What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[The-Power]

6-0 in the finals. 6 finals MVP's.

/end thread

Bill Russell: 11 titles, has the FMVP award named after him. GOAT.

/end thread

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.

James is undefeated in NCAA play.

He is also winless.

Gee. I didn't know that. Thanks.

[OdomFan]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Yea, like how dare the Bulls front office actually do their jobs by putting good players around their star to improve? this silliness should really stop some day. It's a team game. Jordan was the leader of that team. That is why he will always get the most credit for that teams success.

[Roger Murdock]

He played in 38 playoff series

In 34 he was clearly the best player, in the other 4 he was arguably and still probably the best player
(rookie year vs Moncrief, second year vs Bird, 95 v Shaq, 96 v Kemp)

[Wingy]

Ahh yes, Jordan played in only 6 NBA seasons and won a championship every year.

Yup and he definitely could’ve went 8/8 if he didn’t retire to dominate baseball too.

I guess it's better to be 4-20 jumping around to different teams, while draining all their assets to build a contender, desperately chasing rings and stats to self proclaim yourself as the GOAT

Lebron with all his greatness still felt forced to jump from team to team to try to win rings.

All sorts of Lebron supporters poo poo it, and will talk like 6 rings and 6 for 6 doesn’t really matter.

Well, by his actions, it pretty clearly matters to Lebron. Jordan’s shadow hung over Lebron’s entire career, dictated his choices and behavior, and yet Lebron still fell short.

[AussieCeltic]

Shaq's team...

Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh. He relinquished the team to Lebron after failing.

Lol just stop man Wade was unbelievable in the 06 finals. Are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell lol

Did you watch the 2011 finals? Wade was great, your guy James not so much. Just take the L man

2011 Finals the one where Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh to a championship so he gave the team to Lebron from that point forward so that he could win a championship not as the main guy similar to when Shaq lead the Heat to the championship?

Stop it… you’re making yourself look like a fool with dishonest conversation.

In 2006, Wade was finals MVP averaging 35/8/4. Shaq was a shell of himself averaging 14/10.

2011 Wade failed you say? Pretty sure it was Lebron who averaged only 18/7/6..

Wade was easily Miamis best with 26/7/5.

Lebron had possibly the worst finals game for a in their prime superstar scoring a measly 8 points on 3/11 shooting in a game they only lost by 3.

[Marrrcuss]

I am a bron stan who has no issue with someone feeling Mike is the goat.

I just think the finals record as proof is stupid af.

That's very interesting that you fins going 6 for 6 in the Finals to be "stupid af"

So, how about other stats, and achievements?

He has soooo much to choose from. Picking a team achievement says more about the GM than him.

[KrAzY3]

6-6 in the Finals to lebron’s 4-6.
6 FMVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
5 MVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
10 Scoring Titles to Lebron’s 1.
30.1 PPG Career Scoring Avg to Lebron’s 27.2
1 DPOY to Lebron’s 0.
Higher Career PER than Lebron.
Better Career Defensive Rating than Lebron.
Higher Career Box Plus/Minus than Lebron.
Higher Career Win Shares/48 than Lebron.
1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.
2 NCAA Player of the Year Awards to Lebron’s 0.

Lebron has longevity, but that’s about it. Jordan had the greater peak and accomplished more in less time.

He also didn’t lose a single Finals series or even let one go to a Game 7, whereas Lebron has not only lost 6, but lost 2 where his team was favored (would’ve been 3 if not for Ray Allen), including 2011 where he completely disappeared in the Finals. No disrespect to Dirk, but the Mavs had no business winning that series. If Lebron even just plays average, Miami wins comfortably. But he completely disappeared that Finals, particularly down the stretch of games. And this was in his prime, mind you.

Here's another one...

Jordan never lost a playoff series his team was favored in. So basically if he had the team, he delivered 100% of the time. There was nothing like we saw with LeBron vs the Mavs team that had only one star, or when LeBron lost to the Magic when he was on a 66 win team, etc...

[Time for Change]

[KMartsCrew]

2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

This right here is the prime example why people can't take seriously any arguments about LeBron getting to the Finals so many times just to lose so often.

