Early discussion on the 2023 offseason

[Karate Diop]

Bol Bol anyone?

Might as well... Would come cheap and fits a need on paper.

[haosmoove]

I don't know why we are only discussing Simmons OR Herro. There are many other ways to construct a deal where we don't have to give up Simmons. (and additional assets to get rid of him)

Trading Simmons at the absolute lowest point of his value is not a good move. There is a good chance that he can bounce back to semblance of his old self, making Simmons the asset a less negative one. Even if he never regains his form or reinjures himself, his value will also increase because he becomes an expiring. If we attach assets to rid Simmons, what are we gaining? The player coming back that can take us from play in to 6th seed? We are certainly not going to be under the cap this summer.

I like Herro, depending on what we have to give up, I am not against trading for him. My evaluation is the equivalent of 2 protected FRPs. So if we are giving up a combination of Din/DFS/Royce, we shouldn't need to add any more picks. For similar salary, he has to be a better deal than Cam J. I believe he's the better player right now (arguable but they are at least in the same tier) and he's 4 years younger. This means that he makes incremental improvements his contract will look like major bargain.

[CalamityX12]

Bol Bol anyone?

the risk is so low, why not?!

[ChuckS]

I don't know why we are only discussing Simmons OR Herro. There are many other ways to construct a deal where we don't have to give up Simmons. (and additional assets to get rid of him)

Trading Simmons at the absolute lowest point of his value is not a good move. There is a good chance that he can bounce back to semblance of his old self, making Simmons the asset a less negative one. Even if he never regains his form or reinjures himself, his value will also increase because he becomes an expiring. If we attach assets to rid Simmons, what are we gaining? The player coming back that can take us from play in to 6th seed? We are certainly not going to be under the cap this summer.

I like Herro, depending on what we have to give up, I am not against trading for him. My evaluation is the equivalent of 2 protected FRPs. So if we are giving up a combination of Din/DFS/Royce, we shouldn't need to add any more picks. For similar salary, he has to be a better deal than Cam J. I believe he's the better player right now (arguable but they are at least in the same tier) and he's 4 years younger. This means that he makes incremental improvements his contract will look like major bargain.

I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but if we are giving up DFS, Royce, and Spencer, we are losing almost 35 points, while severely hurting our playable depth. This would seem to defeat the purpose of Herro to supplement our scoring, and then some. We lose nothing in Simmons except possible future potential, since we have had almost nothing with him. And I do not intend this as a putdown of Ben, who I like, just a statement of current reality.

[Netaman]

I don't know why we are only discussing Simmons OR Herro. There are many other ways to construct a deal where we don't have to give up Simmons. (and additional assets to get rid of him)

Trading Simmons at the absolute lowest point of his value is not a good move. There is a good chance that he can bounce back to semblance of his old self, making Simmons the asset a less negative one. Even if he never regains his form or reinjures himself, his value will also increase because he becomes an expiring. If we attach assets to rid Simmons, what are we gaining? The player coming back that can take us from play in to 6th seed? We are certainly not going to be under the cap this summer.

I like Herro, depending on what we have to give up, I am not against trading for him. My evaluation is the equivalent of 2 protected FRPs. So if we are giving up a combination of Din/DFS/Royce, we shouldn't need to add any more picks. For similar salary, he has to be a better deal than Cam J. I believe he's the better player right now (arguable but they are at least in the same tier) and he's 4 years younger. This means that he makes incremental improvements his contract will look like major bargain.

I tend to agree, simmons is exactly the type of high upside gamble they should be taking while they aren't "going for it".

that said they've had him for 2 years and they are trying to build a culture, he may not fit what they want to be.

i could see this one going either way.

[vincecarter4pres]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

[Netaman]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

very good question. for the most part it's all ice cream and just choosing flavor.

Murray is the best creator and defender on the list, but he's also the worst shooter. If Simmons isn't here that's not as big of an issue though, so without Simmons on the roster I'd be tempted to go Murray because realistically he's a 26 year old point guard capable of leading the league in steals + assists. But if Simmons is part of the plan I'm probably going Maxey or Herro because you need the spacing. By raptor/war Murray is the only one on the list to put up a 7 war season, but it was his age 25 so it's not unreasonable to project Herro (best year was 3.6 war) or Maxey (best year was 5.7 war) also doing that in the next few years.

