I am confident that there is a lot that happens behind the scenes. My logic is simple.

He lost out to Mo Wagner. Who is in my opinion a 3rd stringer. Dude just puts in effort on both sides of the floor.