The Cavs' 2007 playoff run which his fans want to glorify was an absolute JOKE. Not only did they not face any teams with a winning record in either of the first two rounds (Washington & New Jersey were both 41-41 in the regular season), those were teams seriously decimated by injuries. The declining, shorthanded Nets actually gave them a good run for their money in the conference semis & had to choke several tight finishes away.

Also, the 2007 Pistons were not close to their 2006 version. Lost Ben Wallace in the offseason, started the bought-out corpse of Webber at center (hard to come up with a worst replacement stylistically for their brand of basketball), & went from 64 wins to just 53, only 3 more than the Cavs... hardly an upset.

Not to mention, if it weren't for those 'scrubs' you refer to, he wouldn't have made it to the Finals that year anyway. They actually even were the executors in close outs, see the Booby game against Detroit or Donyell Marshall raining 3s in Jersey.

Not even accounting for the softer schedule with more games against way weaker teams in the East, if the Cavs had been in the West, they would have been the SIXTH seed & would have played... San Antonio themselves in the first round. No way would they even get out of the first round. They were swept in the Finals for a reason. Not even the Nuggets or Jazz were swept by the Spurs, & no one considered them title contenders or anything close to it. LeBron & the Cavs just benefited from the conference seedings giving them a joke of a route to get there for the standards you would expect in such a run but were ultimately found out in the big stage.

So yeah, LeBron getting to that many Finals means very little if he can't finish the job against the big boys after a couple of de facto bye rounds in a joke of a conference & with a stacked super team 90% of the times. The playoff system doesn't have the 2 best teams making it to the Finals or even the best 16 teams making it to the postseason. So just a padded, unrealistic stat.

[nikster]

2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

This right here is the prime example why people can't take seriously any arguments about LeBron getting to the Finals so many times just to lose so often.

The Cavs' 2007 playoff run which his fans want to glorify was an absolute JOKE. Not only did they not face any teams with a winning record in either of the first two rounds (Washington & New Jersey were both 41-41 in the regular season), those were teams seriously decimated by injuries. The declining, shorthanded Nets actually gave them a good run for their money in the conference semis & had to choke several tight finishes away.

Also, the 2007 Pistons were not close to their 2006 version. Lost Ben Wallace in the offseason, started the bought-out corpse of Webber at center (hard to come up with a worst replacement stylistically for their brand of basketball), & went from 64 wins to just 53, only 3 more than the Cavs... hardly an upset.

Not to mention, if it weren't for those 'scrubs' you refer to, he wouldn't have made it to the Finals that year anyway. They actually even were the executors in close outs, see the Booby game against Detroit or Donyell Marshall raining 3s in Jersey.

Not even accounting for the softer schedule with more games against way weaker teams in the East, if the Cavs had been in the West, they would have been the SIXTH seed & would have played... San Antonio themselves in the first round. No way would they even get out of the first round. They were swept in the Finals for a reason. Not even the Nuggets or Jazz were swept by the Spurs, & no one considered them title contenders or anything close to it. LeBron & the Cavs just benefited from the conference seedings giving them a joke of a route to get there for the standards you would expect in such a run but were ultimately found out in the big stage.

So yeah, LeBron getting to that many Finals means very little if he can't finish the job against the big boys after a couple of de facto bye rounds in a joke of a conference & with a stacked super team 90% of the times. The playoff system doesn't have the 2 best teams making it to the Finals or even the best 16 teams making it to the postseason. So just a padded, unrealistic stat.

Thanks for proving the point about him playing with scrubs lol. Booby gibson had one incredible game. The rest of the Detroit and Nets series he averaged 7 points per game with a 35fg%. Same thing with Donyell Marshall, one hot shooting night in a blow out win (they win even if he's not on fire from 3) and he was complete garbage rest of the playoffs. They were scrubs

[dhsilv2]

The 6-0 argument is for the simpletons. Usually touted by those who've clearly never seen him play beyond YT, The Last Dance and whatever they've heard from SAS and Skip.

MJ is better than LeBron, but Finals record has nothing to do with it. As if MJ wouldn't have lost to the '14 Spurs and '17 and '18 Warriors.

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.

Yeah no
Jordan never had sub 40% shooting series.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html

Wasn't common...