Maxey vs Herro is tough. Maxey grades out worse defending by some metrics but better in others, and his biggest value over herro is the 43% 3 point %. How real is that difference though? Herro's 3pt% doesnt match up to what looks like an elite shooter and he has the higher shot quality grades. How much is Maxey benefitted by the gravity of embiid and harden's ability to run an offense? in a similar situation is herro also shooting closer to 45% from 3? i think i trust herro a little more as a faciliator on the point. end of the day id take either one, and if simmons is here i think id take either over murray even though i think he's the best player of the 3. i might take either of them anyway since they are younger.

Simons is a distant 4th because he's basically only put up numbers for bad teams and his defense grades out worse than Maxey.

if you are looking for pure scoring upside i think it's maxey.
if you want upside with a higher floor/more well rounded player from the heat culture i think it's herro.
if you are looking for a proven pure point guard i think it's murray.

if you want simons you might be a relative of his.

[Tha King]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

I think they are all on the same level. Murray is the most complete and could be the best overall player but he plays like an offensive star he isn't.

Simons might be the most interesting. His athleticism stands out and while defense isn't there, some impact metrics show him to be pretty effective actually. I actually wonder what he could do on a team where he's the lead guard.

[Paradise]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

Maxey is number one. He’s the best fit possible next to Mikal, Cam, Clax from on the court to off the court. Murray is second and Herro is third.

[CalamityX12]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

Maxey
Murray
Simon's
Herro

[Netaman]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

Maxey
Murray
Simon's
Herro

why simons over herro?

[Tha King]

year 2 Cam actually compares very favorably to all of them as a scorer in their second seasons, and it's not like most of them are giving you a whole lot besides that.

Cam - year 2
PPG (per 36): 22.9
TS%: 57%

Herro
PPG: 17.9
TS: 54%

Murray
PPG: 13.5
TS: 49%

Simons
PPG: 14.4
TS: 50%

Maxey
PPG: 17.8
TS: 59%

When Cam played around or below 30 minutes last season (20 games, not including the 40 point games): 17.1ppg on 47/39/86 splits.

the other thing is, I don't think the non-defending, limited playmaking scoring guard archetype is all that valuable. On a contender, that type of player is probably just coming off the bench. so if it comes down to giving up a pick for a Herro, maybe the team could be better off just developing Cam instead. In year two, he's already a three-level scorer with an ability to draw fouls.

[Netaman]

year 2 Cam actually compares very favorably to all of them as a scorer in their second seasons, and it's not like most of them are giving you a whole lot besides that.

Cam - year 2
PPG (per 36): 22.9
TS%: 57%

Herro
PPG: 17.9
TS: 54%

Murray
PPG: 13.5
TS: 49%

Simons
PPG: 14.4
TS: 50%

Maxey
PPG: 17.8
TS: 59%

When Cam played around or below 30 minutes last season (20 games, not including the 40 point games): 17.1ppg on 47/39/86 splits.

the other thing is, I don't think the non-defending, limited playmaking scoring guard archetype is all that valuable. On a contender, that type of player is probably just coming off the bench. so if it comes down to giving up a pick for a Herro, maybe the team could be better off just developing Cam instead. In year two, he's already a three-level scorer with an ability to draw fouls.

cam has tunnel vision. murray is a true pg who plays D which puts him in a different category than the others. Maxey and Herro have done it in 30 mpg roles on winning teams. Cam hasnt been good enough to get that chance. That's not JV or Nash either, he just hasn't been good unless stars were sitting and he got to be the guy.

Herro and Maxey have both shown they can harness their talents into 6MOY type roles at minimum.

Simons vs. Cam I think is more debateable. I'd take Simons the player but not Simons the contract. If Cam got time on a bad team i think he'd put up similar numbers and get a similar contract. I just dont know if either of them can translate to meaningful roles on winning teams.

[CalamityX12]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

Maxey
Murray
Simon's
Herro

why simons over herro?

At my limited knowledge I don't see Simon's contract being a burden yet.
Not injured at critical point unlike Herro.
Similar 3pt% shocking enough

[Netaman]

Read on Twitter

[enetric]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

Hey! Long time no speak...

Considering talent, contract and upside

Murray
Maxey
Simons
Herro

[enetric]

Hey guys, making my occasional appearance. Hope everyone is well. I read through the last few pages and I have a cap question I haven't been able to resolve on my own. Does anyone know if the ship has sailed on rolling Harris and/or Patty into other deals or do we have a specific deadline to do that? I was under the impression we could rework those trades into a multi team deal until 7/10. Can anyone say with certainty if that's correct or not? If so...that's 27mil in salary matching we can use in a deal without throwing Ben into a deal at his his lowest value point. And I would think, that's way more attractive to Portland than taking back Herro OR Ben. I mean we know they don't want Herro...I imagine Ben isn't exciting for them either. So what if...we can roll Hou and Det into this deal with us and Portland, find a 5th team, they give up a 1st round pick for Oneale. That's your Dame salary match, one 37mil TE no players going to Portland. Send the pick for Oneale, the rights to Whitehead, 2 more firsts to Portland. Maybe they want Clowney, or one more pick or Cam T. Now we get Dame for ourselves. We keep Ben. We keep Spencer. We keep DFS. We keep our depth...and MOST of our future picks for other moves, obviously the Suns picks are the ones we most want to keep. If we can keep from adding that extra pick, Cam or Clowney...send them the Suns TE instead, and eat Nurkic too. One of the other. That let's them get off both Dame and Nurkic and they took back ZERO salary. I imagine that has value to them. Problem of course is convincing Dame. But anyone who weighs in, 2 questions....

1- is is still doable to use Harris and/or Patty like this sending one giant 37mil TE to Portland?

2- would you do it for Dame if you are keeping our entire roster beyond Oneale and a max of 3 future firsts plus Whitehead?

[Tha King]

year 2 Cam actually compares very favorably to all of them as a scorer in their second seasons, and it's not like most of them are giving you a whole lot besides that.

Cam - year 2
PPG (per 36): 22.9
TS%: 57%

Herro
PPG: 17.9
TS: 54%

Murray
PPG: 13.5
TS: 49%

Simons
PPG: 14.4
TS: 50%

Maxey
PPG: 17.8
TS: 59%

When Cam played around or below 30 minutes last season (20 games, not including the 40 point games): 17.1ppg on 47/39/86 splits.

the other thing is, I don't think the non-defending, limited playmaking scoring guard archetype is all that valuable. On a contender, that type of player is probably just coming off the bench. so if it comes down to giving up a pick for a Herro, maybe the team could be better off just developing Cam instead. In year two, he's already a three-level scorer with an ability to draw fouls.

cam has tunnel vision. murray is a true pg who plays D which puts him in a different category than the others. Maxey and Herro have done it in 30 mpg roles on winning teams. Cam hasnt been good enough to get that chance. That's not JV or Nash either, he just hasn't been good unless stars were sitting and he got to be the guy.

Herro and Maxey have both shown they can harness their talents into 6MOY type roles at minimum.

Simons vs. Cam I think is more debateable. I'd take Simons the player but not Simons the contract. If Cam got time on a bad team i think he'd put up similar numbers and get a similar contract. I just dont know if either of them can translate to meaningful roles on winning teams.

they are all better than Cam Thomas, no arguing that. The underlying point I was trying to make was that I don't think Cam as a talent is significantly away from them. There's certainly a likelihood he doesn't reach where they are but when you factor the relatively limited value of the skillset they all bring when it comes to winning*, does there come a point where you ask, why not just develop Cam instead? I think giving up anything more than the Sixers pick (Simmons or not) would be that point imo for Herro, for example.

*Murray is a different skillset but he's so inefficient on offense, just not sure you can have him as a lead guard.

[JoseRizal]

So just in a vacuum, assuming equal contracts and asset cost to acquire them, rank these guys from most desirable to least:

Tyler Herro
Dejounte Murray
Tyrese Maxey
Anfernee Simons

1. Murray - 2 way player. Would create a team of long versatile defenders alongside Mikal, Cam & Clax. Not a consistent shooter but can distribute and defend very well.

2. Herro - great shooter and is still very young. Ideal height for a 2 guard. Still has upside potential.

3. Maxey - too small and not ideal to pair with our core. A glorified Ben Gordon.

4. Simons - also too small and one dimensional. Not a fan.

[JoseRizal]

Bol Bol anyone?

Definitely! Especially on the cheap.