[stepic]

6-6 in the Finals to lebron’s 4-6.
6 FMVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
5 MVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
10 Scoring Titles to Lebron’s 1.
30.1 PPG Career Scoring Avg to Lebron’s 27.2
1 DPOY to Lebron’s 0.
Higher Career PER than Lebron.
Better Career Defensive Rating than Lebron.
Higher Career Box Plus/Minus than Lebron.
Higher Career Win Shares/48 than Lebron.
1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.
2 NCAA Player of the Year Awards to Lebron’s 0.

Lebron has longevity, but that’s about it. Jordan had the greater peak and accomplished more in less time.

He also didn’t lose a single Finals series or even let one go to a Game 7, whereas Lebron has not only lost 6, but lost 2 where his team was favored (would’ve been 3 if not for Ray Allen), including 2011 where he completely disappeared in the Finals. No disrespect to Dirk, but the Mavs had no business winning that series. If Lebron even just plays average, Miami wins comfortably. But he completely disappeared that Finals, particularly down the stretch of games. And this was in his prime, mind you.

i know i'm a bulls fan, but it's frankly absurd how anyone could put LeBron ahead of Jordan on anything but longevity. and longevity does not make a GOAT alone - far, far from it.

[dirkforpres]

2011 ruined any GOAT talk for Lebron.

Im a massive Dallas homer, but Jordan's Bulls probably sweep that 2011 Mavs team if im being real. If you were lucky enough to watch basketball in the 90s, its not even really up for debate. Theres Jordan and then theres everyone else.

[TheGeneral99]

2006: had the 64 win Pistons on the ropes with a scrub Cavs team

2007: won vs the Pistons, like you mentioned

This right here is the prime example why people can't take seriously any arguments about LeBron getting to the Finals so many times just to lose so often.

The Cavs' 2007 playoff run which his fans want to glorify was an absolute JOKE. Not only did they not face any teams with a winning record in either of the first two rounds (Washington & New Jersey were both 41-41 in the regular season), those were teams seriously decimated by injuries. The declining, shorthanded Nets actually gave them a good run for their money in the conference semis & had to choke several tight finishes away.

Also, the 2007 Pistons were not close to their 2006 version. Lost Ben Wallace in the offseason, started the bought-out corpse of Webber at center (hard to come up with a worst replacement stylistically for their brand of basketball), & went from 64 wins to just 53, only 3 more than the Cavs... hardly an upset.

Not to mention, if it weren't for those 'scrubs' you refer to, he wouldn't have made it to the Finals that year anyway. They actually even were the executors in close outs, see the Booby game against Detroit or Donyell Marshall raining 3s in Jersey.

Not even accounting for the softer schedule with more games against way weaker teams in the East, if the Cavs had been in the West, they would have been the SIXTH seed & would have played... San Antonio themselves in the first round. No way would they even get out of the first round. They were swept in the Finals for a reason. Not even the Nuggets or Jazz were swept by the Spurs, & no one considered them title contenders or anything close to it. LeBron & the Cavs just benefited from the conference seedings giving them a joke of a route to get there for the standards you would expect in such a run but were ultimately found out in the big stage.

So yeah, LeBron getting to that many Finals means very little if he can't finish the job against the big boys after a couple of de facto bye rounds in a joke of a conference & with a stacked super team 90% of the times. The playoff system doesn't have the 2 best teams making it to the Finals or even the best 16 teams making it to the postseason. So just a padded, unrealistic stat.

Lebron's 10 or so finals appearances are obviously impressive, but I don't think anyone can argue that he benefitted from playing in a weak Eastern Conference for majority of his career.

Had Lebron played in the West he likely wins 2-3 titles and only has 2-3 finals appearances. There was some years that the West had like seven 50+ win teams while the East only had like two-three 50+ win teams.

Look at the 2015 season: Hawks, Cavs and Bulls were the only 50 win teams in the East while the West had the 67 win Warriors, the 56 win Clippers, the 56 win Rockets, the 55 win Grizzlies, the 55 win Spurs, the 50 win Mavs, and the 51 win Blazers. Even lower seeds like the Thunder and Pelicans still had 45 wins (which would have been the 6th best record in the East).

[Yank3525]

How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.

Jordan has raw box score numbers and rings arguments virtually locked up. And, surprisingly for me, there have been so many arguments for him in advanced metrics department in this thread as well.

Lebron obviously has longevity/total numbers argument locked up.

Not really sure how you may even start to approach the conclusion that there were no data driven arguments presented here, which are favoring Jordan.

I for one think that both of them have case for GOAT but this thread now has given me a question mark, what really is Lebron's argument, except totals count.

They don't actually want to have that debate because most of the advance metrics and raw box score numbers favor Jordan. They rather ignore that and pretend everyone here picking MJ is on some Skip Bayless schtick.

[Marrrcuss]

6-6 in the Finals to lebron’s 4-6.
6 FMVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
5 MVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
10 Scoring Titles to Lebron’s 1.
30.1 PPG Career Scoring Avg to Lebron’s 27.2
1 DPOY to Lebron’s 0.
Higher Career PER than Lebron.
Better Career Defensive Rating than Lebron.
Higher Career Box Plus/Minus than Lebron.
Higher Career Win Shares/48 than Lebron.
1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.
2 NCAA Player of the Year Awards to Lebron’s 0.

Lebron has longevity, but that’s about it. Jordan had the greater peak and accomplished more in less time.

He also didn’t lose a single Finals series or even let one go to a Game 7, whereas Lebron has not only lost 6, but lost 2 where his team was favored (would’ve been 3 if not for Ray Allen), including 2011 where he completely disappeared in the Finals. No disrespect to Dirk, but the Mavs had no business winning that series. If Lebron even just plays average, Miami wins comfortably. But he completely disappeared that Finals, particularly down the stretch of games. And this was in his prime, mind you.

Here's another one...

Jordan never lost a playoff series his team was favored in. So basically if he had the team, he delivered 100% of the time. There was nothing like we saw with LeBron vs the Mavs team that had only one star, or when LeBron lost to the Magic when he was on a 66 win team, etc...

Didnt lebron play amazing in the series you unfortunately listed? Horrid horrid decision to mention that one, lol

Also, wouldnt it add more to a resume to win a series where you WERENT favored?

[SelfishPlayer]

Lol just stop man Wade was unbelievable in the 06 finals. Are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell lol

Did you watch the 2011 finals? Wade was great, your guy James not so much. Just take the L man

2011 Finals the one where Wade failed to lead Lebron and Bosh to a championship so he gave the team to Lebron from that point forward so that he could win a championship not as the main guy similar to when Shaq lead the Heat to the championship?

Stop it… you’re making yourself look like a fool with dishonest conversation.

In 2006, Wade was finals MVP averaging 35/8/4. Shaq was a shell of himself averaging 14/10.

2011 Wade failed you say? Pretty sure it was Lebron who averaged only 18/7/6..

Wade was easily Miamis best with 26/7/5.

Lebron had possibly the worst finals game for a in their prime superstar scoring a measly 8 points on 3/11 shooting in a game they only lost by 3.

Andre Iguodala and Kawhi won Finals MVPs as well while not leading the team, or are you saying that they did as well?

[robbie84]

There isn't one.

Go watch this video and rethink.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

KG slightly ahead of Duncan according to the stats too? I always felt it was close (when most put Duncan way ahead).
Thanks for sharing.

[NO-KG-AI]

This isn't meant to sound like LeBron hate, he's undoubtedly one of the 3 or 4 best ever...

But in addition to the arguments other posters have made, Jordan has no stain on his record anywhere close to LeBron's choke show in the 2011 Finals.

Edit: Since we're talking data, and LeBron is probably Jordan's closest competition for GOAT in most people's minds: he put up 18-7-7 in 2011. Jordan never regressed like that on the biggest stage.

Six championships in his last six full seasons with the Bulls is just impossible to beat.

I can’t imagine Jordan ever being stifled in a playoff series to the point of being the 5th leading scorer in the series and being basically non existent.

That’s not a case on its own at all, but I think Jordan is the more flexible scorer and it’s the difference. LeBron certainly closed the gap after that point in that department but never hit the same height, and I don’t think his passing made up the gap.

Despite what the stats say, I think LeBron’s first few years in Cleveland are CLEARLY his peak, and the closest he was to being unstoppable as a scorer. A lot of people disagree and think Miami is his peak, and I think the dichotomy there is where a lot of the rational people will disagree on Jordan and LeBron, because they value different things more heavily.